Gary McHale Assaults a Six Nations Woman

[TFCandC]

Actually, I believe that the person in question is Lynda Powless, publisher of Turtle Island News.

http://www.rbcroyalbank.com/RBC:QtJ9aY71A8...da_powless.html

Interesting that she would just happen to be the one trying to obstruct McHale. Basically confirms that this was all a set up. And sad that such a low-life is an important media source in the community, and that she was, for some reason, considered a "powerful" woman. A fifth-rate local media source with a mere 12 employees makes one "powerful"? This is back in 2006, incidently.

You're sooo laughable. You berate your own "white" system. Your own people, for it was they, women in high standing in both the political AND business arena as well, who voted her as qualified to join their ranks with this honour. Then there's you, sitting in your little cubicle at RBC with idle time on your hands, casting aspersion upon another whom you do not even know other than from what you have seen on a brief video clip. There's just NO hope (laughing]. You more or less infer that, the other "Powerful Women In Canada" have no higher an I.Q than a box of rocks. Very, very good.

[TFCandC]

According to the CRIMINAL CODE OF CANADA:

Again, the nature of your posts suggests that you are not here to have a reasoned discussion about this issue, or anything else.

Re: The Criminal Code of Canada."

Its all well and good to beat someone over the head with The Code. However, for a people who have maintained their sovereignty from the beginning, the Code has no meaning. If you wish to use LAW as your platform, consider this; TREATIES! Ask yourself, what are they? They are a binding agreement between two sovereign Nations. Each Nation recognizing the other as defined by International law. A Treaty is a legal document whose contents will withstand the scrutiny of any International court. That treaties with Canada's indigenous peoples has been upheld in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is no small thing. It entrenches in Canadian law, that ALL treaties with Canada's original peoples MUST be upheld! There's no ambiguity in that. Its clearly spelled out and is LAW! Further, the Supreme Court of B.C. has ruled, that treaties MUST be interpreted in the manner in which the original peoples understood them to mean. This is called "precedent." It applies to ALL treaty law in Canada.

Now, the two most powerful icons of our (the Iroquois) treaties with the Dutch, French and English, are, The Two Row Wampum and The Silver Covenant Chain. These two sacred vehicles are the root of all our issues with the Crown (Ottawa) and, under International Law, are required by the signatories to be adhered to. We, the Onkwehone:we / Haudenosaunee or, better known to you as the "Iroquois" or "Six Nations," have never, not even once, broken these treaties. On the other hand, literally every treaty Canada (England) has made with us, has been broken by them. Every one. No exceptions.

From the time of the Greeks claiming to be the seat of world democracy, we, The Iroquois Confederacy are known to be the "oldest living participatory democracy on earth," for at the time the Greeks claimed to be such, women were still considered chattels. We had in place, the Great Law (which many of us traditionalists adhere to to this day). THIS IS OUR LAW WHICH WE NEVER ABROGATED NOR SURRENDERED TO ANY FOREIGN NATION AT ANY TIME IN OUR HISTORY!!!! We were NEVER defeated in ANY war with the British, the French nor the Dutch. No surrender at any time to any of these nations. Instead, The Two Row Wampum and, the Silver Covenant Chain in which we treated with these Nations, to live side-by-side in peace and friendship; they with their laws, we with our ours and further, neither to interfere one with the other. We are NOT a lawless people by nature as we have our own laws. Laws that served well and for the good of the people and EVERYTHING by consensus. Your laws are adversarial; Crime = punishment and mock any so-called attempts of rehabilitation. Our laws are; Do wrong = healing and rehabilitation, involving the whole community.

This Great Law, which served well for hundreds and hundreds of years, was diluted and nearly destroyed by the residential school system and the reserve system. Who is there who can say what we would be today, had the Crown listened to us when we said, "we just want to be left alone?" Remember, the Two Row Wampum & The Silver Covenant Chain. In these legal vessels, we trusted our white brothers and sisters. Sadly, we were wrong to do so.

Speak to me no more of your damned colonial laws.......we have our own. And they worked one hell of a lot better than yours! We hope, as a people, that we can live by them once again. In the meantime, get off our land!!!!

