Muslim father chokes daughter to near death

[jbg]

I agree with you. I think a charge of "manslaughter" would be questionable.

And it has males as the perpetrators. Seems to me it should be a top priority for everyone, not just females. To single out females and question where they are makes it sound as if it should be more of a concern of women, which simply is not the case.

I think you're missing my point. I'm pointing out the tension between the "leftist" and "feminist" view of this kind of a crime.

[Argus]

Well, the irony is, that Canada needs to import these kinds of people because "liberated" women in Canada don't want to have children, and population growth is key to economic growth.

Bullshit. If that were true then India, China, Pakistan, Nigeria and Bangladesh would be the world's richest nations.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Bullshit. If that were true then India, China, Pakistan, Nigeria and Bangladesh would be the world's richest nations.

True enough - nonetheless if we're going to promise lavish social programs we need a workforce to pay for it and Canadians are barely having childeren at relpacement rate so the model requires that we import people.

[Argus]

True enough - nonetheless if we're going to promise lavish social programs we need a workforce to pay for it and Canadians are barely having childeren at relpacement rate so the model requires that we import people.

Demographically, we need to import very few people - nowhere near as many as we do. And if we were actually going to import people for that reason they ought to be people who would help contribute, economically, to this country. Unfortunately, many of our immigrants do not. We'd also put a lot of emphasis on youth, which we don't.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Demographically, we need to import very few people - nowhere near as many as we do. And if we were actually going to import people for that reason they ought to be people who would help contribute, economically, to this country. Unfortunately, many of our immigrants do not. We'd also put a lot of emphasis on youth, which we don't.

Agreed - one of the biggest "myths" perpetrated is that Canada has some kind of obligation to act as a hotel to the world come one come all.

Bullshit. We have the right and perogative to be selective - so why not be extremely selective?

Why give passports to people who don't see Canada as a home to which their loyalties lie, but rather a convenience to call upon when Lebano- ...er...when their "homeland" becomes a bit too inconvenient.

[jbg]

Bullshit. We have the right and perogative to be selective - so why not be extremely selective?

As Canada was during WW II with Jews.

[Wild Bill]

As Canada was during WW II with Jews.

To our shame! Yet Canadian Jewry developed much of the Montreal textile and electronic business. They also made Canada their home and the idea of retaining dual citizenship with whatever european country they came from was unheard of. They were and remain Canadian.

There is something fishy about how this concept of dual citizenship has been allowed to develop. We also see cases every day of refugee immigrants who have no problem going "home" for summer holidays! It's become so blatant that you have to wonder why it's allowed to continue...

[jbg]

To our shame! Yet Canadian Jewry developed much of the Montreal textile and electronic business. They also made Canada their home and the idea of retaining dual citizenship with whatever european country they came from was unheard of. They were and remain Canadian.

Wild Bill - I am sure the Pakistani, Somali and Tamil immigrants have made a far greater contribution to Canada's well-being than the Jewish immigrants. If the Jews made such a contribution, where are the Jewish-funded hospitals and charities, for example? There probably are none. And what are the Jewish violent crime rates? Probably through the roof.

There is something fishy about how this concept of dual citizenship has been allowed to develop. We also see cases every day of refugee immigrants who have no problem going "home" for summer holidays! It's become so blatant that you have to wonder why it's allowed to continue...

What about joint citizenship for Americans and Canadians or other situations where business, marriage and other ties make same desirable? I understand your point about Lebanese, obviously.

[jbg]

Where are all the feminists when we really need them? Here is their chance to go to bat for womens rights.

Pursuing other hate agendas.

[jbg]

The left is the most intolerant of all. It claims to be "tolerant" but constantly discriminates against rich people, religious people, white people, men, Americans, conservatives and normal families.

In other words, against anything that works well.

[Dkz]

This is discussion has been nothing but a launching pad for racists to attack islam and the immigration system. Aside from the Native Indians everyone here is either an immigrant or offspring of Immigrants.

