So much for a 'bilingual' Canada

[Pat Coghlan]

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/s...ba4&k=15034

[AngusThermopyle]

Very interesting article. Particularly the part about spending more than 750 million, in fact the talk is about spending billions. I'm also curious as to why it should be necessary to spend large amounts of money in order to entrench the French language outside of Quebec.

[capricorn]

I'm also curious as to why it should be necessary to spend large amounts of money in order to entrench the French language outside of Quebec.

This is my theory and opinion on your question. The whole problem we face today could have been avoided if the Liberals had made the Official Languages Act of 1969 applicable only to Quebec. The main reason the Act was brought in was to entrench federalism in Quebec and make French the language of operation in Quebec based federal institutions. Making the Act applicable Canada-wide was necessary to mask the main intent of the legislation, that is entrenching federalism in Quebec and maintaining Liberal support from Quebec voters. I don't think the then ruling Liberals expected or projected the impact of applying the Act across the board, that is the huge financial cost and the resulting backlash against language policies from outside Quebec. But then again Trudeau did not appear to be cost conscious on anything his government did.

That's why Bernard Lord's work will be very important. Our country has changed since the days of the 1963 Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism, and the introduction of the Official Languages Act in 1969. Reassessing language legislation and programs is long overdue. The Liberals have never wanted to revisit this question. I guess it took a change of government for this reality to see the light of day.

[August1991]

Very interesting article. Particularly the part about spending more than 750 million, in fact the talk is about spending billions.

In the article, one leader of one organization refers to 750 million. The title of this thread refers to "billions".

In fact, we don't know clearly the costs of bilingualism - and we don't know its benefits.

If Canada is to remain a confederation including Quebec, then the central government must operate in both French and English. Does this mean that airline passengers flying from Vancouver to Calgary should hear a message in French about life belts? I don't know but I suspect not.

OTOH, Canadian radio and TV programmes in French in Calgary and Vancouver make sense to me. Stephen Harper is an MP from Calgary but he's in Riviere du Loup this evening speaking intelligently in French. IMV, people around the world should speak inteliigently at least two languages if only because it's a way to understand that one's not unique, and there's indeed at least another way to express oneself or achieve a goal.

Some people are left-handed, and some right-handed.

----

As Harper said well, Canada is a country of two languages but it's not a bilingual country. We have to figure this out. (Note to English Canadians: Like the GST, the US can offer no example of a solution for this problem.)

Edited December 7, 2007 by August1991

[Leafless]

In fact, we don't know clearly the costs of bilingualism - and we don't know its benefits.

We do know the social cost of (official) bilingualism...it badly discriminates. The monetary cost of official bilingualism has been previously estimated at over $700 billion dollars by a Toronto accountant that also has been posted many times on this forum.

It is also a very poor way to forcefully perpetuate a dead, obsolete language on the ROC for no other reason than to forcefully demand a sense of Quebec linguistic respect.

If Canada is to remain a confederation including Quebec, then the central government must operate in both French and English.

Is this your opinion or can you provide a cite?

Is it really all that important if Quebec remains in confederation or not as Quebec's demands are totally unrealistic as compared to all other provinces.

[Borg]

When in kebec - if you want to do business - speak the international language of business. English.

It also serves as the language for medicine, engineering, aviation and so on.

If you want to have dinner in kebec speak the local language.

If you are in any other province the language is English despite local pockets of predominantly "other" - they all speak English.

Only the lefties and the governments worried about the vote care about french outside kebec.

Official bi-lang country?

Waste of time and money to placate 28% of the population.

When the rules change or kebec leaves things will be much better.

Finally - why worry about kebec culture - it is stronger than ever - the language police take care of that - racist policy perhaps?

Typical kebec and typical kebecers. Keep them at home behind their own border until they decide to join the remainder of Canada.

Borg

[Wild Bill]

I once worked for an American company who had its head office in Pointe Claire, Quebec. I worked from home here in Ontario and talked to the order desk daily and drove out a few times a year for special events.