P.S. To verify any or all of my claims above, you need only to Google.

Edited December 20, 2007 by TFCandC

[Oleg Bach]

Re: The Criminal Code of Canada."

Its all well and good to beat someone over the head with The Code. However, for a people who have maintained their sovereignty from the beginning, the Code has no meaning. If you wish to use LAW as your platform, consider this; TREATIES! Ask yourself, what are they? They are a binding agreement between two sovereign Nations. Each Nation recognizing the other as defined by International law. A Treaty is a legal document whose contents will withstand the scrutiny of any International court. That treaties with Canada's indigenous peoples has been upheld in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms is no small thing. It entrenches in Canadian law, that ALL treaties with Canada's original peoples MUST be upheld! There's no ambiguity in that. Its clearly spelled out and is LAW! Further, the Supreme Court of B.C. has ruled, that treaties MUST be interpreted in the manner in which the original peoples understood them to mean. This is called "precedent." It applies to ALL treaty law in Canada.

Now, the two most powerful icons of our (the Iroquois) treaties with the Dutch, French and English, are, The Two Row Wampum and The Silver Covenant Chain. These two sacred vehicles are the root of all our issues with the Crown (Ottawa) and, under International Law, are required by the signatories to be adhered to. We, the Onkwehone:we / Haudenosaunee or, better known to you as the "Iroquois" or "Six Nations," have never, not even once, broken these treaties. On the other hand, literally every treaty Canada (England) has made with us, has been broken by them. Every one. No exceptions.

From the time of the Greeks claiming to be the seat of world democracy, we, The Iroquois Confederacy are known to be the "oldest living participatory democracy on earth," for at the time the Greeks claimed to be such, women were still considered chattels. We had in place, the Great Law (which many of us traditionalists adhere to to this day. THIS IS OUR LAW WHICH WE NEVER ABROGATED NOR SURRENDERED TO ANY FOREIGN NATION AT ANY TIME IN OUR HISTORY!!!! We were NEVER defeated in ANY war with the British, the French nor the Dutch. No surrender at any time to any of these nations. Instead, The Two Row Wampum and, the Silver Covenant Chain in which we treated with these Nations, to live side-by-side in peace and friendship; they with their laws, we with our ours and further, neither to interfere one with the other. We are NOT a lawless people by nature as we have our own laws. Laws that served well and for the good of the people and EVERYTHING by consensus. Your laws are adversarial; Crime = punishment and mock any so-called attempts of rehabilitation. Our laws are; Do wrong = healing and rehabilitation, involving the whole community.

This Great Law, which served well for hundreds and hundreds of years, was diluted and nearly destroyed by the residential school system and the reserve system. Who is there who can say what we would be today, had the Crown listened to us when we said, "we just want to be left alone?" Remember, the Two Row Wampum & The Silver Covenant Chain. In these legal vessels, we trusted our white brothers and sisters. Sadly, we were wrong to do so.

Speak to me no more of your damned colonial laws.......we have our own. And they worked one hell of a lot better than yours! We hope, as a people, that we can live by them again. In the meantime, get off our land!!!!

Why is it that white trash with cash have taken over all our institutions states side and here? No justice no peace - and there is money for some in the advesarial privledged judicary - take that pig man from BC - who slaughtered female human beings - they spent 70 million bucks on trying him - now convicted they want to contrinue to kick a dead horse and try him for more murders - who is this 70 million being paid too - and who will recieve the next 70 million? The men and woman robbing the public of tax money - who pay themselves should be tried of paritisitic betrayal of the public purse - the ones of "privledge" those deviate conspriators in black robes - who have come rich over dead hookers - should be tried - 70 million dollars? Some one got it - some one stole it - this creep should have been tried for a million bucks and lock up - a million is enough to pay the rent and mortage - makes me sick that the families did not benefit - but some group got 70 million and want more to put the process the pig ---------------------farmer.

[Wild Bill]

Speak to me no more of your damned colonial laws.......we have our own. And they worked one hell of a lot better than yours! We hope, as a people, that we can live by them again. In the meantime, get off our land!!!!