Racism is a real thing in this country. It may not be as openly out there as it was during the Kamagatamaru incident in 1914 or when David Sazuki (as a child) was jailed along with his family for being japanese around the time of WWII, but it is still out there as 'subtle' racism. I have seen it countless times at stores such as Walmart where the cashier will ask a white person about their weekend, golf, kids and everything else under the sun. When the next coloured person comes along not even a 'hi'.

What this guy did by strangling his daughter is totally unacceptable. He should be jailed and deported back if he is not a citizen. This tragedy should not be used to launch attacks on immigrants or islam as a whole. Generalizations are dangerous.

For every person that does this I can cite you Robert Pickton, Karla Homolka, Ted Bundy, Jefferey Dalmer, Paul Bernardo, Colin Thatcher, and countless others. How much did all those murderers cost tax payers in their jurisdictions?

The head scarf actually has nothing to do with Islam. It is a cultural thing that some people in some islamic countries follow. Just like how some Muslims follow the practice of marrying their first cousins. Even the concept of Arranged marriage is a cultural one. There is nothing in islam that says you have to have an arranged marriage.

Not all immigrants become citizens. Whether you take Citizenship or not is a choice. Canada even allows you to keep the citizenship of your old country at the same time.

Multiculturalism is entrenched in Canadian law and the constitution and is here to stay. Anyone got a problem with that can work on getting that legally changed. Multiculturalism that is in Canada means that people of different ethnic groups can keep their culture even amongst successive generations. They are under no obligation to assimilate. The US has a different melting pot which forces minorities to assimilate over time.

All Canadian citizens are equal before the law regardless of skin colour and equal in our constitution as well the Charter of Rights and Freedoms gives everyone who is a citizen certain rights.

Lastly, a lot of people have posted hate on this thread which is bordering on stuff that could be a violation of our hate laws. Please watch what you post. It doesn't take much for a complaint to be made and be charged for hate crimes. Ask Ernst Zundel.

Most unfortunately, it is known to happen. However, it is virtually always a case of someone who is drunk, and a habitually violent sort shunned by others. No excuses are ever made by anyone for this horrible behaviour.

Unfortunately, in certain segments of the immigrant community, this sort of thing is considered acceptable. This man will actually be applauded and lauded for his noble actions in defending his family's honour. That's not something that EVER happens in the West.

Did that BC temple ever take any actions against the man who was a member of its govening council who'd had his niece murdered in India? Haven't heard of that case in a while. But that was where the mother and uncle got together to conspire to arrange for a woman's murder when she returned home for a visit to India because she was seeing someone the family didn't approve of. As I recall this man remained a respected member of the Sikh community, which showed no great excitement over his behaviour.

That case is different from this one. Amongst Sikhs in Canada it is an isolated issue. Within the Sikh community there are 2 groups that been in conflict over values and over control of religious temples for the last couple of decades. One is 'fundamentalists' who maybe have 30-40% of the population in BC lowermainland. These people are mostly recent arrivals with a strong attachment to India, Punjab and some are staunch supporters of a Sikh separatist movement for an independent homeland in Punjab called 'Khalistan'. The more extreme Khalistani group is few in numbers. The other group who represents the majority of Sikhs in Canada is called the 'moderates'. Moderates include people like former BC premier (and former Federal Health Minister) Ujjal Dosanjh, BC Attorny General Wally Oppal, etc. These are people who have adjusted to the Canadian way of life and many have been here for multiple generations. 'Fundamentalists' on the other hand have a strong resistance to adopting Canadian culture and values. The mom and uncle belong to this group. Police in India charged them with murder but IT IS THE REFUSAL OF THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT TO EXTRADITE THEM THAT IS THE REASON WHY THEY ARE STILL FREE. This despite an official extradition treaty signed between Canada and India when Joe Clark was External Affairs Minister in the Mulroney Government. At the present time conflict between moderates and fundamentalists have died down a bit. They each have their own temples. Outside of BC there is different dynamics as the conflict is not as bad as it was in BC.

Fundamentalists' goal in life is to make it through life in Canada without learning or speaking a word of English. They want this even for thier Canadian born kids. Visit Abbotsford or Surrey sometime to see what I mean.

