Sneaky Conservatism

[myata]

Yes. I think their chief problem is that they don't really understand democracy. They think its all about getting a leader who knows what's good for his serfs better then themselves. Big daddy who can take good care of his children.

And no, I don't want it to be partisan. Chretien has gotten pretty arrogant in his later years - to the detriment of good policy and, ultimately, the country itself. It was time for him to go, although I hoped they'd do it in a more responcible fashion. But, simply to put things into perspective - by that time he's had some quite extraordinary feats under his belt - such as keeping the country toghether after a near miss referendum - recovering the economy from the bottoms hit under Mulroney - and winning three consequtive majorities. Harper only managed to get a minority - and a very slim one at that - and already showing attitudes of some minor Caesar. The guy plain and simple needs a cool down. To understand where and when he is. Do some reading about democracy.

[Michael Bluth]

And no, I don't want it to be partisan.

No it doesn't appear that you do?

All you do is make wild accusations then tell other people to do the research.

How about doing some yourself?

Show where Harper said "he'll keep Canada in Kyoto." Remember context is important.

[myata]

Show where Harper said "he'll keep Canada in Kyoto." Remember context is important.

What further research is needed? Canada is still in Kyoto - even if Harper wants to pretend what it's not. See, this is the problem with these guys and you pointed it (thanks) spot on. Canada entered into the agreement via democratic process (parliamentary ratification). And having become the law, it can only be changed via democratic process itself. Which Harperites did not dare to do. In fact, for about 1.5 years now, Harper isn't even talking about withdrawing from Kyoto. But, unlike any democratic politician, who would have no choice but to honestly and in good faith comply with the law of the land, until and unless it's changed through democratic process, Harper's crowd ignored, sabotaged and diminished it, whenever and however they could. I.e plain and simple, showed contempt for democratic process and the democracy itself.

Same with death penalty.

And the same, as it appears to be, with gun control.

This is the principal matter. This crowd does not undestand democracy - which requires democratic process and holds law for everybody. They believe that by virtue of being elected they somehow obtained the privilige to not follow democratic process. Be above the law of the land. To ignore and sabotage it. For that reason alone they need to be kicked out at the earliest opportunity, and not be let withing a gunshot of power, until they do some self education on the basics of democratic governance.

[no queenslave]

What further research is needed? Canada is still in Kyoto - even if Harper wants to pretend what it's not. See, this is the problem with these guys and you pointed it (thanks) spot on. Canada entered into the agreement via democratic process (parliamentary ratification). And having become the law, it can only be changed via democratic process itself. Which Harperites did not dare to do. In fact, for about 1.5 years now, Harper isn't even talking about withdrawing from Kyoto. But, unlike any democratic politician, who would have no choice but to honestly and in good faith comply with the law of the land, until and unless it's changed through democratic process, Harper's crowd ignored, sabotaged and diminished it, whenever and however they could. I.e plain and simple, showed contempt for democratic process and the democracy itself.

Same with death penalty.

And the same, as it appears to be, with gun control.

This is the principal matter. This crowd does not undestand democracy - which requires democratic process and holds law for everybody. They believe that by virtue of being elected they somehow obtained the privilige to not follow democratic process. Be above the law of the land. To ignore and sabotage it. For that reason alone they need to be kicked out at the earliest opportunity, and not be let withing a gunshot of power, until they do some self education on the basics of democratic governance.

http://www.detaxcanada.org/kuhl.htm

and you should some self education; insted of only relying on government propaganda.

Canada does not have a democratic government;. The government just assumed power in 1931 using colonial rules. The queen is head of the canadian dictatorship.

[Michael Bluth]

What further research is needed? Canada is still in Kyoto - even if Harper wants to pretend what it's not.

Because you aren't telling the truth. Here is what you said.

It's with him not stating, openly and publicly, what they are in the first place. Only Harper can say that he'll keep country in Kyoto, then do all he possibly could to torpedoe it.

He never said he would keep Canada in Kyoto.

