1 in 5 people in Canada are now immigrants

[Argus]

It's no coincidence that Canada has been consistently listed amongst the top ten countries in which to live - sometimes even in the top five.

The criteria are often difficult to understand. But in any case, Iceland is up there, too, and it accepts virtually no immigrants.

Edited December 7, 2007 by Argus

[kengs333]

Since then the anglo ontarians have learned that immigrants don't eat babies and the tension that was so evident 23 years ago is pretty much non existant.

Toronto is a far better place to live now than in 1983.

Sure, rising gun violence and crime, increased ghettoization of certain parts of the city. Big cities are bad enough as it is, but pumping in hundreds of thousands of immigrants who are not accustomed to living in such an urban environment and have poor English skills not a good idea. The glitzy, modern look of Toronto from the air is not a reflection of the increased benefits brought by immigration.

[guyser]

Stagnation means to go bad, does it not? How does staying at roughly the same population equate to going bad?

Doesnt seem to work. It either grows or it declines. This was addressed yesterday.The dynamics of a large city are different than a small one. Again, I am no economist.

Funny how NO ONE calls it "New York run by the Swiss" like they used to.

They dont? Hmm...interesting.

Twenty five years ago no one said that, in fact it hadnt been uttered at all.

Peter Ustinov said it to a G&M reporter in 1987 , a mere twenty years ago. It is still heard albeit rarely. It was said in the context that we have numerous identifiable neighbourhoods, like NYC has. I suspect you inferred an incorrect version.

Funny how NO ONE says "Boy, i wish we could live in Toronto". Toronto is a sad mess of congestion and violence where people are afraid to send their kids to schools, a place with a growing network of slums filled with an underclass of unemployable visible minorities - almost all of them immigrants and the children of immigrants.

Why say it when they cannot afford to live here? Since it is obvious you havent been here in eons, or perhaps you have w blinders on, where would these people live? There are very few homes built in TO. Condos galore going up, so there most definitely are people who say " I wanna live in TO".

It isnt you, I can understand. But plenty are. On the flip side, lots of people dont want to live here. Cant handle it and thats fine. They want space , big yards whatever. Fine , go find it elsewhere.

There were never street gangs in the sense they have them now. There was no such thing as drive bys, and if "gangs" fought it wasn't in the form of murderous shootouts in the middle of downtown.

And that is unique to this city? Considering most other cities are far worse off with crime, and are actually less safe, I cant fathom why that yardstick is used.

Invoking the Jane Creba defense doesnt work. Murderous shootouts downtown? Care to post a link?

"Toronto the Good". Remember that? No one uses it any more. Remember how people used to take pride in how clean the city was? What a laugh. Not these days. It's neither clean, nor safe, nor well-run.

Yes I recall TO the good. I dont hear that anymore. But slogans come and go. The fact that it is less clean than it was is valid. So is the fact that homes were cheaper 25 yrs ago too. The fact is , it is still clean. Could it be better, yes.

It is clean and it is safe. That you wish it weren't is fine.

So how is it better again? Oh right, diversity. That's what pops your cork. Nothing else really matters.

Naw, lots else really matters. You just want to boil it down to pissing on diversity because it works and you dont like it.

You lived in a poor immigrant neighbourhood long ago, and by your own admission it didnt work for you. So now you have an angry little attitude against all of them which you love to tell us all about. The lousy neighbourhoods, the smelly food, the "sheet" draped inhabitants ad naseum. If you want to live in polyester and eat boiled beef and potatoes all your liffe by all means...

So yes, It does pop my cork, but less so for me than all the others in this city that take advantage of it. When I want to I can enjoy any number of festivals as put on by various ethnicities and or neighbourhoods. The Portuguese festival is pretty good , the food is great, the young ladies always attractive, ok the moms not so much....Greek on the Danforth attracts 1 million people every year and the sights and sounds are fantastic. Caribana attracts 1M people , Indy about half of that.

I suppose I could go on, but it would show you what you are missing , and frankly, you dont want to see. Thats cool, you dont live here . But lots of people are moving in.

[Brain Candy]

Even if were thinking only in economic terms we still need to be super selective about who gets in. Most likely one will only contribute more to the economy then he/she will cost if...

1. They are allready fluent in either english or french

2. They currently have no diseases or disabilities

3. They are skilled in a trade or have a university/college degree in a field we are currently short on people in.

[Brain Candy]

For example,

about one in five immigrants and

their children hold university degrees,

compared with one in seven of those

who have been in Canada for three

or more generations

Before they come in or after?