Edited December 26, 2007 by Dkz

[bush_cheney2004]

...Multiculturalism is entrenched in Canadian law and the constitution and is here to stay. Anyone got a problem with that can work on getting that legally changed. Multiculturalism that is in Canada means that people of different ethnic groups can keep their culture even amongst successive generations. They are under no obligation to assimilate. The US has a different melting pot which forces minorities to assimilate over time.

Welcome aboard, but not even close....no need to drag the USA into Canada's young experiment in "multi-culturalism". The US is more diverse, has more spoken languages (none officially designated by the federal government as in Canada), and 265,000,000 more people to prove it....from all over the world. What would become America even took in expelled Acadians who carry on to this day. Nobody is forced into a melting pot, which never really existed anyway.

Canada's (and America's) black slaves were not "immigrants".

Edited December 26, 2007 by bush_cheney2004

[jbg]

Nobody is forced into a melting pot, which never really existed anyway. Canada's (and America's) black slaves were not "immigrants".

The American "melting pot" is alive and well. What "forces" immigrants to melt in is the lack of a social welfare safety net. This means that if you don't get a job, you're at a terrible disadvantage.

This forces assimilation and learning of English.

[bush_cheney2004]

The American "melting pot" is alive and well. What "forces" immigrants to melt in is the lack of a social welfare safety net. This means that if you don't get a job, you're at a terrible disadvantage.

Not a problem in Canada...they give money away! The "melting pot" has long been displaced by more accurate depictions.

This forces assimilation and learning of English.

It also forces learning Espanol.

[jbg]

First, welcome aboard!!!

This is discussion has been nothing but a launching pad for racists to attack islam and the immigration system.

Perhaps because it richly deserves such an attack.

Aside from the Native Indians everyone here is either an immigrant or offspring of Immigrants.

But most immigrants historically have managed to become Canadians. My ancestors arrived in New York from what is now Ukraine, Poland and Czech Republic, not speaking a word of English. They learned English, and how to be Americans, rather fast. Some people think that modern-day immigrants don't have to learn to be Canadians (Americans, as the case may be).

Racism is a real thing in this country. It may not be as openly out there as it was during the Kamagatamaru incident in 1914 or when David Sazuki (as a child) was jailed along with his family for being japanese around the time of WWII, but it is still out there as 'subtle' racism. I have seen it countless times at stores such as Walmart where the cashier will ask a white person about their weekend, golf, kids and everything else under the sun. When the next coloured person comes along not even a 'hi'.

It's time that people stop looking for grievances to nurse, for racism under every rock. My own belief is that in the "Walmart" example a person of color who seems to adopt cultural values similar to the majority would receive the same courtesies. In fact, personal experiences of those close to me (on of the partners in my firm is black) bear this out. As for the Japanese interment, the confiscation of their property was odious. The relocation of the Japanese was motivated by the fact that we were at war, and even some Japanese have admitted that their support of the U.S. Government (in Hawaii) was less than total.

What this guy did by strangling his daughter is totally unacceptable. He should be jailed and deported back if he is not a citizen. This tragedy should not be used to launch attacks on immigrants or islam as a whole. Generalizations are dangerous. For every person that does this I can cite you Robert Pickton, Karla Homolka, Ted Bundy, Jefferey Dalmer, Paul Bernardo, Colin Thatcher, and countless others. How much did all those murderers cost tax payers in their jurisdictions?

You appear to be Sikh. If the Muslims were similarly vocal I'd agree that it is an individual issue. There is zero evidence of white support for Picton et. al. Mainstream whites arrested, investigated, prosecuted, and ultimately convicted Picton. Are Muslims leading any charge to jail this father?

The head scarf actually has nothing to do with Islam. It is a cultural thing that some people in some islamic countries follow.

It has a lot to do with the effort of Muslims to set themselves apart.

Lastly, a lot of people have posted hate on this thread which is bordering on stuff that could be a violation of our hate laws. Please watch what you post. It doesn't take much for a complaint to be made and be charged for hate crimes. Ask Ernst Zundel.

As a Jew believing in free speech, I stood with Zundel as far as fighting for his right to advocate Holocaust denial. What I don't know is why he was held on a security certificate. I suppose there were other good reasons to deport him.

