Canada's Federal Conservatives

maplesyrup · December 30, 2003

Here we go again.

'Orchard files suit to block merger, reduce Conservative Party funding'

according to today's Globe and Mail.

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/Articl.../?query=orchard

Follow the money here, folks.

and on December 22, 2003 we had:

'Sinclair Stevens headed to court in hopes of reversing Conservative merger'

according to canadaeast.com

http://canadaeast.com/apps/pbcs.dll/articl...22/CPN/21400022

Orchard's appeal is the the second court case in the past two weeks against the merger.

It sure seems very quiet out there from the proponents of this merger.

We had that blip about New Brunswick Premier Bernard Lord entered the race, but since then things have kind of petered out.

It appears that Stephen Harper is the man to beat.

At this rate why even bother with a leadership race (no offence to Jim Prentice but...)?

maplesyrup · December 30, 2003

New Brunswick Premier Bernard Lord will not be running for the leadership, CTV has learned. Lord will be making a statement later today.

http://www.ctv.com/

This is absolutely devastating news for the Conservatives,.

Now, in the eyes of the Canadian public, the merger will appear to be an absolute takeover by the Alliance party.

Too bad.

PC4EVER · December 30, 2003

It will be seen that way only if Harper wins the leadership or if another person associate with the CA wins the leadership which is not likely to happen.

Harper can win, but his appeal to a non corporate fundraising for this leadership indicates his weakeness in that department.

We need a person able to bridge the gap between the two formers party and up to now, the only one position to do it is Prentice.

Alliance Fanatic · December 30, 2003

I don't think this race will only be between Harper and Prentice. I think that Jim Flarhety may take a run for it due to his appeal to social and fiscal conservative's. Hey you never know maybe if Lord decides not to run, more people will take the chance at running for the leadership.

Galahad · December 30, 2003

Hey you never know maybe if Lord decides not to run, more people will take the chance at running for the leadership.

What do you MEAN "if" ?

There is no ifs ands or buts about it, Lord ISN'T running.

Maplesyrup told us. LOOK!

"New Brunswick Premier Bernard Lord will not be running for the leadership, CTV has learned. Lord will be making a statement later today."

Are you deaf or something?

sir_springer · December 30, 2003

I cannot possibly express enough just how much I resent the claim or notion that Harper winning the leadership of the CPC merely represents a CA takeover.

That is a line of utter crap being propigated by the Liberal Left media for no other reason than their outright contempt of the Reform/CA movement, and anyone connected to it.

Further, it is an outright slap in the face to the hundreds of thousands of its members, past and present, as well as the millions of Canadians who have voted for the party.

It is beyond outrageous to suggest or imply that only someone from the PCs is qualified to lead this new party. In fact, it is downright insulting.

If Harper emerges as leader of this new party...and he damn well should...it will be for no other reason than that he deserves to.

He is, beyond a doubt and bar none, the most qualified man for the position. To suggest that he is not merely because he was leader of the CA verges, in the extreme, on outright discrimination and bigotry.

:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

It's bullsh*t that I am really, really getting fed up with and tired of enduring.

Neal.F. · December 30, 2003

Hear hear Springer. If the party's chances of succes were dependent on the whims of a 38 year old provincial premier, the party would not be worth a tinker's damn to begin with.

Harper would be a good leader , as would Strahl, Runciman or Flaherty.

There is depth in the organization. and any one of the above could ter the hapless empty giorgio Armani suit paul Martin to shreds in a debate. martin has nothing to offer. he's Chretien all over again. He has 10 years of mismanagement and arrogance to answer for.

Communist_boy · December 31, 2003

Stephen Harper, the leader of the new Conservatives, it may not be the CA taking over the PC but lord help the CPC if Harper leads it. If he is the best that they can offer then we might as well crown a Liberal as the King of Canada as he aint got a snowball's chance in hell. The Conservatives havnt been a force since before 1993.

After that they were bairly a party, lol, Kim Cambell that was a laugh, Brian Mulroney he was one of the bigest liers ive heard of.

The liberals will win this election just like the last three. Canada needs a radically new political party that will reform politics and give the power to where it truly belongs, with the PEOPLE of Canada, not the corporations, or two faced fink politicions.