Oh, don't worry. I'm sure folks are going to do their best to not only stay off the disputed lands but to stay as far away from you as possible! For generations to come!

How well would your historical system work on its own, with no outside money? Or do you expect to be independent but "on the dole"? Or do you consider the money to be tribute?

Incidently, could you be kind enough to educate me further on native contribution to Man's progress? Perhaps with better tools, like saws? Or even nails? Or electric lights? Or something to lower infant mortality? Or a tractor to farm more efficiently and feed more people? Or extend human lifespan in better comfort?

The only new contribution from native culture I've seen recently is Derek Miller. The man is an amazing blues artist! Everyone, native or non-native owes that man homage!

Other than being cranky, is there anything you personally have done that we should know about?

[M.Dancer]

First they took our land

Then they raised the price of beer....

[AngusThermopyle]

Actually KFCandC I merely wanted to know who the slag with the foul mouth was. That you respond with such vitriol would indicate an extremely defensive attitude. Now why so defensive? One obvious answer would be that you don't like to see the obvious or have it pointed out to you. This Paradigm of native womanhood appears to be nothing more than a common boorish lout. Or perhaps it could be that you view a foul mouthed person as being the pinnacle of social acceptability.

As for leave you guys alone. I hate to break this to you pal but there are growing numbers of Canadians who want nothing to do with you people and your treaties. You know, those wonderfull documents that appear to be more flexible than a Romanian gymnast. I love the way you guys spout off about the law but break it at your convenience. I guess your view of the law is whatever suits your purpose at the time.

As Wild Bill said, go your own way, just quit demanding the Earth and the Moon. Hell, we'll even let you keep the wheel, makes a nice book end when combined with your "Great Law".

[jefferiah]

The guy in the video is just standing there. The woman comes up to him and says "Dont you fucking push me!" And she pushes him. There is no discernable push from the man in the video. In fact it appears as if he does not even take notice of the woman until she pushes him saying "Don't you fucking push me!" And then he looks at her and says "I didnt push you." And she says "Dont you push me you fat fuck?"

I don't understand why there is a charge against this man.

Anyone who watches that video and says McHale assaulted her has an obvious agenda.

Edited December 21, 2007 by jefferiah

[TFCandC]

Oh, don't worry. I'm sure folks are going to do their best to not only stay off the disputed lands but to stay as far away from you as possible! For generations to come!

How well would your historical system work on its own, with no outside money? Or do you expect to be independent but "on the dole"? Or do you consider the money to be tribute?

Incidently, could you be kind enough to educate me further on native contribution to Man's progress? Perhaps with better tools, like saws? Or even nails? Or electric lights? Or something to lower infant mortality? Or a tractor to farm more efficiently and feed more people? Or extend human lifespan in better comfort?

The only new contribution from native culture I've seen recently is Derek Miller. The man is an amazing blues artist! Everyone, native or non-native owes that man homage!

Other than being cranky, is there anything you personally have done that we should know about?

Ummm.....yes you sarcastic twit, actually I have. On two separate occasions, I alone was responsible for saving two lives........."white" lives. Plus, in the sixties, I wore the uniform of this country for three years and brought no dis-honour on it. And yes, Native culture has contributed to man's well-being to a degree that would likely make you somewhat uncomfortable - white being the best thing to happen to North America since the wheel. You do the research but I have this feeling you can't be bothered as you seem too comfortable living inside your small mind. Truly, the first thing Europeans taught us was to s**t and p**s in the water we drink - what a milestone in progress that was! That "box of rocks" I referred to earlier? Jump in. You'll feel right at home!! You see, I am NOT anti-non-native, just anti-jerk! Too many cherished "white" friends to be affected by the ignorance and misplaced sarcasm of one such as you. If you wish to continue this reparte with me, you had better come better equipped than you are at present.

[TFCandC]

Actually KFCandC I merely wanted to know who the slag with the foul mouth was. That you respond with such vitriol would indicate an extremely defensive attitude. Now why so defensive? One obvious answer would be that you don't like to see the obvious or have it pointed out to you. This Paradigm of native womanhood appears to be nothing more than a common boorish lout. Or perhaps it could be that you view a foul mouthed person as being the pinnacle of social acceptability.

