Alliance Fanatic Posted January 2, 2004 Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 The Liberal are not secular, they are atheist, most of their policies restrict freedom of religion for christians, Hedy Fry, said that Stockwell Day, was a dishonorable man for believing in one good. Boy this seems more facist than anything. HITLER AND CHRISTIANITY Also contrary to popular belief, Hitler and the Nazis were not Christians, and were in fact vehemently opposed to that religion, which they saw as a Jewish originated belief system. In public, Hitler accepted or even praised Christianity when it was anti-Jewish, but in private, he detested it, as a reading of his personal dinner table chat recorded by Martin Borman and published as "Hitler's Secret Conversations", Farrar, Straus and Young, New York, 1953: “The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity. Bolshevism practices a lie of the same nature, when it claims to bring liberty to men, whereas in reality it seeks only to enslave them. In the ancient world, the relations between men and gods were founded on an instinctive respect. It was a world enlightened by the idea of tolerance. Christianity was the first creed in the world to exterminate its adversaries in the name of love. Its keynote is intolerance. Without Christianity, we should not have had Islam. The Roman Empire, under Germanic influence, would have developed in the direction of world-domination, and humanity would not have extinguished fifteen centuries of civilization at a single stroke. Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." - Adolf Hitler, ibid, Night of 11th-12th July 1941. "Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." - Adolf Hitler, ibid, 10th October 1941, midday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirRiff Posted January 2, 2004 Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 so not letting the church influence government policy in a democracy is anthiest? go figure, i guess all the founders of America and Canada who were generally very religous can now be considered athiests. if you look at why western nations do so well, its because government is allowed to operate outside of the scope of backwards religous fanatics. religous organizations put forward very intolerant and outdated social policy, the type of which has been rejected outright by almost every human on earth. if people truly wanted old white men to force them to conform to old books ultra conservative religous parties would be elected in both canada and US consistently. obviously this isnt the case, and organized religion plays less and less a part in peoples lives these days by choice. in one more generation i dont think there will even be enough people putting forward religion as a means of social policy to make a strong national debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alliance Fanatic Posted January 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 Siriff, I meant this absolute stupidity of not even being allowed to say anything that sounds even remotely christian. Like you cant say merry christmas anymore because you would offend people of other religions, you cant sing christmas carrols anymore because they deal with christ's birthday. I am for seperation of church and state, however I am not for the government telling us atheism is the best, and that we should shun anything dealing with religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted January 2, 2004 Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 Like you cant say merry christmas anymore Merry Christmas, AF. I guess the cops are coming now. Why are you so PC anyway ? Just say Merry Christmas for Christ's sake, if you want to. Don't be so afraid of offending people. You might as well go join the NDP for your fear of offending this culture or that. If someone wished me Happy Hannaukah I'd just say "thanks" and move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neal.F. Posted January 2, 2004 Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 For the record, separation of church and state means one thing, and one thing only: That the state shall establish no one official state religion. Nothing more, nothing less. I believe that ALL will agree with that. Especially Christians, who believe that one must VOLUNTARILY accept Jesus Christ as lord and Saviour in order to be a Christian. It cannot be legislated on anyone. However, western civilization became a bastion of freedom BECAUSE of judeo-christian principles, and the general acceptance that they foster an orderly society that allows maximum freedom. To want to wipe that out is asking for a utilitarian, amoral dictatorship to take over. Even the Christian Heritage Party believes firmly in separation of church and state. They believe however, that should they be called upon to govern, they should do so according to the judeo-christian ethics and standards on which the country was founded, and that includes FREEDOM of religion, to wit, not having any religion forced on anyone. It is the militant secularists who want to abolish Christianity, AND The principles which even non-believers embrace as fundamental to the preservation of a free and oerderly society, in order that there will be NO Objective standards, and that the word of those in