Gary McHale Assaults a Six Nations Woman

[AngusThermopyle]

Also this reference from the garden web-site can help as it I believe captures what you and White Doors are trying to share-I hope it helps too;

Actually I'm not trying to share anything. I'm simply asking about a definition. It appears that you're making assumptions that are not justified. Again.

[charter.rights]

Oh Keng, you have yet to provide one reference for anything you have said and I am waiting just like I have been waiting for the name of the Christian sect you claim you are a member of and you claim to represent.

Now you stated birds don't live in marshes but by near or on them. You see Keng in your attempt to try mock you do what? You prove the point birds live in marshes because when one uses the word "in" it can refer to by, near or on or besides. A marsh is a region Keng and so when you live in it it does not necessarily mean you crawl inside it. SO KENG IF SOMEONE SAYS THEY LIVE IN TORONTO it does not mean they live under the ground in the sewer system necessarily although it could be a possibility.

But its a start Keng. I am glad at least we are working on understanding the English language and how it doesn' have one just the one meaning you may want it to have.

Yes Keng its possible words have more then one meaning or context. Think about that one and get back to me on it. For example the word OY. When used in regards to responding to you by me if I respond with OY it could mean one of many things depending on the context.

Now then, let us do get back to the real issue that led to my last response to you. You see Keng, you made the statement that the problem with aboriginals is they believe in things from outer space and you find their belief in the mystical and such references by you which I would suggest are not accurate a problem.

That Keng is interesting coming from a man who professes he is an expert on the New Testament and spreads the belief that Mary was impregnanted from a non human being divinity which then created a son of this divinity to temporarily reside in a human body to save we humans from ourselves.

On the one hand you yourself believe in things from outside our world impregnating a human to create a son of a God to save the world but if anyone else might have a belief that consists of something supernatural, you dismiss it as a problem. Tad bit selective are we Keng? Morally judging again?

Its o.k. as long as the tale meets your approval right Keng?

Also do not worry Keng. The aliens and demons I know are not interested in meeting you. Trust me. Neitherwould the birds that live in the marshes you refer to. How do I know this? A little birdy told me so Keng. Oy. And a second oy.

"Pathological liars never lets facts get in the way their beliefs.", Carl Jung

I'm not sure whether this is true of Kengs333 or whether he is just plain lazy or whether he is merely avoiding facts because he's afraid of finding out he is wrong. However, his participation in discussion without providing some basis for his assertions makes it discussion with him useless. I wonder why you continue to torture yourself Rue in trying to discuss or debate a subject with someone who isn't interested in the truth, or presenting the facts - expecially when his claims are so far "out there".

[Rue]

Actually I'm not trying to share anything. I'm simply asking about a definition. It appears that you're making assumptions that are not justified. Again.

Me assume something? Moi? Of course not. I was only trying to clarify a definition and make sure people spell coy with a c and not a g.

[jefferiah]

Any way you look at it, "traditional" Indian spirituality is not suited for guarding people against the vices that afflict modern society--anyone who suggests otherwise is either naive or wilfully being deceptive; whatever the case, trying to restore Indians to their forgone spirituality is, in my opinion, wrong--it's destructive to the individual, as well as to society.

Personally, I think that most natives are not traditionally spiritual.

[charter.rights]

Personally, I think that most natives are not traditionally spiritual.

Generally speaking, neither are the majority of Christians. Many are anally retentive types and many more are hypocrites. I'd say as a religion Christianity appears doomed.

Funny enoug, native spirituality is on the upswing...and catching many former Christians as well.

[AngusThermopyle]

Funny enoug, native spirituality is on the upswing...and catching many former Christians as well.

Personally I have seen no evidence of this, thats just a personal observation though.

I guess some people need some kind of myth to hold on to, be it Christianity or Native Spirituality, or Islamic god told us to conquer the world-iality.

[kengs333]

Personally, I think that most natives are not traditionally spiritual.

Most of it's contrived anyway, to make it look as though Indians at one with nature and all loving and respectful about life and each other. If you look at ethnographical accounts of ceremonial practices when Indians still maintained their "traditional" lifestyles, this spirituality was somewhat more gruesome.

[charter.rights]

Most of it's contrived anyway, to make it look as though Indians at one with nature and all loving and respectful about life and each other. If you look at ethnographical accounts of ceremonial practices when Indians still maintained their "traditional" lifestyles, this spirituality was somewhat more gruesome.