Fundamentalists' goal in life is to make it through life in Canada without learning or speaking a word of English. They want this even for thier Canadian born kids. Visit Abbotsford or Surrey sometime to see what I mean.

They should then exercise a fundamental Canadian right; the right to return to a home they have more regard for then Canada.

[Guest American Woman]

This is discussion has been nothing but a launching pad for racists to attack islam and the immigration system.

That is not true. There are plenty of people here who are not remotely racist and totally support immigration.There are people who are concerned with a practice that's all too common: honor killing; and recognizing the problem is neither "racist" nor an "attack [on] Islam/immigration."

What this guy did by strangling his daughter is totally unacceptable. He should be jailed and deported back if he is not a citizen. This tragedy should not be used to launch attacks on immigrants or islam as a whole. Generalizations are dangerous.

And Political Correctness is dangerous when it gets so extreme that people are reluctant to recognize/or and admit a serious problem for fear of being un-PC, or "racist" or whatever.

For every person that does this I can cite you Robert Pickton, Karla Homolka, Ted Bundy, Jefferey Dalmer, Paul Bernardo, Colin Thatcher, and countless others. How much did all those murderers cost tax payers in their jurisdictions?

Sure there have been other murders. No one denies this. However, those murders weren't committed out of 'disrespect' for a particular religion nor-- and this is what's important/significant-- are they condoned by any part of our culture and/or religion. They are not part of any cultural groups/religion's mindset.

The head scarf actually has nothing to do with Islam. [...] It is a cultural thing that some people in some islamic countries follow. Just like how some Muslims follow the practice of marrying their first cousins. Even the concept of Arranged marriage is a cultural one. There is nothing in islam that says you have to have an arranged marriage.

It's a cultural thing based on religious beliefs; therefore, you cannot say that it has nothing to do with Islam. Muslim leaders denounce Parvez murder but defend importance of hijab (Emphais mine):

Muslim leaders yesterday denounced as un-Islamic the murder of a Toronto-area teenager who had clashed with her family, but said some parents would view themselves as having failed in their duty if their child chose not to wear the hijab.

The convener of the event, Sheikh Alaa Elsayed, said that one of the keys to getting daughters to wear the hijab is teaching them about religion at a young age.

We cannot let culture supersede religion,” he said. “If we stay away from the teachings of Islam, we will pay for it.”

Another Link which, I think, makes a really good point:

When one criticizes the practice of Muslim women wearing the burka or hijab, Muslims quickly respond that their religious symbol or choice is being attacked, but when girls like Aqsa die for refusing to accept the same religious symbol, Muslims quickly respond by saying their religion has nothing do with the death.

I posted several links about the problem of honor killing throughout this discussion. It's not just a problem in Islamic nations, so it's more than a cultural problem. One of the articles states that it's becoming a problem among second and third generation Muslims in Europe. That would mean Muslims who were raised and born in European cultures, with parents who have assimilated, yet they are taking on the beliefs of some of these Islamic nations. So it's more than "cultural." One cannot separate Islam from culture in these instances.

Multiculturalism that is in Canada means that people of different ethnic groups can keep their culture even amongst successive generations. They are under no obligation to assimilate. The US has a different melting pot which forces minorities to assimilate over time.

It's a false notion that the U.S. "forces" minorities to assimilate. The "melting pot" in this day and age is a myth. If you don't believe me, take a trip to Miami sometime for one example. I swear I've crossed the border when I'm vacationing there. So minorities in the U.S. are just as free to keep their cultures as they are in Canada, as long as the cultural practices are within our laws. Our laws supercede any 'cultural beliefs/practices,' as well they should.

All Canadian citizens are equal before the law regardless of skin colour and equal in our constitution as well the Charter of Rights and Freedoms gives everyone who is a citizen certain rights.

That would include children/women. Children/women in Canada should not face abuse and threats of death for wanting to live according to 'western culture.' And since this is a growing problem in the western world, it needs to be addressed. One cannot tiptoe around PC niceties when so much is at stake.