The staff were all francophones but perfectly bilingual. Apres quelques molsons my high school french improved greatly but I learned a few new wrinkles on this issue.

First off, nobody seemed to care if TROC was bilingual! Outside of Quebec was "Here be Dragons!" territory on the map. Pockets of francophones in Manitoba, northern Ontario or wherever might as well have been Martians for all they ever thought about it.

So the idea of "Look! We've put French everywhere, from sea to sea! Now, don't you think you should reciprocate somewhat and appreciate what we've done for you?" was totally foreign to them. They never wanted it, thought it necessary or for the most part were aware it had happened!

People anywhere are more pragmatic than that. These folks were bilingual because it was essential to operate their business. Their daily lives were in French and they spoke English to English customers and business contacts.

If bilingualism was truly about unity it seems to have been very poorly thought out. My high school french instantly branded me a "bloke" to the Quebecois ear. In TROC they don't teach Quebec french! They teach Parisien french. It's like someone schooled in Trois-Riviere speaking English and sounding like Winston Churchill.

To try to correct one difference we used a tool to cause another! Plus etrange...

So we spent and are spending all that money to buy something never asked, not to make us more similar but to make us more different.

We do employ thousands of civil "serpents" making equal numbers of French and English government brochures and send them to places like Red Deer or Owen Sound, where they are promptly thrown out as space-wasters...

[Pat Coghlan]

If Canada is to remain a confederation including Quebec, then the central government must operate in both French and English. Does this mean that airline passengers flying from Vancouver to Calgary should hear a message in French about life belts? I don't know but I suspect not.

It depends on what you mean by "operate in both French and English".

When it comes to services like tax forms or 800-numbers, sure. But what about requiring 40% of government jobs to be bilingual, including all senior management positions? Keep in mind that there is little to no scutiny of a manger's decision to classify a position as bilingual.

Why we don't officially adopt the majority language of a region as the language of work is beyond me. A large number of fed jobs in Ottawa/Gatineau are officially bilingual, yet virtually every e-mail or all-staff meeting is performed in English. The net effect is to bar anyone who doesn't have official language results on file from applying many jobs that essentially are conducted in English anyway.

[guyser]

The monetary cost of official bilingualism has been previously estimated at over $700 billion dollars by a Toronto accountant that also has been posted many times on this forum.

Perhaps you could show us that post, or that link...$700 billion ??

It is also a very poor way to forcefully perpetuate a dead, obsolete language on the ROC for no other reason than to forcefully demand a sense of Quebec linguistic respect.

I suppose the 75 to 125 million who speak it, and the 33 nations (2nd to english) that use it might not agree that it is "dead nor obsolete".

Is it really all that important if Quebec remains in confederation or not as Quebec's demands are totally unrealistic as compared to all other provinces.

Although one may get irritated by some of the demands, the agits are the politicians , so yes, it is really important.

[Leafless]

That's why Bernard Lord's work will be very important. Our country has changed since the days of the 1963 Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism, and the introduction of the Official Languages Act in 1969. Reassessing language legislation and programs is long overdue. The Liberals have never wanted to revisit this question. I guess it took a change of government for this reality to see the light of day.

The 1963 Royal Commission on Bilingualism and Biculturalism was a Liberal effort with Quebec being an influential part of the Liberal party.

IOW this 1963 Royal Commission could have been entirely fraudulent, for the main purpose of forcing Quebec ideologies on the ROC.

Bernard Lord is a Trudeau clone in the same way he forced official bilingualism on the province of New Brunswick as Trudeau forced the French fact on the ROC.

Why Harper would have confidence in such undemocratic actions from a man like Lord is a mystery and an insult to the majority English speaking population of Canada who I am certain would be against further undemocratic Nazi style implementation of any kind of forced language legislation.

[AngusThermopyle]

I suppose the 75 to 125 million who speak it, and the 33 nations (2nd to english) that use it might not agree that it is "dead nor obsolete".