Ya. I see your point. It is kinda like the ritualized cannibalism practiced by Christians today. And we can't forget the burning of witches, and the tortures of the dark ages, either. Oh and what about the the violence - murder and abuse - that Christians imposed on native children during the residential schools - the last closing in th 1980's. In all of that there certainly doesn't appear to be any spiritual redemption, or a sign that Christians were connected to a benevolent God.

[Wild Bill]

Ya. I see your point. It is kinda like the ritualized cannibalism practiced by Christians today. And we can't forget the burning of witches, and the tortures of the dark ages, either. Oh and what about the the violence - murder and abuse - that Christians imposed on native children during the residential schools - the last closing in th 1980's. In all of that there certainly doesn't appear to be any spiritual redemption, or a sign that Christians were connected to a benevolent God.

What's your point? The initial premise was that there is a "fairy tale" history out there that Natives were and are pastoral flower children who lived in bliss, in harmony with nature. You respond with an attack citing some negative examples of Christian history.

What happened to the initial premise? Seems to me you're simply pulling the old trick of "Forget that! My brother did something worse once so forget all about me and focus on him!"

EVERYBODY has some negative issues in their cultural history! That's because we (hopefully!) have improved over the years! Somebody's been swallowing a lot crap about how Man is born as a "Noble Savage".

The real issue is how well we deal with reality and what we do TODAY! However, if you define reality as something you can just change at whim according to how you feel about it then I guess there's not much point.

[charter.rights]

What's your point? The initial premise was that there is a "fairy tale" history out there that Natives were and are pastoral flower children who lived in bliss, in harmony with nature. You respond with an attack citing some negative examples of Christian history.

What happened to the initial premise? Seems to me you're simply pulling the old trick of "Forget that! My brother did something worse once so forget all about me and focus on him!"

EVERYBODY has some negative issues in their cultural history! That's because we (hopefully!) have improved over the years! Somebody's been swallowing a lot crap about how Man is born as a "Noble Savage".

The real issue is how well we deal with reality and what we do TODAY! However, if you define reality as something you can just change at whim according to how you feel about it then I guess there's not much point.

I don't doubt there are nasty things that people did. However, I don't ever recall any of the stories about it say that is was because of their spirituality, or their religious beliefs. On the other hand Christianity is filled with conquests, abuses and murders, torture and thefts that were done in the name of Christianity.

If we want to stand in that kind of pious judgment then we had better be prepared to examine our immoral and spiritually corrupt systems. The sad thing that people fail to notice is that most of what happened in the past in the name of Jesus, could just as easily happen again today because the thinking behind Christianity is still ever-present in society today. And when one takes a full examination of native history, culture and practices as I have, there is more good that comes out of it than naught. I can't say the same thing about my years spent examining Christianity from an outside perspective and the decades of Bible study I have taken prior to that.

"Somebody's been swallowing a lot crap about how Man is born as a "Noble Savage"."

I suppose somebody's been swallowing a load of crap about how Man is born as an inherent sinner. At least one looks for the good in the man, and the other point of view looks for his evil.

[Dog]

I went back and read all 11 pages of this thread but i now relize that i could have stopped reading after the first page or two and missed very little of the gist of this thread . I have several conections to this situation and have been to Caladonia to see for myself what is going on .

First my family is very involved in motorsports and we particapated in the friday night racing that takes place at Oshweken Speedway on the Six Nations reserve . That was before all hell broke loose out there and it was made clear on three sperate ocassions by natives that we were not welcome there anymore . I would estimate that over the course of a racing season my family and race team spent around 6k to 8k on the Six Nations reserve during 2006 . In 2007 we travelled to the track only once as spectators and spent about 100 dollars on the reserve .

I was sympathetic to the natives until they smashed the side window out of our hauler , spit on my daughter and verabally assaulted my family , these being 3 seperate events during the 2006 season . I know this is not how all natives feel and it is not all natives doing this but it was enough to make our race teams and several others quit attending the races at Oshweken . The Styres family who own the track (natives) are very nice people and tried to persuade us and others not to leave the track but i felt that i must consider the safety of my team and family first and formost. It is a shame that a thriving native business like Oshweken Speedway now has low car counts and low weekly spectator attendance because of the actions of a few idiots . I must say after reading the comments by some of the people from the Six Nations on here i see we made the right decision in not returning to race there any more .

Congrats to the natives who destroyed my property and assaulted my family you managed not only too turn people that were on your side or atlest sympathetic to your cause dead against you not to mention drive 1000s of dollars out of your reserve .