BTW, I'm not speaking of Communism as my name may suggest, rather Comsocarchy, then we can be truly free.

There are no more Conservatives left in Canada, they have been invaded, and as for the CA they arnt on the right, they're so far right fell off the damn scale.

The revolution will begin, it already has, reform is coming, and all who stand in its way will we wiped away.

RT_1984 · December 31, 2003

Springer is absolutely right. I am so sick to DEATH of people saying we need a fresh face with no baggage. Harper has little baggage on the baggage scale from 1-10. Sure a comment here or there, but nothing more than anyone else (although lefties would nothing better than to convince people otherwise). He's billingual,a policy expert, has both a pc and alliance background. And seems to be the only one that can possibly distinguish the new party from the Paul Martin Liberals. We will not win on tax cuts alone. Social conservatism to a degree will have to be used. Face it, its one of the main reasons for the success of Reform in the first place. Manning knew the right degree to use as does Harper. Unfortunately, Stockwell Day didn't and it damaged our chances. Now under a new banner we'll have shed the alliance name. Perceptions are everything. People keep saying (and i'm seriously sick of this) that we need a party in the center. That's where Martin is. Why invent the wheel. Has Canadian politics been reduced to partisan bigotry. Besides, the center is only what the public decides it is. Most of the public are not ideological like we on this forum are. Do any of these idiot lefties really believe that people gave Mike Harris, two consecutive majority governments because they thought he was a right-wing, extremist, thug, chainsaw mike etc. Or Ralph Klein 3 terms. Give me a damn break. That's just the leftwing trying to create a self-fulfilling prophecy, and unfortunately people on this forum are willing to condescend and play their game. I for one, will not. What we want is a distinct, two party system like the dems and the republicans in the US. Harper is the only one to do this. Others either lack the skills, qualifications, or vision. No, he isn't Pierre Trudeau. Neither is Martin. But he could be Mackenzie King. Extremely patient and increasingly shrewd. Give the man some credit for the past two years after the Day debacle. No, he didn't manage to convince the rest of Canada to drop the PC's and adopt the Alliance, but that's only because of the visionless partisanship of the East, which will be remedied by the new party merger. Traditional Tory ridings in Atlantic Canada will remain tory any. These people don't care who the leader is (except for Mulroney of course but he was a special case), these people supported a washed up party of Joe Clark for God's sake. And PC organizers have the balls, to whine about Harper. Completely unqualified, absolute hollow partisanship which I would like nothing better than to see destroyed in this merger controversy.

Lost in Manitoba · December 31, 2003

Harper will not ever be the Prime Minister of Canada. Leader of the Opposition is all he will ever achieve in this this lifetime. If that's what you want, Merry Christmas, you got it. The angry white men have their mascot. Cheers.

RT_1984 · December 31, 2003

Lost in Manitoba: "Harper will not ever be the Prime Minister of Canada. Leader of the Opposition is all he will ever achieve in this this lifetime."

- Wow, what a bold statement. If Harper is so mediocre, then how did he ever become entrusted with Canada's second largest political party in the first place. Or how did he lead the NCC constantly dealing with the media. I guess they chose him because there was nobody else around and he was just so mediocre and drab. What an absolute bunch of BS. Look at George W. Bush - became President of the US. Not exactly the most articulate and charismatic person on the face of the earth now is he. And no one cares about such things as good ol superficial America. I hope the doubters and underestimators are proven wrong.

maplesyrup · December 31, 2003

-from the National Post today

http://canada.com/national/story.asp?id=F5...D5-5A527B899789

'So far, the leadership race has one official candidate: Calgary lawyer Jim Prentice. Harper has said he will officially declare his candidacy Jan. 12.

Meanwhile, former Progressive Conservative leader Peter MacKay is expected to enter the contest now that Lord is out of the picture. MacKay, a Nova Scotia MP, was worried about challenging Lord because the two politicians draw much of their support from Atlantic Canada.

The leadership vote will be held March 21.

Party sources said Tuesday they are still trying to draft other candidates, including longtime party strategist Hugh Segal and Toronto corporate titan Belinda Stronach.

Stronach helped broker the merger between the Alliance and the Tories earlier this year.'

maplesyrup · December 31, 2003

OK here it comes.