You make a good point, sorta. Your figures are off, it's actually 26 countries that use French as an official or co-official language. The actual amount of worldwide speakers of French is estimated at 77 million with an estimated 50 million using it as a second language. Since I know you will be sceptical here's a link.

Hmmm, cant seem to make it active, oh well, just copy and paste.

Still quite a few speakers actually. However French use is on the decline worldwide, except, obviously in France. For instance, Vietnam used to be pretty well French speaking as an informal second language. Now however that demographic has changed and French has entered a period of severe decline in that country. The same holds true for other countries that were in similar situations.

Its accepted now that French use is on the decline worldwide and has been so for quite some time. One reason cited has been a lack of flexibility and adaptability within the structure of the language itself. No matter how you try to spin it English language use worldwide is on a steady rise whilst French use continues to decline.

[August1991]

When in kebec - if you want to do business - speak the international language of business. English.

By that logic, Canada should join the United States and we should simply adopt American laws.

Why Harper would have confidence in such undemocratic actions from a man like Lord is a mystery and an insult to the majority English speaking population of Canada who I am certain would be against further undemocratic Nazi style implementation of any kind of forced language legislation.

Nazi style? As Trudeau once said, if you don't like to see French, just turn the cereal box around to the other side.

Leafless, I suppose that you're going to rant next about the metric system.

It depends on what you mean by "operate in both French and English".

When it comes to services like tax forms or 800-numbers, sure. But what about requiring 40% of government jobs to be bilingual, including all senior management positions? Keep in mind that there is little to no scutiny of a manger's decision to classify a position as bilingual.

IMV, the federal government is too large and it tries to do too many things. But I agree that language usage in the federal government could be rethought. Edited December 7, 2007 by August1991

[guyser]

You make a good point, sorta. Your figures are off, it's actually 26 countries that use French as an official or co-official language. The actual amount of worldwide speakers of French is estimated at 77 million with an estimated 50 million using it as a second language. Since I know you will be sceptical here's a link.

I am not going to be sceptical since figures on usage do vary.

Actually the first figures I came across said 330million, I said uh oh, I doubt those. Thats why I put in 75 to 125M.

Its accepted now that French use is on the decline worldwide and has been so for quite some time. One reason cited has been a lack of flexibility and adaptability within the structure of the language itself. No matter how you try to spin it English language use worldwide is on a steady rise whilst French use continues to decline.

Cannot disagree. English is the obvious choice for all to use in business , I just dont see the need to BS about the french language as our esteemed poster habitually does.

[capricorn]

Bernard Lord is a Trudeau clone in the same way he forced official bilingualism on the province of New Brunswick as Trudeau forced the French fact on the ROC.

I see no resemblance whatsoever all between Lord's and Trudeau's politics, including bilingualism.

New Brunswick had an Official Languages Act well before Lord became Premier of New Brunswick in 1999. In addition, language rights in N.B. were entrenched into the Charter in 1993.

http://www.legal-info-legale.nb.ca/showpub...22&langid=1

Why Harper would have confidence in such undemocratic actions from a man like Lord is a mystery and an insult to the majority English speaking population of Canada who I am certain would be against further undemocratic Nazi style implementation of any kind of forced language legislation.

Leafless, you're jumping the gun IMO. What if Lord ends up recommending pulling back the application of official language laws and policies in certain regions outside Quebec? That's in the realm of the possible and may well happen.

[Leafless]

Nazi style? As Trudeau once said, if you don't like to see French, just turn the cereal box around to the other side.

Leafless, I suppose that you're going to rant next about the metric system.

The metric system was one of the dumbest things Canada ever implemented.

The reason for that is Canada wanted to be first to have the jump on the U.S. thinking the U.S. would also switch to metric.

But our largest trading partner never did switch to metric and remained imperial and now we are sitting here with a one half of a metric system nobody wants with mostly everything metric converted back to imperial anyways for the consumer.

Canuck logic scores again!

[Leafless]

I see no resemblance whatsoever all between Lord's and Trudeau's politics, including bilingualism.