[Rue]

I went back and read all 11 pages of this thread but i now relize that i could have stopped reading after the first page or two and missed very little of the gist of this thread . I have several conections to this situation and have been to Caladonia to see for myself what is going on .

I appreciate your blunt honesty and ability to be honest about your anger and not couch it but also remain logical and level-headed with such a personal incident. You are a far better man than me for being able to write as you did with dettached perspective.

I really regret your daughter had that happen to her in your presence. You are clearly someone with intelligence to be able to control your anger and not use it to retaliate. I applaud that.

I wish there was some way for someone from the aboriginal community to speak with you and your daughter directly as to what happened.

Edited January 10, 2008 by Rue

[Rue]

Most of it's contrived anyway, to make it look as though Indians at one with nature and all loving and respectful about life and each other. If you look at ethnographical accounts of ceremonial practices when Indians still maintained their "traditional" lifestyles, this spirituality was somewhat more gruesome.

What is "it"?

How do you know "its: is "contrived"?

You do not define what "it" is or the method from which you were able to determine "it" was contrived.

So in the absence of such references,all you do is utter a personal feeling with no basis of reference for anyone to understand.

You stated

" (its contrived) to make ot look as though Indians (sic) at one with nature and all loving and respectful about Life and each other."

The above remark again shows you continue to use a derogatory term of reference (Indians) which you know is racist and ignorant and then make the assumption that "Indians" sit around deliberately lying to make themselves look loving and respectful.

That Sir is a hate comment. Its a comment not based on any reference or fact, just you stating "Indians" are savage liars. That is all you said. "Indians" are lying savages. You could have stated it that simply.

You stated;

"if you look at ethnographical accounts of ceremonial practices when "Indians" still maintained their

"traditiona;" lifestyles, the spirituality was more gruesome".

Again you make a statement with no reference. You do not provide reference for the account you claim to be repeating. This Sir, again is a deliberate continued exercise you have used since you have come on this forum, to refer to alleged sources for your opinions, but never provide a reference for them.

Again Sir I state, in the absence of a reference and because of your continuous decision to not provide references anyone reading your remarks has the right to assume you fabricate them, i.e., you make them up as you go along and simply couch your subjective hatred with references to alleged sources to make them sound as if they have a basis when they do not.

What is your source Keng. What I find interesting is that if a cultural anthropologist would have in fact done an ethnographic study, it would have been based on a specific local and community and so could not as you are now doing use it to negatively generalize against all aboriginal communities. So right off the bat you appear to be fabricating because a specific field study would not be a basis to form a generalization about a society and if anything would simply be a field report as to what the anthropoligist witnessed-no more, no less.

As well Keng, if you actually knew what an ethnographer does you would know they are are participant observers. They actually make it a point to take part in events they study to help them understand the behavior they are observing.

So Keng you would have us believe the ethnographers you quote engaged in violence and savagery.

This is why Keng I will make it a point each and every time you come on this forum to post hatred to challenge you.

Either provide the reference or admit you are fabricating.

[Rue]

What's your point? The initial premise was that there is a "fairy tale" history out there that Natives were and are pastoral flower children who lived in bliss, in harmony with nature. You respond with an attack citing some negative examples of Christian history.

What happened to the initial premise? Seems to me you're simply pulling the old trick of "Forget that! My brother did something worse once so forget all about me and focus on him!"

EVERYBODY has some negative issues in their cultural history! That's because we (hopefully!) have improved over the years! Somebody's been swallowing a lot crap about how Man is born as a "Noble Savage".

The real issue is how well we deal with reality and what we do TODAY! However, if you define reality as something you can just change at whim according to how you feel about it then I guess there's not much point.

The Noble Savage stereotype comes from non aboriginals not aboriginals. Aboriginals never claimed to be noble savages or flower children.

It also does not make one a believer in the Noble Savage stereotype because they speak using a respectful tone for aboriginal traditions and customs.

That said I think you are dead on when you say we all have our cultural shit. Show me a human I will show you baggage and shit. On that we agree. Every society has its shit and shits.

That said my respect for aboriginal traditions and customs is not a blanket one based on guilt or the concept they are all flower children. Its based on the simple premises that I treat them the way I want people to treat me. No more, no less. All the rest is just me telling Keng he can't burn his cross on my lawn and telling you my only rule for you coming on my lawn is that you don't urinate on my bushes or try sell me something. Other then that I am easy.