-from the Montreal Gazette

Good news for Martin in withdrawal of N.B.'s Lord'

"If Lord had run, Martin would have faced a left-right squeeze on the centre, which would be particularly dangerous in vote-rich Ontario."

http://www.canada.com/montreal/montrealgaz...A0-AC15FA529DF6

I believe that the best person for leader is Chuck Strahl. Let's get in the real world here. Canada would be fortunate if the Liberals could be held to a minority government in the next election. So Mr Strahl has 4 or 5 years to perfect his French, leading up to an opportunity to become prime minister, two elections from now.

Oh, well, at least the Canadian dollar is going up (up 20% in the past year), that's good news isn't it, at least if you want to visit the US?

And the soldiers in Alghanistan might be happy today, there's a rumour going around that Governor General Clarkson is going to buy them a round.

Neal.F. · December 31, 2003

Martin is the most boring excuse for a leader i've ever seen this side of Dalton McGuinty.

Harper has demonstrated true ability in terms of

enginnering the merger, , not to mention getting the Alliance back on a

solid footing, and keeping the caucus in good order.

He may very well surprise the swaggering cocky Liberals. Remember the story

of the tortoise and the hare.

Martin can count on losing 30 + seats in Ontario. The plethora of scandals that have hit the BC Liberals will erase any gains he may have made for the FedLibs out there.

He will have to make big gains in Quebec, which is no sure thing.

I still don't think he has anything to offer, he's no different than Crouton. After all, he signed all the cheques between '93 and 2001.

Harper is far more intelligent, and will destroy him in debate.... Layton,

as much as I despise everything he stands for with every fibre of my being, will shred Martin from the

left with more flamboyance than substance.

Let Martin's minions become more arrogant and overconfident. they may well

wake up one fine may morning, on the opposition benches..... but not before

running the paper shreddders 24/7 until the transition takes place.

I really , truly and objectively don't think Martin has anything to offer. He can't run his campaign with Nick Discepola, Scott Reid & Stan Keyes as his spokesmen

Brainiac · December 31, 2003

There is no doubt that Harper is a skilled politician...but I don't necessarily think people here in Ontario really give a crap so long as he is associated with the Alliance. I know people don't like to hear that, but the fact of the matter is people in Ontario tend not to vote for people that leave a bad taste in their mouths...look at the provincial NDP(that is if you can still see them). The Alliance most definitely has left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths here in Ontario. I hope the new Conservative party can pick up some more seats in this province, but I don't think they will win this coming election. it would be nice to have a little less Liberal and a little more of anyone else in the Federal government.

Neal.F. · December 31, 2003

Brainiac, I can assure you, that unless Mr. Harper is caught red-handed pulling a Jacko, the Conservatives will get 30 seats or more in Ontario.

You can take that to the bank. The only resentment in Ontario against the Alliance had to do with the disappointment over the party's performance in the election. This was combined with still-loyal Tories voting for the PCs or staying home.

Newsflash. There is no more Progressive Conservatibve Party. Newsflash. There is no more Canadian Alliance.

Neither party exists any longer, and there is now a party for everyone: The COnservative party of Canada.

There will be no more split vote. Mr Harper has also succeeded in disciplining the hitherto unruly caucus, and keeping things level, and also got finances back in order.

This combined with a resurgent NDP will result in at least 30 Ontario seats going Conservative, possibly more, depending on how the vote breaks.

As the election draws neareer, two things will happen that will bolster the currently rising poll numbers:

1) The CP leadership race will grab headlines. HArper will wisely refrain from attacking his opponents, and will spend his time in the headlines exposing Paul Martin for the fraud he is.

2) Paul Martin will actually have to govern and take responsibility for whatever happens under his watch. case in point: Pierre Pettigrew (Lookee here! Guess who's in Martins Cabinet?) bungled the HRDC Portfolio but when the fertilizer hit the fan, Jane Stewart had to take the fall. And you may rest assured that Crouton left some nicely concealed cowpies for martin to step in. That'll be his revenge.

The deadwood Liberal backbenchers of Ontario who have had their free ride since the vote splitiing happened in 1993 had better prepare their CVs. They'll be needing them in the next few months.

Meanwhile, what's that stench coming from Victoria? Not only will that hurt the Martinites in BC, there will be many in Ontario who will not like what they see. We will soon discover that Martin does not have the same teflon coating that Crouton had.