New Brunswick had an Official Languages Act well before Lord became Premier of New Brunswick in 1999. In addition, language rights in N.B. were entrenched into the Charter in 1993.

http://www.legal-info-legale.nb.ca/showpub...22&langid=1

Pierre Trudeau and Bernard Lord are both Quebecers, bilingual Quebecers.

The resemblance is the undemocratic fashion Lord presented the new Official Languages Act of New Brunswick on June 4th, 2002 in the same undemocratic fashion Trudeau implemented the Charter that basically serves Quebec ideologies.

http://www.pch.gc.ca/progs/lo-ol/bulletin/...3/loi-act_e.cfm

Leafless, you're jumping the gun IMO. What if Lord ends up recommending pulling back the application of official language laws and policies in certain regions outside Quebec? That's in the realm of the possible and may well happen.

Harper is STILL playing conventional politics and IMV will be using Lord to expand bilingualism throughout Canada something the Conservatives do not want to be seen as doing this themselves as there is no way they want to be associated with Liberal bilingual policies. Certain areas could be pulled back but my money says there will be a net GAIN.

Mr. Harper wants Quebec votes at any cost.

Lets just sit back and watch the scenario unfold.

[Leafless]

Perhaps you could show us that post, or that link...$700 billion ??

Certainly.

http://www.languagefairness.org/Cost.php

I suppose the 75 to 125 million who speak it, and the 33 nations (2nd to english) that use it might not agree that it is "dead nor obsolete".

My information says it ranks 14th and the nations mostly are not of prime importance.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/languages2.html

Although one may get irritated by some of the demands, the agits are the politicians , so yes, it is really important.

Don't be ridiculous.

Are you saying the population of Quebec are really that stupid and don't know what politically is going on?

Sadly, they are convinced French is the way to go.

[AngusThermopyle]

The metric system was one of the dumbest things Canada ever implemented.

Its obvious from that statement that you dont work in a technical field of employement. The metric system is so far superior to the imperial system that I cant even begin to tell you of the advantages. When working with metric measurements and wieghts your accuracy will be tenfold over the old Imperial method.

Keep in mind that I was born in England and spent some of my early years in South Africa and Australia before my familly moved to Canada. So I was thouroughly immersed in the imperial sytem. It was a little hard when my familly first came to Canada, I had to learn a new culture and also a new measurement system. I actually thought it was stupid, I learned it anyway.

Now I'm glad I did. Using Lasers and GPS Technology we can erect a Steel building covering acres and as tall as as required ( usually about 75 to 350 feet). Guess what? Our GPS and Lasers give us our measurements in Metric, we can use any gradient we want with the press of a button.

All new tools are calibrated on the Metric system. Metric is the measuring stick of science.

I would say that one of the dumbest things the States has ever done is to block adoption of the Metric system.

Its moot anyway, the States are Metric in all but daily commerce.

[Leafless]

Its obvious from that statement that you dont work in a technical field of employement.

I have always worked in the technical field and used imperial with no problems EVER. Don't give me your shitty metric European analogies as this is North America and Canada's measuring system should still be imperial like our single most largest trading partner.

BTW, Canada and the U.S scientific communities have always been metric anyway.

Metric is superior in this and other certain areas as it is computationally advantageous but does not beat out the imperial system for the normal everyday measuring system required by by the general population.

[Argus]

In the article, one leader of one organization refers to 750 million. The title of this thread refers to "billions".

Over time it has certainly amounted to that.

In fact, we don't know clearly the costs of bilingualism - and we don't know its benefits.

If we don't know the costs it's because the feds have been intent on masking the actual costs as much as possible.

If Canada is to remain a confederation including Quebec, then the central government must operate in both French and English. Does this mean that airline passengers flying from Vancouver to Calgary should hear a message in French about life belts? I don't know but I suspect not.

Aside from a few French nationalists I suspect most don't care. But the federal government has geared itself to the nationalists for decades.