As for leave you guys alone. I hate to break this to you pal but there are growing numbers of Canadians who want nothing to do with you people and your treaties. You know, those wonderfull documents that appear to be more flexible than a Romanian gymnast. I love the way you guys spout off about the law but break it at your convenience. I guess your view of the law is whatever suits your purpose at the time.

As Wild Bill said, go your own way, just quit demanding the Earth and the Moon. Hell, we'll even let you keep the wheel, makes a nice book end when combined with your "Great Law".

Angus, ahhh you old sweet-talker you. For one who gives a half decent imitation of a "spin-master," I'm surprised you mis-understand the definition of "vitriol." The OXFORD DICTIONARY defines "vitriol" as; "cruel and bitter criticism." To do justice to your good self, I re-read my own post to see if perhaps I had included any vitriol, but no, no such inclusion. Well written, well thought out if I do say so myself. If all you wish to do is joust with me, you're humping up the wrong leg. Go your own way in the ignorance you so obviously enjoy. I have no interest in you and will NOT respond to your posts. Being objective and open-minded is clearly beyond your ability. TTFNS!!!!!

Oh....P.S. Several (that's more than one), recent public opinion polls have clearly shown that many Canadians are supporting us more-so than you implied. Make a serious effort (if at all possible) to bring yourself up to speed on this subject will you? Thanks (I think). ROFHMBLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!

[Wild Bill]

Ummm.....yes you sarcastic twit, actually I have. On two separate occasions, I alone was responsible for saving two lives........."white" lives. Plus, in the sixties, I wore the uniform of this country for three years and brought no dis-honour on it. And yes, Native culture has contributed to man's well-being to a degree that would likely make you somewhat uncomfortable - white being the best thing to happen to North America since the wheel. You do the research but I have this feeling you can't be bothered as you seem too comfortable living inside your small mind. Truly, the first thing Europeans taught us was to s**t and p**s in the water we drink - what a milestone in progress that was! That "box of rocks" I referred to earlier? Jump in. You'll feel right at home!! You see, I am NOT anti-non-native, just anti-jerk! Too many cherished "white" friends to be affected by the ignorance and misplaced sarcasm of one such as you. If you wish to continue this reparte with me, you had better come better equipped than you are at present.

Continue what? Listening to you hurl insults and claim you've made logical points? Claim you would refute points but you can't be bothered?

Once again, thank heavens for the "ignore" button! I'd just as soon argue with a Witness at my door - NOT!

[TFCandC]

Oh, don't worry. I'm sure folks are going to do their best to not only stay off the disputed lands but to stay as far away from you as possible! For generations to come!

How well would your historical system work on its own, with no outside money? Or do you expect to be independent but "on the dole"? Or do you consider the money to be tribute?

Incidently, could you be kind enough to educate me further on native contribution to Man's progress? Perhaps with better tools, like saws? Or even nails? Or electric lights? Or something to lower infant mortality? Or a tractor to farm more efficiently and feed more people? Or extend human lifespan in better comfort?

The only new contribution from native culture I've seen recently is Derek Miller. The man is an amazing blues artist! Everyone, native or non-native owes that man homage!

Other than being cranky, is there anything you personally have done that we should know about?

Hmmm....I guess you hold the achievements of those such as Tom Longboat, Graham Greene, Robbie Robertson, Jay Silverheels, Joseph Brant, Tom Jackson, Murray Porter, E. Pauline Johnson as no account. (Just to mention a few). And I suppose too, the contribution of the famous high-walkers (the Mohawks and others of Six Nations), in constructing many of North America's skyscrapers including the World Trade Center AND being among the very first to leave their Canadian homes to volunteer in the futile rescue attempt of possible survivors during 911, of little or no consequence. Ooops! I forgot to mention the 118 million dollars +, that go into the federal coffers anually from GRE, the cigarette manufacturers at Six Nations.