Edited December 26, 2007 by American Woman

[Argus]

This is discussion has been nothing but a launching pad for racists to attack islam and the immigration system. Aside from the Native Indians everyone here is either an immigrant or offspring of Immigrants.

You just know that when a post starts with this hoary old (and innacurate) cliche you're not going to get anything but emotional, politically correct drivel.

Racism is a real thing in this country.

So is sexism. But the kind of virulent sexism which is being discussed is somewhat novel to this country and culture, even if commonplace elsewhere. A lot of people feel bringing those with that kind of attitude to Canada is not helpful. You don't seem to have a problem with extreme misogyny, though.

It may not be as openly out there as it was during the Kamagatamaru incident in 1914 or when David Sazuki (as a child) was jailed along with his family for being japanese around the time of WWII, but it is still out there as 'subtle' racism. I have seen it countless times at stores such as Walmart where the cashier will ask a white person about their weekend, golf, kids and everything else under the sun. When the next coloured person comes along not even a 'hi'.

The thing is that you can be fairly assured that the white guy can carry on a conversation, whereas in all likelihood you'd have difficulty understanding the "coloured" person. This has nothing to do with racism and eveything to do with bringing in people who have little or no grasp of the English language.

Generalizations are dangerous.

Everyone generalizes, whether it's about the cultural cliches of a given ethnic group or the likely quality of a given piece of merchandise from a given company

For every person that does this I can cite you Robert Pickton, Karla Homolka, Ted Bundy, Jefferey Dalmer, Paul Bernardo, Colin Thatcher, and countless others. How much did all those murderers cost tax payers in their jurisdictions?

But those people are nuts. No one is suggesting this guy is nuts. Furthermore, those people horrified their communities. We know, however, that in Canada, there are cultural communities who respect this man's action in "protecting the family name". There was a worse incident out in BC and the murderers responsible are still highly respected in their (sikh) community and temple. Killing a daughter who "dishonours" the family isn't necessarily considered a bad thing among many members of certain ethnic groups.

Multiculturalism is entrenched in Canadian law and the constitution and is here to stay. Anyone got a problem with that can work on getting that legally changed. Multiculturalism that is in Canada means that people of different ethnic groups can keep their culture even amongst successive generations. They are under no obligation to assimilate.

So they're under no obligation to assimilate, to join us but if we don't treat them exactly as we would the rest of "us" we're racists? There's something very odd in your thinking. If it's perfectly acceptable for them to disdain our culture shouldn't we also be allowed to disdain theirs? If they want nothing to do with us can't we have nothing to do with them? Oh, of course, but that's "racist".

The more extreme Khalistani group is few in numbers. The other group who represents the majority of Sikhs in Canada is called the 'moderates'. Moderates include people like former BC premier (and former Federal Health Minister) Ujjal Dosanjh, BC Attorny General Wally Oppal, etc. These are people who have adjusted to the Canadian way of life and many have been here for multiple generations. 'Fundamentalists' on the other hand have a strong resistance to adopting Canadian culture and values. The mom and uncle belong to this group. Police in India charged them with murder but IT IS THE REFUSAL OF THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT TO EXTRADITE THEM THAT IS THE REASON WHY THEY ARE STILL FREE.

Indeed, this is true. The RCMP has been curiously reluctant to even get involved, despite overwhelming evidence. The strong speculation is that that same guy you say is a moderate - Ujjal Dosanjh, used his influence at the time as Minister of health to dissuade any kind of action for fear it might cost votes among the Sikh community. Now that the RCMP commisioner has been thankfully removed I had hoped the Tories would take action, but either the RCMP is too busy coping with its new commisioiner and he with them, or the Tories are sucking up to the same Sikh community for fear that they might lose votes.

That says something about the numbers of those who are sympathetic to this kind of murder, however. And you won't find such sympathy among the Canadian community for people like Bernardo.

[M.Dancer]

Aside from the Native Indians everyone here is either an immigrant or offspring of Immigrants.

Even natives are the offspring of immigrants.....

[Dkz]

Perhaps because it richly deserves such an attack.

Because of 9-11? 21 extremists don't represent 1 billion people. Did the world attack all of Christianity when Timothy McVeigh bombed Oklahoma?