If the opposition parties think the Conservatives are breaking the law they can defeat them any time they want in the house of commons.

[Pliny]

What further research is needed? Canada is still in Kyoto - even if Harper wants to pretend what it's not. See, this is the problem with these guys and you pointed it (thanks) spot on. Canada entered into the agreement via democratic process (parliamentary ratification). And having become the law, it can only be changed via democratic process itself. Which Harperites did not dare to do. In fact, for about 1.5 years now, Harper isn't even talking about withdrawing from Kyoto. But, unlike any democratic politician, who would have no choice but to honestly and in good faith comply with the law of the land, until and unless it's changed through democratic process, Harper's crowd ignored, sabotaged and diminished it, whenever and however they could. I.e plain and simple, showed contempt for democratic process and the democracy itself.

Same with death penalty.

And the same, as it appears to be, with gun control.

This is the principal matter. This crowd does not undestand democracy - which requires democratic process and holds law for everybody. They believe that by virtue of being elected they somehow obtained the privilige to not follow democratic process. Be above the law of the land. To ignore and sabotage it. For that reason alone they need to be kicked out at the earliest opportunity, and not be let withing a gunshot of power, until they do some self education on the basics of democratic governance.

The Conservatives were elected democratically on an open an openly campaigned platform. Seems like democracy to me. It is too bad that they won, not particularly on their own merit, but because of the corruption of the Liberals.

It seems to me, you believe for some reason the Liberal view is still the majority view and you are part of that majority. It is not the majority view currently. You are in a minority. You have to accept that sometimes your issues will not find support among conservatives. Saying that because Harper is not listening and following your desires there is no democracy is pretty myopic in my view. Communists use that ploy a lot, demanding democracy but not intending to grant it to anyone else.

[no queenslave]

The Conservatives were elected democratically on an open an openly campaigned platform. Seems like democracy to me. It is too bad that they won, not particularly on their own merit, but because of the corruption of the Liberals.

It seems to me, you believe for some reason the Liberal view is still the majority view and you are part of that majority. It is not the majority view currently. You are in a minority. You have to accept that sometimes your issues will not find support among conservatives. Saying that because Harper is not listening and following your desires there is no democracy is pretty myopic in my view. Communists use that ploy a lot, demanding democracy but not intending to grant it to anyone else.

Black's law Dictionary. "Democracy. that form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from a monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy."

Canada does not have a democracy and never had; you were indoctrinated to believe that we have a democracy; and most think we do. but we don't.

The Statute of westminster gave us our freedom but the politicians did not allow us to exercise it, they just assumed power in 1931 and continued to govern with colonial powers, swearing to obey and protect the queen .

http://www.detaxcanada.org/kuhl.htm

[Michael Bluth]

It seems to me, you believe for some reason the Liberal view is still the majority view and you are part of that majority. It is not the majority view currently. You are in a minority. You have to accept that sometimes your issues will not find support among conservatives. Saying that because Harper is not listening and following your desires there is no democracy is pretty myopic in my view. Communists use that ploy a lot, demanding democracy but not intending to grant it to anyone else.

Far too many Liberal supporters actually believe this Natural Governing Party tripe.

They see it as their God-given right to govern. It isn't.

When the LPC braintrust move past *scary* *scary* *scary* to create a platform of policies that actually resonate with a majority of Canadians then they will be able to reasonably think about forming Government again.

[Fortunata]

*scary* *scary* *scary*

Obviously originality isn't a strong trait. But then followers rarely come up with anything original.

Follow on........

[Pliny]

Black's law Dictionary. "Democracy. that form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from a monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy."

Canada does not have a democracy and never had; you were indoctrinated to believe that we have a democracy; and most think we do. but we don't.

The Statute of westminster gave us our freedom but the politicians did not allow us to exercise it, they just assumed power in 1931 and continued to govern with colonial powers, swearing to obey and protect the queen .

http://www.detaxcanada.org/kuhl.htm

So...I haven't read what your solutions to the current Monarchy would be. Would you agree to a Constitution approved by the majority that would keep the status quo or would you continue to argue that the people were tricked?