Saws, nails? Ohhh.....yes, those tools you use to build more shopping malls, more sub-divisions, more factories and box-stores ....... urban sprawl. Covering over the vast farmlands and rendering tractors useless. I trust your children's children, children will be comfortable on a diet of chrome, glass, concrete and have no problem digesting money. Saws....cutting a swath through pristine habitat such as the Red Hill Valley in Hamilton.......to create a 4-lane parkway that involved the cutting of 47,000 mature trees; this, to save commuters 17 minutes in traveling time, destroying an ecological system that stood untouched (relatively speaking) for thousands of years, that was enjoyed and shared by Native and non-Native alike. We fought like hell to save it and lost to the greed of so-called progress. As I stood there, defending my land, "brave" motorists would drive by shouting racial insults and giving us the finger while advising me to "get a job." Considering the fact I was earning about $80,000 a year at the time, I found this to be rather hilarious. Just ignorant, uninformed people assuming we were "lazy beer-drinking Indians," on welfare with nothing better to do than get in the way of progress. "Uh...gee Bro', we're outta money and outta beer. What say we go siphon some gas and go stand in the white man's face at Red Hill Valley?"

There's more....much more, but as long as you keep spewing out the senseless diatribe you do, others in this forum will have no problem discerning what you really are. Duh! What ignorant s**t would you care to heap on this information? I can hardly wait.

Now, I'll fire your own question back to you; "is there anything you personally have done that we should know about?" I think many of us in this forum would like to read your response to that.

Edited December 23, 2007 by TFCandC

[AngusThermopyle]

For one who gives a half decent imitation of a "spin-master," I'm surprised you mis-understand the definition of "vitriol."

For one who performs an exemplary impersonation of a pompous ass I'm surprised you didn't know that there is more than one accepted definition for vitriol.

If the best you can do is try to pick apart others posts based on petty and childish nit picking I suggest you just read and learn. We have quite a few good posters here, they actually know how to debate an issue, rather than hurl juvenile insults. Maybe you should take a page from their book.

[TFCandC]

Actually KFCandC I merely wanted to know who the slag with the foul mouth was. That you respond with such vitriol would indicate an extremely defensive attitude. Now why so defensive? One obvious answer would be that you don't like to see the obvious or have it pointed out to you. This Paradigm of native womanhood appears to be nothing more than a common boorish lout. Or perhaps it could be that you view a foul mouthed person as being the pinnacle of social acceptability.

As for leave you guys alone. I hate to break this to you pal but there are growing numbers of Canadians who want nothing to do with you people and your treaties. You know, those wonderfull documents that appear to be more flexible than a Romanian gymnast. I love the way you guys spout off about the law but break it at your convenience. I guess your view of the law is whatever suits your purpose at the time.

As Wild Bill said, go your own way, just quit demanding the Earth and the Moon. Hell, we'll even let you keep the wheel, makes a nice book end when combined with your "Great Law".

Breaking the law? Heck, all I did was bring you up to speed about treaty law which is Canadian law. Interesting that you have decided certain Canadian laws to be irrelevant. Is that not what you just accused us of? Tell me, how do you manage to conduct your daily affairs with one foot constantly stuck in your mouth? Where you born that way or, is this a temporary condition? Gee....must be difficult when it comes to procreation. Sure hope no more of you come out that way.

Edited December 21, 2007 by TFCandC

[TFCandC]

For one who performs an exemplary impersonation of a pompous ass I'm surprised you didn't know that there is more than one accepted definition for vitriol.

If the best you can do is try to pick apart others posts based on petty and childish nit picking I suggest you just read and learn. We have quite a few good posters here, they actually know how to debate an issue, rather than hurl juvenile insults. Maybe you should take a page from their book.

Uh...gee Angus, I AM taking a page from "your" book.........just responding in kind to the puke you post here. Oh...while you're at it, why not contact the Oxford people and advise them of the other "accepted" definitions you mention. Obviously they are ill-informed and out of date. They could benefit from your plethora of knowledge. Debate? No. Its your take on the subject and nothing else. The "good posters" you refer to, are, I'm sure, those who agree with you. You are truly to be pitied. Instead, I laugh, I laugh. When they speak of the mind being a "terrible thing to waste," I think of yours....too late. Its already in a trash site somewhere in Michigan.