It's time that people stop looking for grievances to nurse, for racism under every rock. My own belief is that in the "Walmart" example a person of color who seems to adopt cultural values similar to the majority would receive the same courtesies. In fact, personal experiences of those close to me (on of the partners in my firm is black) bear this out. As for the Japanese interment, the confiscation of their property was odious. The relocation of the Japanese was motivated by the fact that we were at war, and even some Japanese have admitted that their support of the U.S. Government (in Hawaii) was less than total.

What exactly was David Sazuki and his family's fault other than than Japanese ethnic origin???

That is racism outright.

You appear to be Sikh. If the Muslims were similarly vocal I'd agree that it is an individual issue. There is zero evidence of white support for Picton et. al. Mainstream whites arrested, investigated, prosecuted, and ultimately convicted Picton. Are Muslims leading any charge to jail this father?

Yea, I am a sikh.

Muslims are like any other community. They are divided. People like Tarak Fatah, a moderate leader have been vocal for years on this type of stuff and in this case he was quite outspoken.

It has a lot to do with the effort of Muslims to set themselves apart.

Canada has to do a better job of screening such people out rather than just blindly giving out visas. WHenever one of these incidents does happen it doesn't mean that all Muslims are like that. There maybe some that support it but I guarantee you a lot of Muslims are against such beliefs. The hijab is just a cultural belief that some muslims have.

[Dkz]

Welcome aboard, but not even close....no need to drag the USA into Canada's young experiment in "multi-culturalism". The US is more diverse, has more spoken languages (none officially designated by the federal government as in Canada), and 265,000,000 more people to prove it....from all over the world. What would become America even took in expelled Acadians who carry on to this day. Nobody is forced into a melting pot, which never really existed anyway.

Canada's (and America's) black slaves were not "immigrants".

Black slaves are NOT original inhabitants of this land. The Natives are. in Canada we let the natives live. In the US most of them were killed off.

Life as an Arab would suck in the US, having to constantly get treated as 3rd class citizen on flights and also being in fear of being reported as a 'terrorist' by your own neighbors.

Edited December 27, 2007 by Dkz

[Dkz]

That is not true. There are plenty of people here who are not remotely racist and totally support immigration.There are people who are concerned with a practice that's all too common: honor killing; and recognizing the problem is neither "racist" nor an "attack [on] Islam/immigration."

American Woman, before you get involved in stuff related to Canada why don't you watch your own backyard. You have leading International Terrorist George Bush who has the blood of thousands of innocent Iraqis and Afghans on his hands. He also tried to overthrow democratically elected Venezuealan president Hugo Chavez using the CIA. This same US has in the past taken over unilaterally countries like Grenada and Panama without any provokation. Even Iraq is in that category. It was all about the Oil.

Honour kilings are wrong. They don't represent all of Islam or other religions. These isolated incidents should not be used to tar entire religions as being bad.

It's a cultural thing based on religious beliefs; therefore, you cannot say that it has nothing to do with Islam. Muslim leaders denounce Parvez murder but defend importance of hijab (Emphais mine):

Muslim leaders yesterday denounced as un-Islamic the murder of a Toronto-area teenager who had clashed with her family, but said some parents would view themselves as having failed in their duty if their child chose not to wear the hijab.

The convener of the event, Sheikh Alaa Elsayed, said that one of the keys to getting daughters to wear the hijab is teaching them about religion at a young age.

We cannot let culture supersede religion,” he said. “If we stay away from the teachings of Islam, we will pay for it.”

Another Link which, I think, makes a really good point:

When one criticizes the practice of Muslim women wearing the burka or hijab, Muslims quickly respond that their religious symbol or choice is being attacked, but when girls like Aqsa die for refusing to accept the same religious symbol, Muslims quickly respond by saying their religion has nothing do with the death.

I posted several links about the problem of honor killing throughout this discussion. It's not just a problem in Islamic nations, so it's more than a cultural problem. One of the articles states that it's becoming a problem among second and third generation Muslims in Europe. That would mean Muslims who were raised and born in European cultures, with parents who have assimilated, yet they are taking on the beliefs of some of these Islamic nations. So it's more than "cultural." One cannot separate Islam from culture in these instances.