I actually could agree with this, once people get integrated into the modern culture of the west slacking becomes their primary pastime.

Edited December 10, 2007 by Brain Candy

[Who's Doing What?]

To borrow a line from the White Stripes - Icky Thump "What Americans(Canadians) what, nothin' better to do? Why don't you kick yourself out, you're an immigrant too. Who's using who? What should we do? You can't be a pimp and a prostitute too."

Simple fact is we need immigration. Get over it.

[Brain Candy]

To borrow a line from the White Stripes - Icky Thump "What Americans(Canadians) what, nothin' better to do? Why don't you kick yourself out, you're an immigrant too. Who's using who? What should we do? You can't be a pimp and a prostitute too."

Simple fact is we need immigration. Get over it.

Simple fact is that band sucks, and no we dont. If we did, we still would not need nearly as many immigrants as were getting.

[guyser]

Why is it xenophobic to not want all your neighbours to be people who think your wife and daughter are whores and you're a godless heathen?

Dont live beside Catholics then .

[Argus]

To borrow a line from the White Stripes - Icky Thump "What Americans(Canadians) what, nothin' better to do? Why don't you kick yourself out, you're an immigrant too. Who's using who? What should we do? You can't be a pimp and a prostitute too."

Simple fact is we need immigration. Get over it.

This is a copout by someone who either couldn't be bothered to think things through - or doesn't have the intellectual wherewithal to do so.

We need immigration? Unlikely anyone can make that case. It's possible, but unlikely. Do we need the immigration we have? No one can make that case. No one has even tried. It is bad for Canada economically, culturally and environmentally.

[AngusThermopyle]

Simple fact is we need immigration. Get over it.

Thats a highly debatable statement, one I certainly cant answer conclusively.

What I do know with certainty is that we don't need crap like the white stripes assail our ear drums with. A truly horrible band, all two of them.

[Michael Hardner]

Argus,

I ask honestly - why is it bad economically ? More people means more demand for goods and services. The people that come here work and create economic benefit for those who pay their salaries and those who sell them things.

What am I missing ?

[Wild Bill]

Argus,

I ask honestly - why is it bad economically ? More people means more demand for goods and services. The people that come here work and create economic benefit for those who pay their salaries and those who sell them things.

What am I missing ?

What are you missing? I would say that you're not making a distinction between primary and secondary industries as foundations for our economy.

Simply put, primary industry means made, grown or dug up! Secondary means we installed, cooked, painted or taught it!

The difference is that only primary industry creates new wealth. All secondary industry has to do with handling or modifying the wealth created by a primary industry.

So you can't have a healthy economy merely by doing each other's laundry and cutting each other's lawns. Otherwise we could have cured all our economic ills long ago by drafting everyone into the postal service and have us all mail letters to each other!

[Michael Hardner]

WB,

What are you missing? I would say that you're not making a distinction between primary and secondary industries as foundations for our economy.

Simply put, primary industry means made, grown or dug up! Secondary means we installed, cooked, painted or taught it!

What's the 'service based economy' ? Call centres ?

Doesn't that provide wealth ?

What's the difference between making a toy or building a website ?

The difference is that only primary industry creates new wealth. All secondary industry has to do with handling or modifying the wealth created by a primary industry.

So you can't have a healthy economy merely by doing each other's laundry and cutting each other's lawns. Otherwise we could have cured all our economic ills long ago by drafting everyone into the postal service and have us all mail letters to each other!

Ok. How about doing laundry for other countries ?

What's the difference between us cutting each others' lawns and us chopping down trees and selling toothpicks to each other ?

[guyser]

This is a copout by someone who either couldn't be bothered to think things through - or doesn't have the intellectual wherewithal to do so.

We need immigration? Unlikely anyone can make that case. It's possible, but unlikely. Do we need the immigration we have? No one can make that case. No one has even tried. It is bad for Canada economically, culturally and environmentally.

Perhaps you could put your intellectual wherwithal into print and show us why, economically, culturally and environmentally we do not need immigrants?

I do not recall any links, or reasons , as to why you continue with this mantra.The has been a case put forth for why we need them , so lets get some balance.

[guyser]

What are you missing? I would say that you're not making a distinction between primary and secondary industries as foundations for our economy.

Simply put, primary industry means made, grown or dug up! Secondary means we installed, cooked, painted or taught it!

The difference is that only primary industry creates new wealth. All secondary industry has to do with handling or modifying the wealth created by a primary industry.

So you can't have a healthy economy merely by doing each other's laundry and cutting each other's lawns. Otherwise we could have cured all our economic ills long ago by drafting everyone into the postal service and have us all mail letters to each other!