Edited December 21, 2007 by TFCandC

[AngusThermopyle]

I have one question for you KFC. Are you going to debate any issue? is it you intent to merely avoid debate and continue to sling insults.

Yes, sometimes I use the Oxford dictionary, other times I use other accepted dictionaries. I guess you only have access to the Oxford one though.

I could insult you tit for tat but what would be the point?

[jefferiah]

I have one question for you KFC. Are you going to debate any issue? is it you intent to merely avoid debate and continue to sling insults.

Yes, sometimes I use the Oxford dictionary, other times I use other accepted dictionaries. I guess you only have access to the Oxford one though.

I could insult you tit for tat but what would be the point?

Of course he isn't going to to debate. Because he knows there is no debate over the issue at hand here. The man did not even notice the woman until she said "Dont push me" and pushed him. To which he replied, "I didnt push you." And I am inclined to believe the man, since there is no discernable push in the video. And, even though we cannot see his hands before she makes the accusation, she doesn't appear to have been pushed at all. She doesn't move. And he is looking in another direction as if he does not see her. Then he gets beaten.

So see now the only sort of debating he can do is to call people out on minor details such as who the woman was, rather than the case itself. And call you an idiot for not knowing who she is or make a federal case out of the definition of a word, and fling insults in some vain attempt to make it appear as if he is right. All a big smokescreen to divert attention from the argument itself and from the fact that the video shows no assault.

Edited December 21, 2007 by jefferiah

[kengs333]

Hmmm....I guess you hold the achievements of those such as Tom Longboat, Graham Greene, Robbie Robertson, Jay Silverheels, Joseph Brant, Tom Jackson, Murray Porter, as no account. (Just to mention a few).

And all educated by whites, I believe.

Saws....cutting a swath through pristine habitat such as the Red Hill Valley in Hamilton.......to create a 4-lane parkway that involved the cutting of 47,000 mature trees; this, to save commuters 17 minutes in traveling time, destroying an ecological system that stood untouched (relatively speaking) for thousands of years, that was enjoyed and shared by Native and non-Native alike.

The road should not have been built, but the valley was hardly "pristine". It was surrounded by urban development and had been considerably "touched" for quite some time. In the end, apparently only 10,000 trees were cut down, and the commute time saved is somewhat less than 17 minutes. Indians arrived late on the scene, and they pretty much screwed everything up by making false claims of burial sites and claims of ownership.

[kengs333]

Speak to me no more of your damned colonial laws.......we have our own. And they worked one hell of a lot better than yours! We hope, as a people, that we can live by them once again. In the meantime, get off our land!!!!

You mean the kind of law that gave Haldimand the ability to give the Iroquois some land along the Grand River? It's funny how British/Canadian law is only legitimate when it suits the Indian. As far as I'm concerned, the British gave the Iroquois, who were really "native" to what is now New York state, the opportunity to come to Canada; now that the Iroquois have proven themselves to be utterly unworthy of the priviledge, I believe that Canada has every right not to tolerate the presence of these people. They repeatedly--like you--claim not to be under the jurisdiction of Canada's laws: that makes them foreigners and traitors, and therefore should be removed from this country.

[TFCandC]

I have one question for you KFC. Are you going to debate any issue? is it you intent to merely avoid debate and continue to sling insults.

Yes, sometimes I use the Oxford dictionary, other times I use other accepted dictionaries. I guess you only have access to the Oxford one though.

I could insult you tit for tat but what would be the point?

Tit for tat. You're right. There IS no point! Glad you finally came around. Baiting you was far too easy and getting boring. You do seem to possess a considerable amount of intelligence and yes, you have had some bad experiences with Natives. (sister, I believe). But good grief, try not to malign an entire people because of what some assholes did to your sister. You have every right to be pissed! (if all you know first-hand about the incident is true!)