[Pliny]

Obviously originality isn't a strong trait. But then followers rarely come up with anything original.

Follow on........

Very original.

[Fortunata]

Very original.

I know

[Michael Bluth]

Obviously originality isn't a strong trait. But then followers rarely come up with anything original.

Follow on........

You are correct. The *scary* *scary* *scary* isn't very original at all. The followers of Jack and Steph do continue to use the same line of attack though, so I have no problem in describing it accurately.

[Pliny]

I know

Generally, I find someone is guilty of that which they accuse another.

Edited December 3, 2007 by Pliny

[myata]

The Conservatives were elected democratically on an open an openly campaigned platform. Seems like democracy to me. It is too bad that they won, not particularly on their own merit, but because of the corruption of the Liberals.

Seems to me you may have problems in comprehending what you read. Please reread the post, slowly, and repeat in necessary, before commenting. What was said is, "the fact of being elected into minority government does not entitle them to neglect democratic process". Canada's participation in Kyoto is a law adopted through a democratic process. And the only way it can be changed is via democratic process itself. That is, debate and vote in the Parliament. By refusing to implement, in good faith, the current law of the land, sneaky cons are showing blant and obvious contempt for democracy. Period.

[Michael Bluth]

Canada's participation in Kyoto is a law adopted through a democratic process. And the only way it can be changed is via democratic process itself. That is, debate and vote in the Parliament. By refusing to implement, in good faith, the current law of the land, sneaky cons are showing blant and obvious contempt for democracy. Period.

The opposition has had numerous opportunities to defeat the Government on Kyoto via a motion of non-confidence. They haven't done so. Democracy prevails.

Still no evidence of Harper "agreeing not to take Canada out of Kyoto".

You still haven't provided any support for your false claims.

Your lack of consistency is difficult to follow.

Your original definition of 'sneaky' was proven to be wrong. So you change the definition without support.

Boy talk about sneaky.

[myata]

Still no evidence of Harper "agreeing not to take Canada out of Kyoto".

Oh my. OK. Maybe Harper disagrees (deep inside), I'm ready to accept it with any appropriate apologies. But the matter of fact remains all the same: Canada is still in the agreement. And until Harper and his cons take it to a democratic debate, and a vote, and win it, they are obligated to comply with it and implment it in good faith.

Democratic process is clear and precise: you either win the majority on your side, or follow the decision supported by majority even if it goes against your personal views. Or, of course, resign.

This is not what Harper cons do. They do not put their plans out for democratic debate. And they don't respect, in good faith, the will of majority already expressed through democratic process. They are in contempt.

[Michael Bluth]

Democratic process is clear and precise: you either win the majority on your side, or follow the decision supported by majority even if it goes against your personal views. Or, of course, resign.

This is not what Harper cons do. They do not put their plans out for democratic debate. And they don't respect, in good faith, the will of majority already expressed through democratic process. They are in contempt.

1. Harper cons against the rules. tsk tsk tsk

2. When was a vote held on entering Kyoto? Where was the democratic debate?

3. They are in a minority Government. If Steph had the cojones they would defeat them. Steph doesn't see Kyoto as important enough an issue to force an election over. Our democracy works.

[Fortunata]

"This isn't about abandoning Kyoto," he said. "This is about reducing greenhouse gas emissions and doing what the Liberals failed to do.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/05/20/kyoto-sat.html

The HarperConservatives have said this over and over and over as they undermine our responsibilities. What's even worse than not doing much constructively is they try to block treaties that could do something. In that respect they are leading. What a bunch of maroons.

[myata]

1. Harper cons against the rules. tsk tsk tsk

Not really. Nothing wrong with holding any views - if they brought it out in the open for public debate. That's not what sneaky cons do though.

2. When was a vote held on entering Kyoto? Where was the democratic debate?

It was ratified in the Parliament. Remember?

