Higgly Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 George Bush has embarked on an attempt to solve the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. To date, nobody has been able to unravel this Gordian knot. Can George W. Bush go where no man has gone before? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jawapunk Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 Is Bush worried about legacy now? What the hell was he doing the first 7 years? Building infamy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 I'm not very optimistic. Hamas is not invited. Settlement of past injustices not mentioned. Sounds like the same old "the only peace you can have will be on our terms". At best, it may turn out to be something along the lines of Oslo, which dragged for awhile then died miserably. Honest attempt at peace would involve going to the roots of the conflict, and all parties involved in it. See e.g. Northern Ireland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgly Posted November 28, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 I'm not very optimistic. Hamas is not invited. Settlement of past injustices not mentioned. Sounds like the same old "the only peace you can have will be on our terms". At best, it may turn out to be something along the lines of Oslo, which dragged for awhile then died miserably.Honest attempt at peace would involve going to the roots of the conflict, and all parties involved in it. See e.g. Northern Ireland. The problem is that this has been portrayed for too long as a political argument when in fact it is an argument over property rights. So I don't agree with you about Northern Ireland. In Northern Ireland, nobody ever tried to undermine the land registry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 I don't mean to say that the conflict between Catholic and Protestant communities is the same as the one in Palestine. Rather, that an honest approach to settlement must necessarily involve 1) addressing the causes of the conflict; and 2) all main parties. So far, as with Oslo before this, the US is playing into Israel's game. I.e. pretending that the conflict developed out of the blue and the settlement will be about trading military superiourity of Israel (supported by the US) for further land consessions from Arabs. Until this changes, and for real, I wouldn't expect any major progress in the situation. The recipe for settlement is known since a long time. To remind, it's as simple as: 1) recongnition and apology for past injustices; 2) fair complensation; 3) fair land settlement based on 1967 borders and mutual recognition of two states. The moment Israel agrees to it (or / and US uses its influence to make it agree to it) I'll believe in peaceful intentions. Till then, business as usual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 The moment Israel agrees to it (or / and US uses its influence to make it agree to it) I'll believe in peaceful intentions. Till then, business as usual. Israel did agree...long ago...but no deal. Israel's "neighbors" chose war instead....and lost. To the victors go the spoils it is said. George Bush has done more for the situation than Canada ever will! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 To the victors go the spoils it is said. Nobody knows where the final spoils will go. These conflicts play out in generations. George Bush has done more for the situation than Canada ever will! You mean, to perpetuate the situation by supporting one side in the conflict? I've no doubt about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgly Posted November 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 (edited) Israel did agree...long ago...but no deal. Israel's "neighbors" chose war instead....and lost. That sort of thinking is what has made the problem so intractable. Your point has been argued here, and can be argued many more times, but such arguments never go anywhere except to make people retreat even more doggedly to their positions. It is hard to see why anybody would adopt such a position unless they believed that israel should continue on its curent course until it has driven out all of the Palestinians or at least completely dispossessed them of their land. Since Israel is at the negotiations, it would appear to be a position that it does not hold - unless of course you believe the Israelis are there for the most cynical of reasons. Edited November 29, 2007 by Higgly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 It is hard to see why anybody would adopt such a position unless they believed that israel should continue on its curent course until it has driven out all of the Palestinians or at least completely dispossessed them of their land. Since Israel is at the negotiations, it would appear to be a position that it does not hold - unless of course you believe the Israelis are there for the most cynical of reasons. Israel will continue to hold a position of well earned strength amongst her enemies, and should negotiate from exactly the same position. The US and Canada have already conquered their PalestIndians, so smugness comes easy wrt the Mideast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Israel acting "from position of strengh" (its own? or perhaps, feeleng the gentle prop from big daddy?) is nothing new. The result will most likely be the same, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottSA Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 That sort of thinking is what has made the problem so intractable. Your point has been argued here, and can be argued many more times, but such arguments never go anywhere except to make people retreat even more doggedly to their positions.It is hard to see why anybody would adopt such a position unless they believed that israel should continue on its curent course until it has driven out all of the Palestinians or at least completely dispossessed them of their land. Since Israel is at the negotiations, it would appear to be a position that it does not hold - unless of course you believe the Israelis are there for the most cynical of reasons. The problem with liberals is that they think there's an answer to everything, and worse, that the answer has a resolution along their way of thinking. The even worse problem with liberals is that while on the one hand claiming conservatives are intransigent, they doggishly insist that their own world view is the only right one. The world view of peace-as-an-end-in-itself is simply not shared by the palestinians, or for that matter most of the rest of the world, so any concessions made are not seen as 'working toward' peace, they are seen as a retreat and taken full advantage of by the palestinians. The problem is not that Israel is too nasty to them; the problem is that Israel didn't thrash them more thoroughly in the first place and send them packing to Jordan. That is working within the paradigm they understand. The vast majority of what liberals think of "enlightened" liberal views are really no more than ethnocentric conceits and bigotries dressed up as universal reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jawapunk Posted November 30, 2007 Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Israel did agree...long ago...but no deal. Israel's "neighbors" chose war instead....and lost. To the victors go the spoils it is said.George Bush has done more for the situation than Canada ever will! It is true, Bush has actually found ways to make things worse if that was even possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgly Posted November 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 Israel will continue to hold a position of well earned strength amongst her enemies, and should negotiate from exactly the same position. The US and Canada have already conquered their PalestIndians, so smugness comes easy wrt the Mideast. Comparison with the Native situation is something that Israel's supporters do from time to time. To a certain extent they are right, but there are some important differences... 1) Many of the Palestinians actually have deeds to their land registered legally by a legitimate government. 2) There is now an international body of law which protects people in situations such as theirs 3) much of the land seizures carried out by Israel have been found to violate even Israeli law 4) Massive land claim settlements are working their way throught the system for Canadian natives Israel may very well continue to hold a position of strength, but does it want to live forever amidst enemies? Why then is it at the table now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgly Posted November 30, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2007 You have chosen to ignore all posts from: ScottSA. · View this post · Un-ignore ScottSA Ah... Sweet peace.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 1, 2007 Report Share Posted December 1, 2007 (edited) Israel may very well continue to hold a position of strength, but does it want to live forever amidst enemies? Why then is it at the table now? Because going to the table in 1979 meant $3 billion a year in US military and economic aid. Egypt and Jordan got in on that deal too. Everybody hates Uncle Sugar except when he is handing out candy. Israel can wait until Canada settles all those outstanding land claims....since "international law" is such a concern...LOL! Edited December 1, 2007 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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