[kengs333]

I must say after reading the comments by some of the people from the Six Nations on here i see we made the right decision in not returning to race there any more .

A very interesting story.

To the best of my knowledge, there are no members of Six Nations who post on here regularly. There were (and may still be) several who would not go out of their way to dispell the assumption that they were members of Six Nations; but in reality they are "white" and apparently have some sort of agenda other than "Native Rights". They've been attracted to the issue because it allows them to sow discord and instigate strife. If you go over to the reclaimation info message forum you'll find them posting as "timmer" and "granny" (and I'm sure there are a few others, as well, but I dn't know or really care who they are).

[Rue]

You stated;

"They've been attracted to the issue because it allows them to sow discord and instigate strife. "

What attracted you other then the above to this issue? All your comments to date have done nothing more then utter racist stereotypes of aboriginals and remarks that clearly show contempt for their values. Before you point your fingers at others read back your own words.

Once again you try fabricate a category of sinner based on your subjective speculation a and then engage in the exact same thing you claim this enemy is engaged in.

Speak for your own words and their implications you are in no position to speculate on anyone's motivation but your own.

[AngusThermopyle]

Speak for your own words and their implications you are in no position to speculate on anyone's motivation but your own.

Good point Rue.

I too have been negative about the Caledonia issue. The reason being that Caledonia is a farce, any reasonable person should be able to discern this. The rhetoric we've heard from both sides on this issue has been heated and absolute.

I have no doubt that there are good people among the natives in Caledonia, however there are a lot who will lie, resort to violence and take a stance that is indefensible. Many times people have resorted to sheer fabrication in order to defend their point. These tactics do nothing to advance their cause, rather they actually hinder it by painting all with the same brush.

Having said that I will state that I do not support the Natives in Caledonia. I find their methods are disingenuous at best and am frankly repulsed by the lies and the lengths they will go to in order to defend them. Not to mention the fact that imported Natives are involved on Canadian soil. They, quite frankly, should either be jailed or sent packing back to the States.

I do attempt to be objective about the issue, this objectivity has led me to an opposed stance, I cannot in any way at this point offer any support for this cause. Yes, treaties and land issues should be resolved in an equitable fashion. That is not happening, instead we see a bizarre form of Native extortion being employed. I fail to see how they can expect any support from rational people when they engage in such tactics.

[Rue]

Good point Rue.

I too have been negative about the Caledonia issue. The reason being that Caledonia is a farce, any reasonable person should be able to discern this. The rhetoric we've heard from both sides on this issue has been heated and absolute.

I have no doubt that there are good people among the natives in Caledonia, however there are a lot who will lie, resort to violence and take a stance that is indefensible. Many times people have resorted to sheer fabrication in order to defend their point. These tactics do nothing to advance their cause, rather they actually hinder it by painting all with the same brush.

Having said that I will state that I do not support the Natives in Caledonia. I find their methods are disingenuous at best and am frankly repulsed by the lies and the lengths they will go to in order to defend them. Not to mention the fact that imported Natives are involved on Canadian soil. They, quite frankly, should either be jailed or sent packing back to the States.

I do attempt to be objective about the issue, this objectivity has led me to an opposed stance, I cannot in any way at this point offer any support for this cause. Yes, treaties and land issues should be resolved in an equitable fashion. That is not happening, instead we see a bizarre form of Native extortion being employed. I fail to see how they can expect any support from rational people when they engage in such tactics.

Thanks. I respect people on both sides of this conflict. There are good people on both sides of this conflict who through no fault of their own have been thrown into this fucked up mess. Idiots on both sides engaged in violence can only make it worse. People like me only mean to comment on and criticize people like me, i.e., people not directly involved who comment on it. I only say people like us can state an opinion but if we simply inflame the issues by being rude to either side and generalize either side as idiots, we only make matters worse.

There are people like you who have your positions based on genuine well thought out points. I only hope those people directly fucked up by this on either side, can find a way out without smart asses including me with our comments making it worse. I can not presume to know what it is like to have it directly in my face like some of the parties have. I think the comment from the poster who witnessed a shit thing with his daughter but could stay so level headed on this post is an example of the kind of thing that will resolve this-people who have a right to be angry but keep themselves focused.

My issues with Keng have really nothing to do with this post but a general over-all issue which I know annoys some and I would kindly ask they just ignore me when I respond to Keng but I am doing it based on a principal I strongly believe in actually taught to me by a Christian theologian of all people who is dead but would expect me to do what I am doing. Thanks again for the patience to anyone I have annoyed with my posts.

