Are Ontario bridges safe?

[Topaz]

A report out says that the bridges in Ontario may not be safe. Who wrote the report? The party who business is to fix them up! I know in my county our bridges are inspected, so are they talking about the provincial bridges?

[margrace]

Ontario's bridges were inspected regularly every two years up until 1996 (the common sense revolution) but now they appear to be falling apart. Remember what happened to some of Quebec's bridges. If you were under one when pieces started falling off maybe you might think differently.

[Borg]

I suspect the majority are - however - every time I am stopped under one I look closely at the concrete that is spalling - and I admit I do not like being stopped there.

I no longer have faith the system will keep them safe.

Borg

[Oleg Bach]

A report out says that the bridges in Ontario may not be safe. Who wrote the report? The party who business is to fix them up! I know in my county our bridges are inspected, so are they talking about the provincial bridges?

It really does matter how good the inspection is. As some know the inspectors of water in some rural towns were not that good. Plus what does an inspection entail? You can look up at some of the railway bridges in the city of Toronto and see that they are covered with a type of chicken wire underneath to diswade the corrosive action of pigeon poop. I wonder if and inspector can really see past that wire messing that in some cases has been in place for 30 years or so.

What I did find worrysome is parts of the Toronto subway system. Standing under a section where there are intersection tracks and listening - it felt as if at any moment the last few remaining bolts holding the whole place together were on the verge of popping out. It does not take an expert to intuitively feel that some construction was done with the lowest possible amount of material and is really underbuilt. The dependance on super smart and cost effecient engineering may be a problem.

Most contractors and engineers I am sure love their job, but most are motivated by profit. As with the Gardener express way and the millions apoun millions spent in the repair of crumbling concrete was in my laymans estimation due to skimping on material. The metal reinforcement within the concrete seem just a little to close to the surface and water has cause the thin layer to peal away leaving metal exposed to rust even further. If this is truely the case it would have resulted from the oringinal contractor and engineers using a few square yards less of concrete - causeing a rise in profit when you take into the consideration that there are hundreds of supporting pillars holding up this in effect a very long and aging bridge.

If my speculations are correct - that would mean that the millions extra made by the contractor with the assistance of an overly efficient team of engineers...that years and years later the tax payer is still giving support to what may have been greedy little crooks long dead. Most of the structures in Ontario look safe enough..but little things like not haveing a good metalugist on hand to make sure that the fasteners that hold together these huge slabs of concrete and ashfalt are of the highest quality. A chain is as strong as it's weakest link.

Can the internal unexposed metal that holds a bridge together be properly inspected? Probably not...the only alternative would be to go into the records - if there are any and see what the metalugist state who passed the fasteners as safe. For instance - in a jet aircraft all it takes is metal of inferiour qualtiy to give way - one bold and a few screws and down she goes. If you have ever done work around the house or on the family car..You will notice that you can buy bolts..that can be torqued up by the human hand and do not snap - some material usually imported - snapps right off--- and not by a powerful mechanical wrench - but by a common wrench powered by human flesh.

Its all about the metal mostly - and sometimes the concrete - if the mix is not PERFECT - and poured with expert knowledge and in good faith ....then it will in time give way. Governmental inspectors may have to re-vamp their techniques of examination...driving around in a company pick up truck with an old guy with a mickey in the glove box - carrying a clip board may not be the best to guarentee a structure to be totally safe..if one bridge can fall on your head - then in all probabity a second one will fall in time.

[AngusThermopyle]

Wow, that was a long post. Lots of speculation, very very little knowledge of the subject.

The metal reinforcement as you put it is called rebar. There are no different grades of rebar, it's all the same, made from melted down scrap. Thats why when you cut it sometimes it cuts quite easily and other times it's a real bitch to cut. Generally for overhead structures you use 15 mil with a 16 inch spacing. The concrete is inspected thoroughly before it's accepted. It must contain between 5 to 8% air to be acceptable.

The engineers who design and inspect structures are always independant of the construction company. This is to ensure that no violations of code occur that would favour the general contractor.

A concrete structure will degrade over time, entropy can not be denied. Polution from internal combustion engines will actually hasten this degradation. You cant expect a heavily used artificial structure to stand intact forever.

As for your comments about fat old guys in pick up trucks, well, you're wrong. You make sweeping generalizations backed by pure speculation about an industry you obviously have no knowledge of. It's a hell of a lot more technical than you think actually.

[Wild Bill]

It really does matter how good the inspection is. As some know the inspectors of water in some rural towns were not that good. Plus what does an inspection entail? You can look up at some of the railway bridges in the city of Toronto and see that they are covered with a type of chicken wire underneath to diswade the corrosive action of pigeon poop. I wonder if and inspector can really see past that wire messing that in some cases has been in place for 30 years or so.