power, based on nothing but achieving the objective of the moment, becomes the law of the land. Alliance fanatic is NOT being PC . He is railing against exactly that. I am a Christian, and if a Jewish person wishes me a Happy Chanukah, I am not in the least bit offended, especially since the story of the Maccabees is part of our joint heritage. And if a Muslim offers me best wishes on Eid El-Fitr, I take those wishes in the spirit in which they were offered. BTW, Paul Martin did NOT give a Christmas message this year. Even Crouton would do that in his own twisted way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost in Manitoba Posted January 2, 2004 Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 I hear stories all the time where people of other faiths rally in support of christian traditions. There was a township in BC where the city council decided it was not PC to have a christmas tree on top of city hall, because it may offend the minorities. I listened to a group of East Indian men saying that it was a time of year that they looked forward too, their children liked it, and it made the city look beautiful. They didn't believe in the religious aspect of the holiday but they firmly supported it. I also heard a story of a group of muslims, down in Georgia?? where they were removing the 10 commandments from the courthouse. This group were involved in petioning to keep them there. In both these cases it seems that it was the bleeding heart politically correct folks that were the instigators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neal.F. Posted January 2, 2004 Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 Muslims believe that Jesus Christ was the penultimate prophet, and that he lived a life without sin. They have great respect for him. I am on the Board of directors for a community organization which riuns a pre-school which one of my daughters attends. She is one of three non-Muslims (probably the only Christian) in the group of 20 or so. They hactually had a Christmas party, and ALL the Muslims attended and participated fully. It was not a religious gathering in any way, but gifts were given, and there was certainly goodwill everywhere. It was interesting to see a sea of Hijabs at a Christmas gathering that called itselfd such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirRiff Posted January 2, 2004 Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 Siriff, I meant this absolute stupidity of not even being allowed to say anything that sounds even remotely christian Alliance Fanatic, where exactly is this happening? are christians being tatood with numbers on thier arms and forced to wear crosses in public? i am a normal member of canadian society and i have NEVER seen or heard of a chrstian not being allowed to say anything they want. you are confusing private rights with public rights. you have the right to say most anything you want to as a private citizen. i however, if i own a coffee shop, have the right NOT to let you use my property to say it. additionally, the government has a responsibility to assure equality of all its citizens in its actions, and thus public resources for libraries and such cannot be used to promote one religion over another, the best course of action is to completely seperate public resources from religious activities of any kind. in this way, the great freedoms we have here in canada be be excersized by private individuals of any religion, yet the independance of government can be maintained by not letting the dominant religious community abuse the power of public resources. that seems pretty reasonable to me. and in no way does it limit what a private person can do or say using private resources. go rent a hall and have a christmas party of goodwill and jesus loving. nobody is going to stop you. Muslims believe that Jesus Christ was the penultimate prophet, and that he lived a life without sin.They have great respect for him. you are very right Neal.F., in islam Jesus is considered a true prophet of God (although not the "son" of God). in truth islam has respect for several religions of "the book". the philosophy of islam is among the most tolerant, unfortunatly the geo-political center of islam is now among the most corrupt and miseducated on earth. I am on the Board of directors for a community organization which riuns a pre-school which one of my daughters attends. She is one of three non-Muslims (probably the only Christian) in the group of 20 or so. They hactually had a Christmas party, and ALL the Muslims attended and participated fully. It was not a religious gathering in any way, but gifts were given, and there was certainly goodwill everywhere. man that is quite the story, not everyone is as evil as i thought. i bet these sorts of things happen often yet nobody hears about them because everyone keeps screaming Woe is me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neal.F. Posted January 2, 2004 Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 Sirriff, I HAVE heard about Christians being told, effectively to shut up. I have a brother who is a teacher in Ontario, and they are REQUIRED to teach Kwanzaa, but not Christmas. However in Quebec, where atheism or at least hedonism is rampant, there is a generally laissez-faire attitude toward Christianity, instead of outright hostility. Even among socialist Péquistes, there is a respect for what was the belief and gheritage of their parents. At school, the kids have an option of choosing Moral and religious ed, for the secular families, Roman catholicism or Protestant classes, and where numbers warrant jewish ed. IN THE SCHOOLS. However, from what I hear Outside of Quebec, there is an Militant secularist bent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