Absolutely! I enjoy a good debate but keeping it factual and objective. One thing I will always tell you is...the truth. Not "my" truth, but THE truth. My initial objective was to inform, but my contribution to this debate was sneered at....as was my reference to The Great Law, which was handed down to us through The Peacemaker from our Creator, SHONKWAYA'TI:SHON, (bit of a tongue twister I know).....thus.....tit for tat. Its true, we certainly have our share of bad apples as does any culture or race. Wasn't always that way I'm proud to say but.......with the intervention of the Europeans upon contact, the imposition of European values and religion, slowly, surely, had a most negative impact on a culture that worked. Its a hard thing to hear that Canada provided the blueprint for Apartheid. Harder still, to learn of Canada's endorsement AND participation in the physical and cultural genocide of an entire race of people on such a huge scale but......the truth is the truth. Much of what I tell you comes from our own people who experienced it. Other records come from the archives in Ottawa under the 'Freedom of Information Act.' There are still thousands of documents that Canada refuses to release. No need to tell you why. I think, deep down, you may probably suspect or even know.

So Angus....all you need do is ask. If I know the answer, I will tell you. If I don't, I will say so and then.....I'll do my damnedest to find the answer. Keep in mind, I am a traditionalist. I try my very best to fellow the ancient teachings of The Great Law. One of the most important tenets I feel is, to honour and respect ALL people. Time to start earning your respect as well.

Do we have a truce? Better still......bury the hatchet and start fresh?

I hope you won't feel I am trying to make a convert out of you to bring you to the Native side of current issues. I AM hoping to simply inform you....nothing more. You can draw your own conclusions of what you will learn. I'd like to recommend a very factual and interesting book. It is touted by the Literary Review of Canada as being "One of the 100 most important Canadian books ever written." I hope you'll agree, that would seem to be a very strong endorsement and pique your interest. It centers on much of what I have already said. In that you seem to have a rather keen and analytical mind, you may very well even enjoy it as (to me) some of the financial facts tend to get boring. But, there's real 'meat' between the covers. Its available through Chapters or Cole's and may have to be ordered. The title; "A National Crime," (The Canadian Government and the Residential School System - 1879 to 1986). John S. Milloy. $26.95. Its a strong (backed by facts and evidence) condemnation of Canada's conduct toward the indigenous peoples of this part of Turtle Island. So...we can go on from here....or call it quits and let it stand. For my part, my apologies for my own childish conduct.

Edited December 22, 2007 by TFCandC

[TFCandC]

You mean the kind of law that gave Haldimand the ability to give the Iroquois some land along the Grand River? It's funny how British/Canadian law is only legitimate when it suits the Indian. As far as I'm concerned, the British gave the Iroquois, who were really "native" to what is now New York state, the opportunity to come to Canada; now that the Iroquois have proven themselves to be utterly unworthy of the priviledge, I believe that Canada has every right not to tolerate the presence of these people. They repeatedly--like you--claim not to be under the jurisdiction of Canada's laws: that makes them foreigners and traitors, and therefore should be removed from this country.

Whoa! Hang on a dang minute. Are you of the impression the Haldimand Deed was a gift out of the kindness of England's heart. No such thing. Prior to the conflict with the American upstarts, England, who knew full and well it could not carry this conflict on its own, repeatedly asked again and again and again, the Mohawks and others of the Six Nations, to side with England and fight the Americans as England's ALLIES. Please note the word "ALLIES." Not subjects! Geeze! History....get it right before you condemn US as foreigners and traitors. The facts; Without the aid of Joseph Brant, his Mohawks and others of the Six Nations, there simply would be no Canada as you see it today! We fought with you, we died with you. We helped form this country and have helped defend it to this very day! Our blood mingles with British blood on every field of conflict in that war. When peace was finally realized, England conveniently "forgot" about its ALLIES when the 49th parallel was drawn. Later, and realizing just how much the Six Nations had lost because we had freely chosen to help England, King George III ordered Haldimand to acquire land in Upper Canada to replace our original territories which ENGLAND had surrendered to the Americans. It was no gift as you suggest. We paid for every mile of the Haldimand Deed with our blood.