Most contractors and engineers I am sure love their job, but most are motivated by profit. As with the Gardener express way and the millions apoun millions spent in the repair of crumbling concrete was in my laymans estimation due to skimping on material. The metal reinforcement within the concrete seem just a little to close to the surface and water has cause the thin layer to peal away leaving metal exposed to rust even further. If this is truely the case it would have resulted from the oringinal contractor and engineers using a few square yards less of concrete - causeing a rise in profit when you take into the consideration that there are hundreds of supporting pillars holding up this in effect a very long and aging bridge.

If my speculations are correct - that would mean that the millions extra made by the contractor with the assistance of an overly efficient team of engineers...that years and years later the tax payer is still giving support to what may have been greedy little crooks long dead. Most of the structures in Ontario look safe enough..but little things like not haveing a good metalugist on hand to make sure that the fasteners that hold together these huge slabs of concrete and ashfalt are of the highest quality. A chain is as strong as it's weakest link.

Can the internal unexposed metal that holds a bridge together be properly inspected? Probably not...the only alternative would be to go into the records - if there are any and see what the metalugist state who passed the fasteners as safe. For instance - in a jet aircraft all it takes is metal of inferiour qualtiy to give way - one bold and a few screws and down she goes. If you have ever done work around the house or on the family car..You will notice that you can buy bolts..that can be torqued up by the human hand and do not snap - some material usually imported - snapps right off--- and not by a powerful mechanical wrench - but by a common wrench powered by human flesh.

Its all about the metal mostly - and sometimes the concrete - if the mix is not PERFECT - and poured with expert knowledge and in good faith ....then it will in time give way. Governmental inspectors may have to re-vamp their techniques of examination...driving around in a company pick up truck with an old guy with a mickey in the glove box - carrying a clip board may not be the best to guarentee a structure to be totally safe..if one bridge can fall on your head - then in all probabity a second one will fall in time.

Years ago I was a field inspector for a construction materials and engineering firm. I can tell you that no engineer would ever skimp on safety. Engineers have to sign off on all such projects and are legally liable to the end of time! They can be called into court and lose their professional licence.

Now contractors are quite another story! Like with anything there are good ones and bad ones. I caught all kinds of grievous tricks and to this day there are buildings in my town where I refuse to ever walk out on the balcony!

Municipal governments in Ontario used to rely heavily on 3rd party independent inspection firms. This avoided conflicts of interest and having to take the blame themselves for problems. The province had their own team of inspectors for the provincial roads and highways, with very strict standards. Even then, often a private firm would be hired by a contractor for the job, just so that they would have their own engineering reports available in case of future problems and litigation.

The problem today is that politicians have cut too many budget corners! In order to finance their own vote-buying projects they've cut and cut from civil engineering inspections. A good friend of mine worked for the highway department for years and quit during Bob Rae's term. Bob saw the department as merely a job venue for welfare cases. Politics quickly trumped engineering. Old hands knew that you didn't do concrete repairs in the dead of winter's cold but with Bob's programs we saw teams of new labourers doing this all the time. Of course, the repairs didn't hold and had to be done over and over again but no one seemed to care. My friend wasn't the only old hand to quit. They lost a ton of experienced personnel and some say the system has never recovered.

During my stint working for a private firm I still recall our getting a job for the city of Dunnville. They had built a water tower and when first filled it fell over! Terrible mess! The city hired us to prove substandard materials and worksmanship on the part of the contractor.

It wasn't hard to prove at all. Big chunks of concrete could be broken in your bare hands and you could see in the rubble that there was nowhere near as much reinforcing steel as there was supposed to be.

Yet when our report went in suddenly the city clammed up, sent us on our way and never mentioned it again. My boss had figured out the real scoop and explained to me that our company was supposed to have the original inspection contract during construction but at the last minute some of the Dunnville councilors had the idea that they could just give jobs to their sons and nephews that were needing work experience for their education from civil engineering schools.

The rumour was that these young pups were left to their own devices and had spent all their time in the construction shed playing cards, just signing all the inspection reports as the work was being done as "A-ok!".

Of course the contractors took shameless advantage of the situation. Our report proved this beyond any doubt but what the politicos suddenly realized was that with all the inspection reports having been OK'd by their own inspectors they had no legal leg to stand on! They quickly hushed it all up. The good citizens of that city paid for two new water towers and a cleanup and likely all but a few never knew the true story!

Plus ca change, plus la meme chose...

Edited November 20, 2007 by Wild Bill

[AngusThermopyle]

Those guys were pouring in the dead of winter! Holy sh*t! No wonder the concrete flaked and cracked. You just cant pour when it's below freezing unless you have a method to allow the concrete to cure without freezing.