udawg Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 I have a brother who is a teacher in Ontario, and they are REQUIRED to teach Kwanzaa, but not Christmas. Although this case might be one of overreaction, I understand the sentiment behind the requirement. In a nation that, for most of its history, was predominantly Christian, requiring students to learn about other culture's traditions is to help promote acceptance and understanding of other people. The idea is to help the supposed minority fit in. And I think we can agree, most school-age children in Ontario probably know about Christmas already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 However, western civilization became a bastion of freedom BECAUSE of judeo-christian principles, and the general acceptance that they foster an orderly society that allows maximum freedom. To want to wipe that out is asking for a utilitarian, amoral dictatorship to take over. You are right. But society doesn't want to wipe out the judeo-christian PRINCIPLES. In fact, to my mind the judeo-christian principle of the golden rule is what's behind giving other cultures the respect they deserve. It is the militant secularists who want to abolish Christianity, AND The principles which even non-believers embrace as fundamental to the preservation of a free and oerderly society, in order that there will be NO Objective standards, and that the word of those in power, based on nothing but achieving the objective of the moment, becomes the law of the land. Please tell us exactly which group has a stated goal of abolishing Christianity, Neal. This board is a serious discussion group, not a convention of conspiracy theorists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alliance Fanatic Posted January 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 Well I can bring up alot of instances when christians were brought to court over religous beliefs. A man in Ontario with a gay rights advocacy tried to force a christian printer, to print pro gay rights flyers, the man refused due to religous beliefs, and he was sent to a human rights courts, which forced him to give a fine to the gay man. In BC a school counsellor was fired over letters to a newspaper attacking BC's pro gay program, in which students read magazines proclaiming the joys of Sado-Masichism [think Jeffery Dahmer] In New Brunswick two gay men asked to sleep at a bed and breakfast, where they wanted to have sexual intorcourse, but the people who ran it wanted the bed and breakfast to be a family friendly retreat, the two men successfully sued the bed and breakfast, and the people closed down, and moved to the states. In Ontario a mayor was forced to resign due to the fact she did not want a gay pride parade in the town, she wanted the town to have a family friendly enviroment, however the gays won, and the mayor resigned. In Ontario a catholic school was forced to allow a gay couple to go to the prom, even though it contravened religous teaching. There are plenty of other cases where christians are always discriminated against. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 Although this is the Canadian Politics section some of you might enjoy this tidbit: Pat Robertson, the US religious broadcaster said that God told him recently George Bush was going to be elected for a second term. A minister, who is involved with with the separation of church and state in the US, replied that Pat Robertson got confused. Pat was talking with Carl Rove, not God. PS This is a joke!!! PPS Carl Rove is Bush's hatchet man, er, I mean, chief politial advisor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brainiac Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 In BC a school counsellor was fired over letters to a newspaper attacking BC's pro gay program, in which students read magazines proclaiming the joys of Sado-Masichism [think Jeffery Dahmer] Jeffery Dahmer was a cannibal. Sado-Masichism is not the same...it is a sexual kink that is performed between consenting adults. As for the counsellor being fired...on its face that is a little extreme, but I am curious what was written in the letter to the newspaper...what if a gay student wanted to talk to the counsellor? Would his beliefs effect his job? Are his beliefs Christian or just bigotted? In New Brunswick two gay men asked to sleep at a bed and breakfast, where they wanted to have sexual intorcourse, but the people who ran it wanted the bed and breakfast to be a family friendly retreat, the two men successfully sued the bed and breakfast.... Did the bed and breakfast owners allow couples with no children and who were not married stay at their place? Did the gay men say they wanted to stay there so they could screw all night? I find that difficult to believe. Again, the whole story might help shed some light on the situation. Also, are