Quebec may be the one thing that saves martin's skin. The one drawback of losing Lord is the inroads that could have been made quickly in Quebec. We'll just have to do it the hard way, the longer way. But the Bloc may yet foil martin's plans too.

But lets just look at it. Should Martin fail to make gains in BC, and lose seats even, and then drop 30-40 in Ontario, he will need to gain 15-25 new ones in Quebec to hold his majority.

Do not underestimate Mr harper. he could very well take more in Ontario than we think.

Brainiac · December 31, 2003

The only resentment in Ontario against the Alliance had to do with the disappointment over the party's performance in the election.

I know some see the old Alliance as either being a party full of racists or that they are hell bent on making Canada more 'American', whatever that means. I can't say I agree with either of these sentiments, but that is the reasoning behind why some people distrust the old Alliance. Having them change their name is a start, but the perception is still there. As for your predictions, I suppose only time will tell.

As for the resentment being based on them not doing well I can see how that would come from people who voted for them, but how does that explain the resentment from people who didn't vote for them?

PC4EVER · December 31, 2003

Like someone said earlier, perception is everything and now the perception is "this merger is a takeover from the CA and if Harper becommes the new leade, it will confirm it."

So we have the choice to keep that perception alive and we know what reaction of the general public will be to that, 12 %, or we bring a new face with leadership, able to bridge both camp and changing the perception that it is a takeover.

Neal.F. · December 31, 2003

As for the resentment being based on them not doing well I can see how that would come from people who voted for them, but how does that explain the resentment from people who didn't vote for them?

The Kinsella fear factor?

maplesyrup · December 31, 2003

From Neil F's post of Dec31, 2003; 1:20 PM

Meanwhile, what's that stench coming from Victoria? Not only will that hurt the Martinites in BC, there will be many in Ontario who will not like what they see.
'
I agree with Neil concerning the RCMP raid at the BC Legislature last Sunday.

Having the police raid the BC Legislature is almost unprecendented in Canada.

-from The Tyee

'Raid: How big a Scandal?'

by Barbara McLintock

http://www.thetyee.ca/News/current/Raids+H...g+a+Scandal.htm

'Extraordinary powers invoked

The process of both obtaining a search warrant for offices in the legislative buildings and dealing with the potential evidence obtained in the raid is not only complex, but also almost unique in Canada. In fewer than a handful of cases have police ever moved to obtain a search warrant for materials located within the parliament buildings in Ottawa or any of the provinces.

Theoretically, the police have no jurisdiction within the legislative building, unless they have been invited there by the Speaker or one of his designates. It is part of the long British parliamentary tradition of separating the three branches of government (legislative, executive, and judicial), that the Speaker is master of his own house and it cannot be invaded by representatives of the other branches, such as law enforcement.

As well, the police had to convince a Justice of the B.C. Supreme Court that the only way to obtain the evidence they were seeking was through a search warrant of specific offices within the legislative confines. Although the appointment was not made public at the time, the government's Criminal Justice Branch in early December appointed William Berardino as special prosecutor in the case. That allowed Berardino, a highly-respected Vancouver lawyer, to work with the police in drafting the documents necessary to put before the judge.

Once the judge had granted the warrant, Solicitor General Rich Coleman, accompanies by several Mounties, flew to Kamloops, home of House Speaker Claude Richmond. There, on Saturday evening, they explained the situation to Richmond and asked his permission as Speaker to execute the warrants. Richmond gave the necessary consent.'

Along another vein, I'm curious about Chuck Strahl. Has he given any indication as to whether or not he will be seeking the leadership? He might be the one that could bridge the gap that apparently still exists within the party.

It was interesting reading his explanation about the DRC returning to the Alliance fold.

sir_springer · December 31, 2003

Like someone said earlier, perception is everything and now the perception is "this merger is a takeover from the CA and if Harper becommes the new leade, it will confirm it."
So we have the choice to keep that perception alive and we know what reaction of the general public will be to that, 12 %, or we bring a new face with leadership, able to bridge both camp and changing the perception that it is a takeover.

Utter balderf**kingdash!!!

That is only "perception" insofar as the Liberal Left media is playing it for all it is worth...

And to the degree that the chattering classes buy into such mindless blather.