There was a collapse up in the oilfields. Three Chinese guys were killed if I recall correctly, I think they were building big steel storage tanks. I never did hear the results of the investigation though. I'll have to find out if criminal charges were laid.

Thats something else that has changed. If you injure or kill someone through negligence they will now lay criminal charges. Some of the cases I've seen have involved fines and jail time. The fines are pretty heavy now too. Anywhere from 250,000 to 1 million dollars.

As far as I'm concerned it's an excellent move. It may help get rid of some of the more fly by night operators.

[guyser]

As angus pointed out the engineers are rarely the problem. Their records and plans are easily accessed at anytime so if a problem were to develop they can check it.

Can we say the same about a contractor? No we cant. All we are left with is the building/span/bridge .

Then there is the routine maintenance that gets overlooked due to budget problems within said city. If they ignore problems that are developing, or delay maintenance then we get problems. And then of course there is the problem of a lack of money and foresight.

I can say for this city, Toronto, lack of foresight has handcuffed the city to what we have now. For instance we should have...

1) Spadina Expressway should have gone ahead.

2) DVP was built for 100,000 cars an hour, and now it handles 3-4 times that.It was said by engineers that it was being built too small

3)Ending the Gardiner at the east end....the original plan was for it to continue on to Highway #2 , Kingston road and then connect to the 401 further along.

#1 and 3 would seriously ease the congestion of this city.

But the city said no.

[Oleg Bach]

Wow, that was a long post. Lots of speculation, very very little knowledge of the subject.

The metal reinforcement as you put it is called rebar. There are no different grades of rebar, it's all the same, made from melted down scrap. Thats why when you cut it sometimes it cuts quite easily and other times it's a real bitch to cut. Generally for overhead structures you use 15 mil with a 16 inch spacing. The concrete is inspected thoroughly before it's accepted. It must contain between 5 to 8% air to be acceptable.

The engineers who design and inspect structures are always independant of the construction company. This is to ensure that no violations of code occur that would favour the general contractor.

A concrete structure will degrade over time, entropy can not be denied. Polution from internal combustion engines will actually hasten this degradation. You cant expect a heavily used artificial structure to stand intact forever.

As for your comments about fat old guys in pick up trucks, well, you're wrong. You make sweeping generalizations backed by pure speculation about an industry you obviously have no knowledge of. It's a hell of a lot more technical than you think actually.

Just was not sure how to spell "rebar" - I know what the stuff is. AND yes I speculate a lot - if there is no sure way to accurately and swiftly pin point a problem...well you use your imagination and if you imagine enough you may get close..kind of like tossing IT against the wall - some of it is bound to stick. My post was hopefully to have someone such as yourself who is more expert..refine my speculations not just disgard them. "Obviously have no knowledge of" - I do know by instinct what will stand and defy gravity and what will not defy it as long..

.If one bridge falls..there must be a reason. In the states the infrastructure is coming apart at the seems...and roads are a mess. What I have noticed in the last twenty years is a decline in maintainance. For instance the whole east side of Toronto - last year was pot holed - and I am talking huge holes in pavement - and everywhere - This was unheard of twenty years ago in a Canadian city, point being...as the populace increases and there is more use of roads and bridges, you will find they will wear out.

Back tracking a bit..and this is hard to deny - but the fastening I was talking about were not rebar - which is a reinforcement...but bolts and plates that are used in some structures - is it possible that we may have gone through a period of using poor quality metal? It is something to consider..speculation has it's place. It may be just be a good way to stimulate thought as I mentioned earlier, to cause inquisitiveness. No bridge should collaspe ever. There is not excuse. This is not a third world country.

[Michael Hardner]

Guyser, Bill and Angus - thank you for your well thought out and well written posts here.

Legislators in the mid-20th century finally started acting responsibly and enforcing standards for safety in society. In the 1990s, this all came apart in a flurry of finger-pointing.

Conservatives need to recognize that not all government processes are bureaucracy and red tape. Liberals need to recognize that inefficiency doesn't equal safety, and that having a union doesn't fix every problem out there.

Legislating inspections by independent private contractors who are part of a professional organization - is a system that worked well - efficiently and safely - for years. Anything else needs to be whistle-blown and the political types need to be held accountable and turfed out of office in the same manner Mike Harris was, and that Dalton McGuinty should be.

[AngusThermopyle]

is it possible that we may have gone through a period of using poor quality metal?

That is possible I suppose, very unlikely though. As was pointed out, all engineered specs are kept on file. If it were shown that inferior materials that did not meet spec were used the General Contractor would be liable to criminal prosecution.