3. They are in a minority Government. If Steph had the cojones they would defeat them. Steph doesn't see Kyoto as important enough an issue to force an election over.

If he understands it, and were to behave as a democratic politician, he would work in good faith on implementing the spirit of the agreement, until such time as he manages to gather majority support for his position. Or change his position to that of the majority. What he can't do as a democratic politician is to pay lip service to majority position, while quietly and behind close door ignore and sabotage it. This is the sneaky conservative way. Harper's way.

Our democracy works.

I certainly hope it will, when I see sneaky cons kicked out of power. Not for being conservative. Not for holding any particular views. But for not understanding the meaning of democracy and democratic process.

Edited December 3, 2007 by myata

[Fortunata]

Generally, I find someone is guilty of that which they accuse another.

Could be I am guilty of that which you are accusing me but I do have more than 3 words in my vocabulary and even the words I like to use (I mean really like, only some of which are banned by the way) I change up once in awhile just for variety.

[Michael Bluth]

If he understands it, and were to behave as a democratic politician, he would work in good faith on implementing the spirit of the agreement, until such time as he manages to gather majority support for his position.

Back to the 'spirit of the agreement' again. If youi actually cared about that then you would see the Conservatives are moving in that direction.

The Conservatives have taken more active steps to cut GHG emissions in two years in power than the Liberals did in over 13 years in power.

If you recognize that paying money off shore to 'buy' emission credits is ridiculous then the Conservatives are miles ahead of anything the Liberals ever did on the environment.

[myata]

Back to the 'spirit of the agreement' again. If youi actually cared about that then you would see the Conservatives are moving in that direction.

The Conservatives have taken more active steps to cut GHG emissions in two years in power than the Liberals did in over 13 years in power.

You mean, he's now working on implementing the spirit of Kyoto in good faith? The first sign of which would probably be changing the framework of reference to something that else understands. So that 20% below 2006 level by 2020 is actually 10% above 1990 (ie in common tems). Makes a wealth of difference.

But OK, I'm eager to hear what exactly is that "more"? Surely not the old Liberal programs under new names? Or new old voluntary emission targets? Or the programs implemented by provinces on their own, with no guidance or participation from Harpers governmet?

[no queenslave]

Not really. Nothing wrong with holding any views - if they brought it out in the open for public debate. That's not what sneaky cons do though.

It was ratified in the Parliament. Remember?

If he understands it, and were to behave as a democratic politician, he would work in good faith on implementing the spirit of the agreement, until such time as he manages to gather majority support for his position. Or change his position to that of the majority. What he can't do as a democratic politician is to pay lip service to majority position, while quietly and behind close door ignore and sabotage it. This is the sneaky conservative way. Harper's way.

I certainly hope it will, when I see sneaky cons kicked out of power. Not for being conservative. Not for holding any particular views. But for not understanding the meaning of democracy and democratic process.

You don't even understand what a democracy is.

Blacks law dictionary "DEMOCRACY. That form of government in which the SOVEREIGN power resides in and is exercised by the WHOLE body of FREE citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as DISTINGUISHED FROM a monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy. "

As demonstrated in creating democracy in IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN the people first have to be free, then they agree on the wording of a constitution and all the eligible voters ratify it by a referendum. Canadians were given their freedom in 1931 By the statute of Westminster.

The people of Canada have never created or ratified a constitution. CANADA IS NOT A DEMOCRACY: WHAT MAKES YOU BELIEVE IT IS? INDOCTRINATION.

You can have all the elections you want to elect M.P. s as long as they swear to obey and protect the Queen as head of your dictatorship. That is the real world of Canadian politics.

Quote "The Queen pays me to post..... T am not going to take any position contrary to the one I'm paid to take" by jbg

THe web is full of government paid posters ; paid to post government propaganda in their indoctrination of you to believe their lies.

[Fain]

This is a stupid topic that wreaks of conspiracy on both sides.