Sounds like someone has a better grasp on this thanm merely stating good or bad. MH has some questions that sound like a good start.

Please continue.

[Brain Candy]

Perhaps you could put your intellectual wherwithal into print and show us why, economically, culturally and environmentally we do not need immigrants?

Well the environmental part is easy, you dont even need a source for that. More people living in canada= more people consuming at our rate= more waste. Culturally if you invite people with diverse backgrounds they have to either conform to our customs off splinter off into their own little communities (See Chinatown in Toronto as example) also they often bring their own traditional bias and intolerance of their own homeland into Canada. I allready went into how only certain types of immigrants will not be an economic burden. Can you come up with anything positive for the cultural or enviroment side of things from the abstract goal of "diversity" (which is really a monoculture whose primary goal is accumulate wealth and placing the individual above all else)?

Edited December 11, 2007 by Brain Candy

[mikedavid00]

Argus,

I ask honestly - why is it bad economically ? More people means more demand for goods and services. The people that come here work and create economic benefit for those who pay their salaries and those who sell them things.

What am I missing ?

If that was true, then those with the most people would be the most wealthy.

Think of how rediculous that is.

[Argus]

Argus,

I ask honestly - why is it bad economically ? More people means more demand for goods and services. The people that come here work and create economic benefit for those who pay their salaries and those who sell them things.

What am I missing ?

You're missing the fact that a bigger pie only feeds you better if you don't have more people. If you have a ten foot wide pie but need to feed a hundred people, well, none of those individuals is going to get any more than if it was a regular sized pie feeding five people. Quite possibly they will get less. Thus the fact the economy is "growing" does not mean we are any better off. Our cities get bigger, traffic more congested, we eat up farmland and forests, put out more and more pollution - and for what? What economic benefit do we derive?

A large number of the newcomers do not have the skills to be successful in Canada. That means they will be either unemployed, or earning low wages all their lives. As we are all aware, the lower your wages, the less you pay in taxes. If you have a large family to boot then you're likely getting big refunds every year, as opposed to paying taxes. So you, the breadwinner, and your large family, consume resources in the form of education, health care, etc., but your low income means you don't contribute nearly enough to pay for that.

In addition, the immigration system is very expensive. It costs billions to process all these people, and that's only worthwhile economically if the taxes they pay offsets it. But over the last ten years that hasn't been the case. Overall, immigrants are poorer and poorer as the skill set brought from third world countries falls further behind our economic needs.

[Argus]

Perhaps you could put your intellectual wherwithal into print and show us why, economically, culturally and environmentally we do not need immigrants?

I do not recall any links, or reasons , as to why you continue with this mantra.The has been a case put forth for why we need them , so lets get some balance.

Actually there has been NO case put forth as to why we need them. There have been statements which apparently are expected to be taken at face value, but no supportive links or evidence provided.

I have already, in the past, provided links to Canadian government sources which show immigrants are getting poorer and poorer, as well as links showing that the case for a demographic need to bring in massive amounts of immigrants is nonsense.

[Michael Hardner]

If that was true, then those with the most people would be the most wealthy.

Think of how rediculous that is.

MD, that's incorrect.

There are other factors affecting the wealth of countries, of course, but all other things being the same more people working, buying things brings more economic activity...

[Michael Hardner]

Argus,

You're missing the fact that a bigger pie only feeds you better if you don't have more people. If you have a ten foot wide pie but need to feed a hundred people, well, none of those individuals is going to get any more than if it was a regular sized pie feeding five people. Quite possibly they will get less. Thus the fact the economy is "growing" does not mean we are any better off. Our cities get bigger, traffic more congested, we eat up farmland and forests, put out more and more pollution - and for what? What economic benefit do we derive?

A large number of the newcomers do not have the skills to be successful in Canada. That means they will be either unemployed, or earning low wages all their lives. As we are all aware, the lower your wages, the less you pay in taxes. If you have a large family to boot then you're likely getting big refunds every year, as opposed to paying taxes. So you, the breadwinner, and your large family, consume resources in the form of education, health care, etc., but your low income means you don't contribute nearly enough to pay for that.

In addition, the immigration system is very expensive. It costs billions to process all these people, and that's only worthwhile economically if the taxes they pay offsets it. But over the last ten years that hasn't been the case. Overall, immigrants are poorer and poorer as the skill set brought from third world countries falls further behind our economic needs.

Some problems with your post:

Your pie analogy doesn't work. The economy isn't a block of wealth that we all eat from, it's measured in activity - buying and selling.