I don't mean to intentionally insult you but, its as I said before, a little knowledge in the wrong hands is a dangerous thing. By all means, join in on the fray but puh-leeze, know what you are talking about because, as it stands right now.....you simply don't! An' dats da troot! Look it up...Google it....read it. Just key in Haldimand Grant-deed - whatever. You don't have to take just my word for it. Its not hard to find the historical facts which support what I have just told you 100%! I hope when you finally do discover the truth, you're mature enough to say......"crap! I didn't know that!" If you can come back to me and say you have read, researched the Haldimand Deed and STILL stand by what you have posted above........I'll have to assume you have a strange mind with an uncanny ability to twist documented, historical fact and, I'll just shake my head and ignore you in

any future debate on the subject.

[TFCandC]

And all educated by whites, I believe.

The road should not have been built, but the valley was hardly "pristine". It was surrounded by urban development and had been considerably "touched" for quite some time. In the end, apparently only 10,000 trees were cut down, and the commute time saved is somewhat less than 17 minutes. Indians arrived late on the scene, and they pretty much screwed everything up by making false claims of burial sites and claims of ownership.

Oh I disagree with your comment "...had been considerably touched for some time." Yes, in part you are right. The touching you refer to was/is, the installation of widely spaced hydro towers and.......pathways to be used by those wanting to enjoy the Valley. Oh, some bridges as well but these, of and in themselves, did not seriously impact the Valley. Perhaps "pristine" was inappropriate in context....I can agree to that as well. Nonetheless, there existed throughout the entire length and breadth of the Valley, an ecology, unto itself.

I disagree that Natives pretty much "screwed up" everything. The claims of Native burial mounds was a natural assumption to make given the ancient history of the Valley. The Neutrals, being closely related to the Iroquois, were known to inhabit the entire area for hundreds of years. It stands to reason then, where people live, people die.

Again...you are partially right. There was this pseudo-Indian from Toronto (a white guy with his hair dyed so black, the dye ran when it rained), called himself Black Wolf, who kinda injected himself into the fight. It became obvious to many of us that he was simply a glory-hound and something of a charlatan who really did make us look bad. We did make a serious effort to disassociate ourselves from him but there he was, always back like a bad penny.

All in all, it still was a heartbreaking battle against progress. Glad you agree it never should have been built.

"And all educated whites I believe." ????? Where did that come from? I was simply replying to the post that, the ONLY good thing to come out of Six Nations was Derek Miller.

Edited December 23, 2007 by TFCandC

[kengs333]

Oh, some bridges as well but these, of and in themselves, did not seriously impact the Valley... Nonetheless, there existed throughout the entire length and breadth of the Valley, an ecology, unto itself.

Have you even looked into the history of the land usage in that area?

I disagree that Natives pretty much "screwed up" everything. The claims of Native burial mounds was a natural assumption to make given the ancient history of the Valley. The Neutrals, being closely related to the Iroquois, were known to inhabit the entire area for hundreds of years. It stands to reason then, where people live, people die.

Well, at least you have sense enough to distinguish the Neutrals from the Iroquois, but whatever the case, I don't think there is any doubt that the valley was used to some extent by Indians, but the attempt to delay construction by claiming that features known not to be burial mounds were indeed that really screwed things up.

"And all educated whites I believe." ????? Where did that come from? I was simply replying to the post that, the ONLY good thing to come out of Six Nations was Derek Miller.

It's true, isn't it?

[kengs333]

Four more people have been charged, three of whom are from Ohswekan. That Powless clan really likes to cause problems, don't they...?

http://thespec.com/News/Local/article/300670

[charter.rights]

CHCH TV at Noon just reported that Gary McHale's bail conditions stand. He is banned from Caledonia and a number of other places as a condition of his bail.

Seems he made a deal with the bail court, got out as per the conditions he agreed to and then tried to have the conditions modified. Talk about two-faced....he agreed to the conditions - essentially lying to the court just to get out - and then attempted to say he didn't agree with it. BTW he represented himself.

[noahbody]

Talk about two-faced....he agreed to the conditions - essentially lying to the court just to get out - and then attempted to say he didn't agree with it.

This sounds like the basis of many land claims.