I say it again, this conflict will be resolved. The hard feelings that come as a result of the violence will take time to heal and I am not in the position to tell anyone who has personally felt this anything other then people like me have to help people like you find a way to resolve this shit in a fair way. You have the right to live in peace and not have to live in this stalemate which is the direct result in my opinion of failed federal policies that have screwed both sides.

Edited January 11, 2008 by Rue

[kengs333]

Thanks again for the patience to anyone I have annoyed with my posts.

That would be just about everyone here, I suppose. I would like to remind you, though, that this deliberate watchdog campaign against me is, in my opinion, borderline cyber stalking.

[Dog]

A very interesting story.

To the best of my knowledge, there are no members of Six Nations who post on here regularly. There were (and may still be) several who would not go out of their way to dispell the assumption that they were members of Six Nations; but in reality they are "white" and apparently have some sort of agenda other than "Native Rights".

My mistake i did make the assumption that some postings were from Six Nations residents .

[Wild Bill]

A very interesting story.

To the best of my knowledge, there are no members of Six Nations who post on here regularly. There were (and may still be) several who would not go out of their way to dispell the assumption that they were members of Six Nations; but in reality they are "white" and apparently have some sort of agenda other than "Native Rights". They've been attracted to the issue because it allows them to sow discord and instigate strife. If you go over to the reclaimation info message forum you'll find them posting as "timmer" and "granny" (and I'm sure there are a few others, as well, but I dn't know or really care who they are).

Actually, I just can't believe that. From the info given and the tone of many posters here it seems obvious to me that they are intimately involved with the protesters, to the point where they may as well be considered part of the same group, no matter what their ancestry.

Consider the initial post in this very thread! The event had barely occurred when this post was made, complete with a video clip purporting to be "proof" that McHale was in the wrong. The video clip proved no such thing, in fact it suggested quite the opposite but the intent was clear. Someone or someones set McHale up and posted a "putup" here as fast as possible, trying to get some favourable spin launched for their side before the truth might make them look bad.

There have been a number of such attempts at spin. They tend to be rather poorly done but it's obvious there's some kind of organization behind them.

When someone posts to me that reality is a mere perception that tells me they're involved in propaganda for sure!

[guyser]

That would be just about everyone here, I suppose. I would like to remind you, though, that this deliberate watchdog campaign against me is, in my opinion, borderline cyber stalking.

Better to be "Annoyed" than outright dismissed.

Call the cyber police and lay a cyber charge, and he can be put in cyber cuffs .

[kengs333]

Actually, I just can't believe that. From the info given and the tone of many posters here it seems obvious to me that they are intimately involved with the protesters, to the point where they may as well be considered part of the same group, no matter what their ancestry.

Okay, "attracted" may not be the best way to have put it. You're right, they seem to be "intimately involved," and I would agree that they become "part of the same group," but my impression is that they still have something of a seperate agenda. According to what I've read on the reclamation info message board there are some mebers of Six Nations who are concerned about their participation in the protests. Also, "jennie" used to post links to Communist and Anarchist websites on occasion.

[kengs333]

My mistake i did make the assumption that some postings were from Six Nations residents .

I was under the impression that they were, too, for awhile. The one eventually claimed to be of Irish ancestry, but who knows... The other I suspect was the "timmer" who like to produce all these videos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzwpvDexwfw) of confrontations that he incites, and it was only until he was exposed elsewhere and I came across a cbc.ca article on an unrelated topic which included his picture that I learned that he was not from Six Nations. As far as I'm concerned, given what I've seen from his videos, here's more abrassive and confrontational than McHale, but nothing is done about it and his name never gets in the papers.

Edited January 12, 2008 by kengs333

[charter.rights]

I was under the impression that they were, too, for awhile. The one eventually claimed to be of Irish ancestry, but who knows... The other I suspect was the "timmer" who like to produce all these videos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzwpvDexwfw) of confrontations that he incites, and it was only until he was exposed elsewhere and I came across a cbc.ca article on an unrelated topic which included his picture that I learned that he was not from Six Nations. As far as I'm concerned, given what I've seen from his videos, here's more abrassive and confrontational than McHale, but nothing is done about it and his name never gets in the papers.

Mchale is neither confrontational or abrasive. He is a moronic psychopath-like boy who is annoying alone and incites hate when he gets into his crowd of uncontrolled rowdies.