Do most Quebecers give a crap that the federal government has a special immigration program aimed at Francophones they can recruit to live in "endangered" francophone areas outside Quebec? Doubtful. The Nationalists seem to like it, though.

On the other hand, if the feds ever tried to sustain shrinking Anglo areas inside Quebec by purposefully recruiting foreign English speakers to live there there'd be blood in the streets as the Nationalists screamed in fury.

[Argus]

It depends on what you mean by "operate in both French and English".

When it comes to services like tax forms or 800-numbers, sure. But what about requiring 40% of government jobs to be bilingual, including all senior management positions? Keep in mind that there is little to no scutiny of a manger's decision to classify a position as bilingual.

Why we don't officially adopt the majority language of a region as the language of work is beyond me. A large number of fed jobs in Ottawa/Gatineau are officially bilingual, yet virtually every e-mail or all-staff meeting is performed in English. The net effect is to bar anyone who doesn't have official language results on file from applying many jobs that essentially are conducted in English anyway.

This is pretty much true, but not as much as it used to be. More and more management positions are now held by Quebecers - er, Francophones, so more meetings are being held in French. Most of the new managers we've had over the past few years have been Que - er, Francophones. And honestly, the quality is lacking. It isn't that there aren't intelligent Quebecers - er, Francophones who can be managers, but the fact most of these people are hired in the first place, and moved up the ranks ONLY because they're "bilingual" means that you get some real losers up top who would likely never have even been hired were it not for the bilingual requirements. This goes for Anglos, to some extent too, btw. You have some real idiots who are being promoted simply because they meet the language requirements. The result, of course, is bad management. I've only been with the government a half dozen years, but the rules and procedures have unquestionably gotten far more complex, byzantine, and sometimes even absurd in terms of trying to get any actual work done. In fact, in many cases the actual work is secondary to the process. It's the process that's important, not getting the job done.

BTW, I've just taken over a job clearing up a huge mess left behind by the previous (bilingual) person - who was promoted. I and others working on it can only gape at how awful her work was (on top of a reputation for laziness), and what a mess she left things in. But - no matter - they needed someone bilingual for a higher position, and there were few people who qualified.

[August1991]

Do most Quebecers give a crap that the federal government has a special immigration program aimed at Francophones they can recruit to live in "endangered" francophone areas outside Quebec? Doubtful. The Nationalists seem to like it, though.

The BNA Act made immigration a shared jurisdiction and almost all provinces are involved in immigrant selection to some degree.

Trudeau's immigrant agreement with Quebec is one of the more positive things he accomplished. It has made the federal system defendable in Quebec on an issue that is always dangerous.

Argus, you make it sound as if Quebec Nationalists are blackmailing ROC to obtain these concessions. In fact, it is the federalists in Quebec (traditionally Liberals) who played this card. The pequistes just want out.

BTW, I've just taken over a job clearing up a huge mess left behind by the previous (bilingual) person - who was promoted. I and others working on it can only gape at how awful her work was (on top of a reputation for laziness), and what a mess she left things in. But - no matter - they needed someone bilingual for a higher position, and there were few people who qualified.

It's traditional in the government for a manager to declare victory, move onto a higher position and walk away from a huge mess. I'd say the government tends to promote people who have the skill to perform this art.

----

Look Argus, it's easy in Canada to blame the problems of federal bureaucracy on bilingualism. The English blame the French and the French feel like strangers in a strange land. Behind backs, the English say the French are incompentent and the French say the English are blockheads. Bureaucratic competition is silent and deadly.

Nevertheless.

First, if Quebec is to remain part of Confederation, then Ottawa will have to operate in French and English.

Second, even if you made Ottawa unilingual Zulu, you'd still have frustration, incompetence and mindless nonsense.

Third, under Trudeau, bilingualism became a crusade and then entered into the pantheon of political correctness. To criticize it was tantamount to being a bigot. That's sad because it really should be rethought.