the owners Christian or just bigotted? In Ontario a catholic school was forced to allow a gay couple to go to the prom, even though it contravened religous teaching. Did the school allow straight couples to go to the prom? Was there going to be sex at the prom? If the two guys were straight would they still be allowed to go to the prom together? The Catholic church doesn't condone premarital sex, so what is the schools position on dating? I didn't understand why a gay guy went to a Catholic school in the first place though. In Ontario a mayor was forced to resign due to the fact she did not want a gay pride parade in the town, she wanted the town to have a family friendly enviroment, however the gays won, and the mayor resigned. She did not want a gay pride parade in the town. So she personally had a problem with gay people. You say she was forced to resign, but just because the gay people in town got to have a parade she resigned? Or did they make her resign? There are plenty of other cases where christians are always discriminated against. There are also plenty of cases of people using religion as a reason to discriminate against people. These people are the problem with religion today. I am a Christian (Baptist) and I don't understand why people think they can push their religious beliefs on others in society. Being a Christian I have never had anyone tell me I should shut up about my beliefs...but then again I don't use them to discriminate against my fellow citizens...and try to force my beliefs on people. If gay people want to have a parade, who cares. They pay taxes too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 the man refused due to religous beliefs, and he was sent to a human rights courts when there is a conflict between religion and human rights, what do you think should take precedence? There are plenty of other cases where christians are always discriminated against. All those examples you cite are cases where it is Chriistianity that s practiising discrimination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neal.F. Posted January 4, 2004 Report Share Posted January 4, 2004 Daniel, I think it is a human right for a businessman to either contract with or not contact with any potential client, for any reason, after all, it's his business. As for the B&B in PEI, the same principle applies. The owners of the B&B have the right to refuse any potential guest they wish. Anyone, for any reason. after all they OWN it. Now, it is my understanding that these two homosexuals were offered accomodations, but they would have been required to have separate bedrooms. I agree with the stand of the B&B owners, and would even go so far as impose the same type of conditions (ie: separate bedrooms) for a heterosexual unmarried couple. These individuals were targeted BECAUSE their refusal was on religious grounds. Had they refused on other grounds, there never would have been an issue Why should a town have to issue a parade permit to anyone who asks? The Mayor was not elected to be Santa Claus, but to provide good government and good order. If they refused the KKK or PETA or someone else with an agenda a parade permit there'd have been no issue, rest assured. As for the case of the Catholic school, the kid should have been asked to leave long ago, since he obviously did not agree with the cathechism, and was therefore not in Communion with the magisterium. So tell me... Do "rights" Only cut one way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Posted January 4, 2004 Report Share Posted January 4, 2004 Good points, Neal, all of them. Are the Politically Correct Thought/Behaviour Nazis running our businesses and our towns these days? Why don't gays keep their sexuality in the bedrooms where heterosexuals keep theirs? Why don't we start having AARP conventions or 7th Day Adventists frequenting gay bars and gay resorts? Why don't we organize "breeders parades" and have pregnant and nursing mothers and Dads with their noisy kids marching right behind gays in parades? Why don't we get into gays' faces at every opportunity like they do to heteros and make gays love us, because tolerance isn't quite enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brainiac Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 Why don't gays keep their sexuality in the bedrooms where heterosexuals keep theirs? Dunno? Why don't we start having AARP conventions or 7th Day Adventists frequenting gay bars and gay resorts? Why don't we? I am sure the gay bars and resorts (didn't know there was such a thing)wouldn't mind, good way to make some extra cash. Why don't we organize "breeders parades" and have pregnant and nursing mothers and Dads with their noisy kids marching right behind gays in parades? Good idea. I think the reason we don't is because breeders don't feel they need to have a parade. Be nice to see though. Maybe the pregnant and nursing mothers could get a float so they didn't have to walk. Why don't we get into gays' faces at every opportunity like they do to heteros and make gays love us, because tolerance isn't quite enough? I do that already. I have them love the fact that I am straight and not asshamed to let people know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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