The choice you have, whether or not you are aware, is to use your own God given brains to make your own judgements about who is best qualified to lead this new party...

Or to let someone else do it for you.

You want to know who freaks out the Liberals and their media mutts more than any would dare to ever reveal?

Stephen Harper.

Why?

Because he's a real threat to their grip on power in this sorry ass excuse for a confederation.

Because he's about as astute a politician any of them have seen in some time.

Because he's packing a degree of intellect that is quite literally beyond most of their own capabilities to even begin to grasp.

Because he's no one's lapdog; he stands alone in his determination to see change affected in Ottawa, and refuses to pay due homage to the "establishment" therein.

Because he has political savvy a la Preston Manning and/or even Brian Mulroney.

Because he operates at a level at least six moves ahead of just about everyone else.

Because his record of accomplishment in just 18 short months as leader of a party that was teetering on the brink of the political abyss of obscurity has been, by all comparable standards, astounding.

Because he, through all these skills and talents, has accomplished what just about everyone who is anyone thought was a virtual impossibility...and did so with incredible aplomb and acumen.

Nevertheless...

To paraphrase Stanfield: If this guy walked on water, the media would say he can't swim.

Harper, IMHO, is the embodiment of the Liberal Left's worst nightmare come true.

Sooner or later, that fraud Paul Martin is going to have face Stephen Harper...he can no longer hide behind Chretien's skirt.

And Canadians, at that precise moment, are going to witness a true battle of minds and intellect.

My money is on Harper all the way on this one.

Because he is going to, a la Turner, thrash that arrogant son of a bitch beyond what anyone even dared imagine possible.

It will be at that precise moment when the proverbial shinola hits the political fan in this country.

And the grand illusion that Martin has plotted for ten years will crash down around his own ankles.

You know what's so awesome about all of this?

It's this:

People are absolutely dying for someone to do exactly this to Paul Martin and his Liberal Party. Millions of people. Millions of voters.

Their fatigue with these clowns and arrogant bastards is almost beyond words to encompass.

They don't want image and hype. They don't want inuendo and mindless drivel.

They've had their fill of that crap.

They want principle, integrity, and respect.

The want the real McKoy...for a GD change!

And the moment they perceive the reality of Harper in contrast to Martin, all bets on the Liberals are off.

Mark my words here.

Paul Martin's back is up against the political abyss...and he damned well knows it, too.

PC4EVER · January 1, 2004

Dear Sir !

I won't quote you. I am not sure there would be sufficient space on that server. But there are some points that I want to DISCUSS with you, if it's possible.

When you say that the takeover spin is a Liberal one, you should take in consideration that there are a lot of VOTERS who voted Liberals the last three elections and can switch to us, if we can at least stay close to what they are thinking.

And as you said Harper is an intelligent person and he knows it. He is already starting to lean towards more center politics to attrack more support. I saw a reaction of fear from his own supporters as soon as he started going into that direction and they were not please at all.

But the fact is he will still be perceived as the right wing guy because there is nobody else furthur right. Unless, Craig Chandler is running again.

Like it or not, this is the perception of Canadians about Harper.

If you see Harper six moves in advance, that's exactly what he and you should see coming. Or, if you only want to justify why it should be Harper, then just re-write what you wrote in your earlier message.

sir_springer · January 1, 2004

PC4EVER...

And I'll try to keep this brief.

It was observed very early in Harper's first leadership campaign that he was moving to the center in order to attract support of moderates. He clearly thumped Stock Day et al. His core of support came from long time...i.e., hardline...Reformers, I remind you, of whom we can thus surmise had little problem with Stephen's political shift.

Regarding perception:

An observation for you. Do you think Paul Martin is really some sort of a "conservative"? Really?

Or is he merely trying to be "perceived" as one?

And if so, why?

I'll tell you why. Because he "perceives" that someone like Harper...as did both Manning and Day...can find considerable traction with Canadian voters. Do not forget that Paul Martin knows Stephen Harper on a personal level, at least to some extent. I suspect that Martin, unlike so many others, would not be so foolish as to underestimate Harper.

Martin is far more concerned about Harper than any real damage that idiot, Jack Layton, could possibly inflict...and he should be.