Tarek Fatah, one of the leaders of the moderate Muslims in Canada has denounced it over and over already. Fundamentalist muslims will never say its wrong. That would be like asking the Pope to say AIDS, being Gay and pre-marital sex are ok. It is not going to happen.

It's a false notion that the U.S. "forces" minorities to assimilate. The "melting pot" in this day and age is a myth. If you don't believe me, take a trip to Miami sometime for one example. I swear I've crossed the border when I'm vacationing there. So minorities in the U.S. are just as free to keep their cultures as they are in Canada, as long as the cultural practices are within our laws. Our laws supercede any 'cultural beliefs/practices,' as well they should.

The US's own laws on the book make it illegal to speak any language other than English. It might have been changed in recent times in some states but for the longest time assimilation was the way in the US and English was promoted as the only language. Over here in Canada, French and English are equally official as languages and anyone can speak any other language they want.

That would include children/women. Children/women in Canada should not face abuse and threats of death for wanting to live according to 'western culture.' And since this is a growing problem in the western world, it needs to be addressed. One cannot tiptoe around PC niceties when so much is at stake.

Again, check your own backyard first. Your country is torturing humans at Guantanimo Bay in direct violation of the Geneva Conventions and your own laws on Bush's orders.

Don't teach me about 'western culture'. I know all about it. I'm third generation Canadian and as Canadian as any white man in this land.

Before you and your boy Bush start to tell the rest of the world about democracy, why not explain how he wasn't really elected in 2000. Gore actually won the vote percentage.

[Dkz]

Even natives are the offspring of immigrants.....

They are the original inhabitants of this country. Everyone EXCEPT them are offspring of immigrants or immigrants themselves. Do we really want to get into how their country was stolen and the rights and wrongs of unfair 1-sided Native treaties?

[Dkz]

The thing is that you can be fairly assured that the white guy can carry on a conversation, whereas in all likelihood you'd have difficulty understanding the "coloured" person. This has nothing to do with racism and eveything to do with bringing in people who have little or no grasp of the English language.

Not true. I've seen 2nd and even 3rd generation people of colour get treated this way.

But those people are nuts. No one is suggesting this guy is nuts. Furthermore, those people horrified their communities. We know, however, that in Canada, there are cultural communities who respect this man's action in "protecting the family name". There was a worse incident out in BC and the murderers responsible are still highly respected in their (sikh) community and temple. Killing a daughter who "dishonours" the family isn't necessarily considered a bad thing among many members of certain ethnic groups.

That case was not reflective of the Sikh community as a whole. The part of the Sikh community that supports those actions are a minority and mostly found in BC. They are relatively new to Canada. They don't represent all Sikhs. There is nothing in Sikhism that supports killing a person like that. Nobody but the CBC is saying that these people are respected for killing their daughter. Most people I know in the Sikh community don't want anything to do with these type of people.

So they're under no obligation to assimilate, to join us but if we don't treat them exactly as we would the rest of "us" we're racists? There's something very odd in your thinking. If it's perfectly acceptable for them to disdain our culture shouldn't we also be allowed to disdain theirs? If they want nothing to do with us can't we have nothing to do with them? Oh, of course, but that's "racist".

Just because someone immigrates here doesn't mean they have to submit to the white way of life. They are allowed to keep all or any part of their religion or culture as long as they don't break laws or infringe on rights of others. Please don't expect them to become `Tom` or `Chris` or `Mike' overnight. Your laws of this country certainly don't. You can thank Mr. Trudeau for that.

Indeed, this is true. The RCMP has been curiously reluctant to even get involved, despite overwhelming evidence. The strong speculation is that that same guy you say is a moderate - Ujjal Dosanjh, used his influence at the time as Minister of health to dissuade any kind of action for fear it might cost votes among the Sikh community. Now that the RCMP commisioner has been thankfully removed I had hoped the Tories would take action, but either the RCMP is too busy coping with its new commisioiner and he with them, or the Tories are sucking up to the same Sikh community for fear that they might lose votes.