Having said that, who can guarantee what some yahoo will decide to do with a job. Out here Volker Stevin handles the highway contracts, having worked with them on several occasions I can state that they maintain a very high standard. I'm not sure who has the contract in Ontario though.

This industry is carefully scrutinized, we maintain high production standards as well as high safety standards. We're COR certified though so we don't have much choice. If we don't maintain these standards we lose our COR certification and are shut out of many jobs.

[mikedavid00]

I suspect the majority are - however - every time I am stopped under one I look closely at the concrete that is spalling - and I admit I do not like being stopped there.

I no longer have faith the system will keep them safe.

Borg

Do you really trust our gov't 'inspectors'?

Need I remind you of water safetway, canada blood services.

I don't trust their opinion as far as I can throw them. However, just looking myself, many seem to be very old and not in good condition.

[daniel]

Do you really trust our gov't 'inspectors'?

Need I remind you of water safetway, canada blood services.

I don't trust their opinion as far as I can throw them. However, just looking myself, many seem to be very old and not in good condition.

And you have the authority to comment about government because....?

[Wild Bill]

Do you really trust our gov't 'inspectors'?

Need I remind you of water safetway, canada blood services.

I don't trust their opinion as far as I can throw them. However, just looking myself, many seem to be very old and not in good condition.

All physical structures need continued inspection and maintenance. It is understood from the start that materials can age and weaken. Nothing is expected to last forever. Since most politicians haven't taken any hard science since their 5th grade bean seeds in that jar of toilet paper died instead of sprouted, they haven't enough wit to understand the perils of cutting back inspection budgets for infrastructure. Until something falls down, of course. Then they're instant experts on why SOMEONE ELSE should get the blame!

Some years ago near Hamilton we had a fire in a huge old tire dump. It became a media frenzy as a pollution catastophe and was the highlight of many a news hour.

In the months that followed the cleanup became quite the environmental issue. Everyone was crying that the toxic chemicals would totally pollute the ground water for miles and all children born in the area would be hideous mutants! I had left the testing lab where I used to work but happened to run in to my old boss and we ended up having lunch together.

He told me that they were quite busy running a mobile lab out at the tire fire site but gave a loud snort and commented: "What a bloody waste of tax dollars!".

I asked him what he meant and he told me: "Everyone's worried about all the combustion products from burning tires. Toluene, ethylene, ene-ene...they talk about it polluting the water table. None of them know basic chemistry. All these products have a specific gravity of less than one. They FLOAT on water! They'll all evaporate with no lasting problems."

I then asked why they took the contract for the mobile lab and he pointed out quite reasonably that the government was determined to give the contract to somebody so it might as well be them.

He then went on to tell me that if a qualified engineer or scientist were to announce that this spectacular fire was not really any pollution problem there was no way the ordinary citizen would believe it. However, when the government threw $10 million dollars of the citizen's own tax money at it he'd then be impressed that something worthwhile was being done!

Now I was a young tad then and my first impression was that my old boss was just being cynical. I've learned a lot since then and I have to admit that today I would say that he was absolutely right! I'd also be thinking about how many hospital beds we could keep open and how many nurses we could hire with that money.

Anyhow, as far as government inspectors go, among the circle of private engineering firms where I had worked one of the standard jokes was that if someone was incompetent in engineering or inspection he could always get a job with the government!

Edited November 20, 2007 by Wild Bill

[guyser]

Do you really trust our gov't 'inspectors'?

Need I remind you of water safetway, canada blood services.

You need not remind anyone of anything. You have no idea what you are talking about. So much for that wonderful research you brag about.

Water safety, let me guess Walkerton? Not a govt service but Municipal and they lied through their teeth cuz they were drunks.

Canada Blood Services are a not-for-profit charitable organization.

[mikedavid00]

And you have the authority to comment about government because....?

I work for a private company, get half of my money taken away, and it goes into the pockets of people here on this very forum.

So yes, I have the right to talk about the system because I own it.

Not everyone on this forum can say the same thing. I would even wager the a majority could not say the same.

There's a new definition of democracy, it's called paying taxes when working at a private company. That's my with my hand up. I fund everything that goes on.

[mikedavid00]

Canada Blood Services are a not-for-profit charitable organization.

Lol..

Are you trying to say that the gov't does not give our tax dollars to this organization?? Have you ever seen the building in Ottawa?

[guyser]

I work for a private company, get half of my money taken away, and it goes into the pockets of people here on this very forum.

So yes, I have the right to talk about the system because I own it.

Not everyone on this forum can say the same thing. I would even wager the a majority could not say the same.

There's a new definition of democracy, it's called paying taxes when working at a private company. That's my with my hand up. I fund everything that goes on.

buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurp ....Thanks mikeyD for buying lunch.