When a business is in trouble, the standard remedy is to concentrate on core activities. I think the federal government is too big and it tries to do too many things. It is very, very hard to stop a bureaucracy.

Edited December 8, 2007 by August1991

[AngusThermopyle]

BTW, Canada and the U.S scientific communities have always been metric anyway.

Actually the worlds scientific comunities are metric. And no, we have not "always" used Metric in science, we'll let that one slide though.

Give it up, we're Metric and that is'nt going to change. All you can do is keep wishing for the past days of furlongs and yards. It's a law of nature, the inefficient eventually dies out. So it is with the imperial system.

[Leafless]

Actually the worlds scientific comunities are metric. And no, we have not "always" used Metric in science, we'll let that one slide though.

Give it up, we're Metric and that is'nt going to change. All you can do is keep wishing for the past days of furlongs and yards. It's a law of nature, the inefficient eventually dies out. So it is with the imperial system.

No, we are not officially metric.

Everything metric is conveniently converted back to imperial in most cases to accommodate Canadians and their imperial aspirations. Why is this if we are officially metric?

What bearing for instance does ridiculous c.c.'s (cubic centimeters) have to do with horsepower when purchasing anything powered by a gasoline engine when specifically power is the important criteria?

How much more accurate do you have to be than 15/16" when slicing through a piece of wood when the blade thickness of virtually all power saws is 1/16" of an inch?

What relationship is litres, a measurement of volume when you want rather want to know the weight? Who cares about the meaningless volume.

Speedometers in automobiles are calibrated in both metric and imperial. Why is this if we are officially metric?

I could go on but you should get the picture that North America is much different and modern than old Europe and imperial caters to Canadian and U.S. requirements much more efficiently than metric.

[Drea]

No, we are not officially metric.

Everything metric is conveniently converted back to imperial in most cases to accommodate Canadians and their imperial aspirations. Why is this if we are officially metric?

My teenage kid says he's 52 kilos... the youth use metric. I was in elementary when we converted so I still think in pounds, but use kilometres for distance.

What bearing for instance does ridiculous c.c.'s (cubic centimeters) have to do with horsepower when purchasing anything powered by a gasoline engine when specifically power is the important criteria?

Tiny engine, tiny amount of cc's = tiny power.

Big engine, lots of cc's = big power.

Easy huh!

How much more accurate do you have to be than 15/16" when slicing through a piece of wood when the blade thickness of virtually all power saws is 1/16" of an inch?

My husband runs a Planer... his calipers are in millimeters. He uses millimeters because fractions of inches are not accurate enough.

What relationship is litres, a measurement of volume when you want rather want to know the weight? Who cares about the meaningless volume.

Weight is measured in grams, not millileters, which measure volume.

Speedometers in automobiles are calibrated in both metric and imperial. Why is this if we are officially metric?

It is waaaay easier to measure distance with metric. 1.5 kilometers is exactly 1500 meters. How many yards (quickly) is a mile and a half?

I could go on but you should get the picture that North America is much different and modern than old Europe and imperial caters to Canadian and U.S. requirements much more efficiently than metric.

Ha ah ha. More modern? Efficiency is modern. Cutting a thing down to the smallest increment of a standard ruler is mudh less accurate than cutting a thing down to the smallest increment on a metric ruler.

We got 2 mm of rain today -- how much is that in inches? Would it even register on the "inch" scale?

in the grocery store the other day I felt for this old couple at the service desk. They had a bag of cashews and the man says "But this is $10!, how come so much -- it says 99 cents per 100 grams."

"But you have 1 kilograms of nuts sir" says the cashier...

he and his wife went aside to discuss it, poor old souls, they could not wrap their brains around the fact that 99 cents would buy 100 grams and that the bag they held had 10x that much. They kept the bag of cashews. 1 Kg of cashews is alot of nuts.

But

The world has moved on. And although I felt for these folks I in no way would ever want to go back to the inefficient imperial system.

Metric temperature makes more sense too. Water freezing at 0. Makes way more sense than water freezing at 32.