The skills to be successful in Canada are: desire to work, and some basic skills. Unemployment is low now and immigration is high.

Getting a big tax break doesn't mean you DIDN'T pay taxes, only that you paid less.

If you think that low incomes are the problem, then why don't we raise the minimum wage ? Do you think that Canada's businesses are getting a free ride with low wages ? Do you think unions should be mandatory ? I'm trying to get a fix on your political centre here.

Immigrants get richer the longer they stay in Canada.

I would say most IT workers are now immigrants. That's the kind of skill set we need, and are getting.

[Michael Hardner]

Actually there has been NO case put forth as to why we need them. There have been statements which apparently are expected to be taken at face value, but no supportive links or evidence provided.

I have already, in the past, provided links to Canadian government sources which show immigrants are getting poorer and poorer, as well as links showing that the case for a demographic need to bring in massive amounts of immigrants is nonsense.

Argus, you are correct however...

Economic discussion and debate are one of the rarest things to see on boards like this because people rightly know that there is a lot to it. For that reason, I like to ask questions of someone who knows more than me, and learn from them.

Perhaps Wild Bill will return to this thread soon.

[Argus]

Argus,

Some problems with your post:

Your pie analogy doesn't work. The economy isn't a block of wealth that we all eat from, it's measured in activity - buying and selling.

Which is why it works quite well. A larger economy does not make us richer when there are more people. More people require larger costs, too. The net result could well be negative.

The skills to be successful in Canada are: desire to work, and some basic skills.

Nonsense. Unless you measure success by simply being employed, regardless of the level of salary involved. You need a combination of good communications skills, which is where most immigrants fall by the wayside, and considerably more than basic skills. Your IT workers being an example.

Getting a big tax break doesn't mean you DIDN'T pay taxes, only that you paid less.

Or it could mean you paid no taxes. There is a cut-off point below which you do not pay income taxes, and you get reimbursed for the sales taxes you pay. Thus you are a net negative as far as the economics go.

If you think that low incomes are the problem, then why don't we raise the minimum wage ?

Force employers to pay more for a person with no skills than the economy calls for? How would that help? It would simply raise the cost of employment to everyone and then turn around and raise the cost of living.

Do you think that Canada's businesses are getting a free ride with low wages ? Do you think unions should be mandatory ? I'm trying to get a fix on your political centre here.

I think that by and large business pays only what it needs to pay in order to attract sufficient workers of a given skill level. That is as it should be, pretty much. By the way, low skilled immigrants help keep low skilled wages low. Employers don't have to raise wages for low skilled jobs because there are plenty of immigrants willing to work cheap.

Immigrants get richer the longer they stay in Canada.

That has always been the case, except now, that doesn't seem to be happening like it used to. The gap between what the job market wants and what third world immigrants often supply is too great.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Argus,

I ask honestly - why is it bad economically ? More people means more demand for goods and services. The people that come here work and create economic benefit for those who pay their salaries and those who sell them things.

What am I missing ?

No - you basically have our societal downward-sprial summed up,

1. promise lavish social programs to your populace - things they aren't willing to give up (see French riots etc.)

2. discourage childbearing - encourage women's careers and abortion; have the domestic birthrate shrivel

3. import immigrants to keep the ponzi scheme gonig

4. watch your societal values evaporate as new immigrants replace them with their own ideas of "society"

5. if you don't believe me, refernce Belgium, France, England, Germany, Austria, Italy......

[mikedavid00]

MD, that's incorrect.

There are other factors affecting the wealth of countries, of course, but all other things being the same more people working, buying things brings more economic activity...

That depends if you if follow GDP. I don't care at all about a 'countries weath'. India has a higher GDP than Canada. Do you want to poo in a sewage hole and have no store that sells toilet paper? Didn't think so.

I care about PPP most. Go look up who has the highest PPP in the world and see how big that country is. PPP is NOT necessarily tied to population.

I should note that PPP isn't accurate either, but it's the closest to what I'm talking about.

One can say that someone in France has more spending power than me and is a richer country than ours, but I want to know how many people in France can afford a large home detached, 2 cars, and have a backyard - good luck.

Most cannot even afford a vehicle at all and a mortgage is simply unatainable for most people. They live in little concrete holes, take transit, and own nothing except a designer pair of jeans and gel for their hair.

There's much more to the story than just a country's GDP. Canada is in a VERY, VERY good position with the potential to have more spending power than the Americans but we have spread our *personal* wealth thin in order to sponsor the lives of 'other people' whether those people be civil servants or immigrants.