Mr. Dossanjh is a sworn enemy of the Sikh fundamentalists. I am not his biggest supporter but everyone in the Sikh community knows where he stands on certain issues. In the mid-80s he took a beating at the hands of fundamentalists on Hastings street in Vancouver. Fundamentalists later released a song mocking him and a video too celebrating the incident. You are really out to lunch if you think he would support them. He represents the people who have adjusted to Canadian life, have made something out of themselves and educated themselves. Fundamentalists on the other hand represent those who want to live in Canada exactly how they lived in India, and that includes not having to speak English.

That says something about the numbers of those who are sympathetic to this kind of murder, however. And you won't find such sympathy among the Canadian community for people like Bernardo.

What I hate is when 1 or 2 minor cases of someone of colour gets so sensationalized in newspapers and tv when in fact the majority of welfare reciepiants, criminals, hookers and tax cheats in this country are White people. Vancouver sun routinely goes out of their way to put brown people on the front page with petty crimes, meanwhile a white guy just killed his entire family and its on page 3 or 4. Don't believe me? read: www.voiceoneline.com and check the past issues of it.

[Argus]

They are the original inhabitants of this country. Everyone EXCEPT them are offspring of immigrants or immigrants themselves. Do we really want to get into how their country was stolen and the rights and wrongs of unfair 1-sided Native treaties?

This is childish. Even the "natives" are not native to this continent.

And virtually every people in history have been subjected to violent attacks over long periods of time. The strong survived, the weak failed. That is the nature of man and history.

The aborigines were a weak culture with little ability to withstand the stronger culture with which they began to interact. Sucks to be them but there you have it.

Their lands wasn't stolen. It was simply taken away by a stronger group. There were no international laws at the time, and the natives interacted in much the same way with each other, making war on their neighbours, the strong taking from the weak.

[Argus]

Not true. I've seen 2nd and even 3rd generation people of colour get treated this way.

I'm sure that can happen, however, how is the cashier to know the person is a 3rd generation Canadian? People act according to their experiences, and I very rarely run into a non-white who can speak English properly. Most of the non-whites I encounter speak a variety of "taxicab" English. I'm sure it's the same with him. The fact is the vast majority of non-whites are first generation immigrants.

That case was not reflective of the Sikh community as a whole. The part of the Sikh community that supports those actions are a minority and mostly found in BC. They are relatively new to Canada. They don't represent all Sikhs. There is nothing in Sikhism that supports killing a person like that. Nobody but the CBC is saying that these people are respected for killing their daughter. Most people I know in the Sikh community don't want anything to do with these type of people.

Possibly true, but all the immigrants who come here from India are "relatively new" so why should I not then say we should stop taking in immigrants from India?

Just because someone immigrates here doesn't mean they have to submit to the white way of life. They are allowed to keep all or any part of their religion or culture as long as they don't break laws or infringe on rights of others.Please don't expect them to become `Tom` or `Chris` or `Mike' overnight.

I don't have a problem with them not becoming Tom and Chris overnight. I have a problem with them being here for thirty years and not speaking English. I have a problem with them sending their teenage children "home" for a "proper" mate, and then raising the next generation as foreigners, not Canadians - and then sending THEM "home" for a "proper" mate all over again to raise the 3rd generation as foreigners.

And yes, they can keep to their foreign ways, and foreign dress if they want. But I am a Canadian. I prefer to be with Canadians.

What I hate is when 1 or 2 minor cases of someone of colour gets so sensationalized in newspapers and tv when in fact the majority of welfare reciepiants, criminals, hookers and tax cheats in this country are White people.

How do you know how many cheats and welfare cases are white and non white? Oh I admit the great majority of the PEOPLE in this country are white, so I suppose it would stand to reason that the majority of criminals and welfare cases would also be white. But it seems that visible minorities account for a far higher percentage of both groups than their numbers would statistically warrant. I have been to public housing areas, and the population is closer to 80% non-white in all of them. As for violent crime, street crime, well, what is there to say? The numbers are vastly disproportionate, and mostly coming from certain immigrant ethnic groups.