More to the point, Martin is all too aware...and he would have to be a moron not to be...that the Canadian electorate is desperately looking for a real change in government from the Liberals. He knows all too well that, as I said, political fortunes can and do spin on a dime. And he knows all too well that this never happens until the heat of an election battle. Lastly, he knows all too well that Harper is an extremely capable foe, particularly in debate...where Martin himself does not shine nearly as well as some would like to think. Don't think that Martin has forgotten what happened to his old pal, John Turner.

Martin isn't moving his party...contrary to the spin...to the right of center. He's trying to merely regain the center itself...before Harper beats him to it.

A bit of political wisdom for you: Politicians do not win elections by moving to the center ground. Rather, they pull the center ground towards themselves. Ya see?

Perception, right?

Lastly...

If you've ever played chess, you will know that he who plays the game six moves ahead of his competition, not only determines the direction of the game, but almost inevitably wins it as well.

maplesyrup · January 1, 2004

Brainiac is correct in what he is saying, about the way, fairly or unfairly, the Harper/Alliance perception is., in certain parts of the country.

Now maybe Harper will be able to turn it around. He does have his strengths, bilingual, going to focus on Quebec, brought about the merger, is bright.

And maybe, when the police are through with that 'raid on the BC legislature' thing, the most important issue in the next election will be honesty and integrity. Harper will do fine there as well.

No one has responded yet - is Chuck Strahl still contemplating running?

MacKay will run, I guess, but not to win, maybe to cut another deal using his delegates, and attempt to become the kingmaker. He'll be lucky to win his seat again.

Harper will do ok if he wins.

But if I were strategizing for the Conservatives, for the next election, I would look at Strahl, if he was running for the following reasons:

The best that could happen realistically, in the next election, and even that is a long shot at the moment, is to hold the Liberals to a minority government

1- he's working on his French - good. (I know it's a pain in the ass to some, but this is Canada, eh?)

2 - he's from BC (a candidate from Alberta isn't needed, as the Conservatives have a lock on Alberta, I presume)

But having someone from BC, with Martin's BC troops in turmoil over the 'legislature raid' complications, might be a great opportunity to do well in BC again.

3 - he's perceived as neutral in this merger process due to to his role in the DRC (don't want to have resentments boiling over after the leadership contest) - look at the trouble Martin has created for himself by dissin' Chretien and his followers.

4 - he has charasma and like it or not, an election campaign is mainly about leadership.

5 - he might have more appeal in the East because he iwill not be tagged with the baggage because he hasn't been leader

(My point here is not to discuss the pros and cons of what Spencer said, but if you asked the people in the East about it, all they would probably remember is that Harper is the leader of Spencer's party. They probably don't even remember Spencer's name.)

Just trying to look at the big picture.

As for Prentice, I don't know much about him.

By-the-way, who is Deborah Grey supporting?

Has she said anything yet?

And what other big names are backing who here?

Who will Mulroney back?

sir_springer · January 1, 2004

Deb Gray is backing Harper, as she had no hesitation in stating during an interview on "Mansbridge, One on One".

Harper reportedly has at least 50 members of his caucus backing him.

Stock Day's support is still up in the air, but was rumored to be favoring Bernard Lord. As was Jason Kenny also rumored to be.

Now that Lord is out of the picture, it will be interesting to see where Stock lands on this one. Frankly, I think he kinda owes Harper a favor in return. Stephen certainly could have stuffed Stock back in a corner somewhere...but didn't. And Stock has benefited greatly from this opportunity, as has the CA. He's been a simply marvelous Foreign Affairs critic.

Keith Martin stated a while back that he's backing Harper.

I suspect that a considerable chunk of Ontario's Big Blue, now that the "Lord" incident is finally behind us, will swing to Stephen Harper. Tom Long was rumored, despite Lord's potential entry, to be leaning towards Harper. This is probably a given now. He was a leading organizer of Harper's Leadership Dinner in Toronto on June 16, and introduced him to the 1000 attendees is some pretty glowing terms. Note, too...Harper backed Tom Long for leader back in 2000.

Early on, also stating their support for Harper were John Reynolds, Monte Solberg, Ray Speaker, and...according to what I read in the media at that time...Chuck Strahl.

Our own MP, Jim Abbott, is a huge supporter of Stephen Harper.

Looking pretty good so far.