PC4EVER

Harper has nothing to gain debating with Layton as Stronach did in the CBC and Global debate. But I found strange and funny to see those who are supporting Harper are not arguing the same thing. And as Stronach, it will hurt Harper if he refuses the challenge.

Harper left the party in 1997 because he had a different with Manning. Then, he did what Martin did. Plants his seeds to get the power. So that's normal if Manning is saying good things about Belinda. They don't like each other.

Whaterver your prediction are, put a big 0 for PC in Quebce for the last election. Pellaken, 8 PC in Quebec is just fabulation. Maybe, we could get 2 or 3 with Stronach as leader, but for sure a big 0 with Harper.

I predict a big win for Stronach in her riding tonight and a big lost and the beginning of the end for Harper. Then, will follow the other lost against Prentice next saturday. Another blow against Harper who support someone against Prentice. And he will loose big time. Finally, his own riding won't give their support to Harper. Why ? Because they know him too well.

This has been sent to Quebec members today by e-mail. It is 11 former MP in Quebec and 47 riding presidents. Not mentionning 2 former Reform candidate "APPUIS DE BELINDA STRONACH AU QUÉBEC Francis-Pierre Rémillard, futur candidat PCC, Laurier Ste-Marie Jean-Pierre Blackburn, ex-député, Jonquière Michel Côté, ex-député, Langelier Marcel R. Tremblay, ex-député, Québec-Est Jacques Vien, ex-député et président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Laurentides-Labelle Gabriel Fontaine, ex-député, Lévis Nicole Roy-Arcelin, ex-député et présidente de l’Association PCC d’Ahuntsic. Jean Landry, ex-député Bloc Québeçois, Lotbinière Claude Lanthier, ex-député, LaSalle Yvon Côté, ex-député, Richmond Suzanne Duplessis, ex-député, Louis-Hébert. Allan Koury, ex-député, Hochelaga-Maisonneuve Thérèse Boucher, présidente, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Lévis-Bellechasse Line Côté, présidente, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC d’Abitibi-Témiscamingue Raynald Caissy, président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Rimouski-Témiscouata Adam Davies, président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Lac-Saint-Louis Guy De Coste, président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Gaspésie-Îles-de-la-Madeleine Marc Deslauriers, président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Manicouagan Luc Desrosiers, président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot François Henri, président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Shefford Mario Jacques, président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Drummond Charles Laflamme, président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Beauce Georges Lamarre, président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Québec Josée Larocque, présidente, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC d’Argenteuil-Mirabel Ghislain Lavoie, président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Roberval-Lac St-Jean Lisette Leclerc, présidente, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Matapédia-Matane Paul Mayer, président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Notre-Dame-de-Grâce-Lachine Jean-François Mongeau, président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Brossard-La Prairie Ercolano Pingiotti, président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Saint-Léonard-Saint-Michel Michel Ploudre, président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Richelieu Normand Poulet, président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de La Pointe-de-l’Île Jean-Claude Richard, président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Mégantic-L’Érable Marc Rousseau, président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC d’Outremont Claude Savaria, président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Verchères-Les Patriotes Simon St. Gelais, président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Montmorency-Charlevoix-Haute-Côte-Nord André Turcot, président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Châteauguay-Saint Constant André Viau, président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Hochelaga Guylaine Villeneuve, présidente, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Rivière-du-Nord Marc Bissonnette, ex-candidat PPC et président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Rosemont-La Petite Patrie Clermont Gauthier, ex-candidat PPC et président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Louis Hébert Éric L'Heureux, ex-candidat PPC et président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Sherbrooke Richard Lafleur, ex-candidat PPC – Longueuil-Pierre-Boucher et président de l’association PCC de Terrebonne-Blainville Otmane Brixi, ex-candidat PPC et président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Saint-Bruno-St-Hubert Yohan Nolet, ex-candidat PPC et président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Lotbinière-Chutes-de-la-Chaudière Jacques Parenteau, ex-candidat PPC et président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Chambly-Borduas Joseph-Pierre Rouleau, ex-candidat PPC et président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Saint-Laurent-Cartierville Walter Stirling, ex-candidat PPC et président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Saint-Lambert Howard Bruce, ex-candidat Reform Party et président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Portneuf Bernard Côté, ex-candidat PPC et président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Jeanne-Le Ber Georges Villeneuve, président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Rivières-des-Milles-Iles Michel Paulette, président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Montcalm Michel Lauzier, président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Berthier-Maskinongé Jean-Denis Pelletier, ex-candidat PPC et président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Laval-les-Iles John McMurray, président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Marc-Aurèle-Fortin Jacques-Antoine Dubé, président, Association de la circonscription électorale PCC de Pontiac Jean-Claude Roy, ex-candidat Reform Party, président de l’association PCC de Montmagny-l’Islet-Kamouraska-Rivière-du-Loup Serge H. Malaison, président de l’Association PCC de Laurier-Ste-Marie" I guest Harper will like this one.

I found strange that in the description of the candidate that they put two negative points to describe Stronach and none for the two others. I am wondering if it could influence the answer ??? 1. A male candidate from Western Canada who was leader of the Canadian Alliance and the former President of the national Citizens Coalition who speaks both French and English. 41% 2. A male candidate who was a former Ontario provincial cabinet minister and very active in politics in Ontario who speaks both French and English. 26% 3. A female candidate who was the successful chief executive officer of one of Canada's largest companies, who has never been elected to office, and does not speak French. 20% When you use only the name, she is jumping in second place at the same level, only 7% behind Harper. "Based on just their names, respondents ranked the candidates (see percentages). The circled numbers represents how candidates were previously ranked by description: 1. STEPHEN HARPER: 27% 2. BELINDA STRONACH: 20% 3. TONY CLEMENT: 13% "

Could Clement be acceptable for so-cons, like you said ? He is more conservatives than progressive with the Harris/Eves common sense revolution. Everyone is carrying baggages, Stronach, Harper and Clement, but could he be acceptable for Westeners and so-cons ? And what about you Neal, a so-cons living in the East ?

Neal, BM is not Quebec establishment. You can put him on a national stage, I think. Up to now, Clement seems to get a lot of attention from people who are working on the ground. For Maple, as far as I am concerned, I don't know what is happening to Joe and I don't really care also. He will probably get retired as soon the election is called.

To Morgan. It is spin against spin. If you think it is Harper that the new party needed, it is OK. But don't start by saying it is Harper and then try to justify your choice. Do the reverse. I don't support anybody up to now. I was supporting Prentice. I want to take a good look of who could be the best leader to represent the new party. For all the reasoins I gave in others post couples of days ago, I don't think Harper but espacially those who are surrounding him could do a good job. The perception in the west is very different from here in Quebec. It's too bad, you can say, but it is a fact. How would you like to be called by unilingual francophone for a survey when it is clear that it come from Harper's group. Or being answering in french only by the new CP in Ottawa, and not being able to get a answer in english from that office. When the aggreement says the equality of treatement of both language, sorry, we taught that it was applying right away. And if it was only that. If the way Harper is conducting his campaign will reflect how he will managed the party and then the country, no thanks.

Well, Neal, I don't say I have the monopoly of the truth. I just try to figure out why we did not get elected as you said with principles 31 years of the last 40. And for me, it was the explanation. So from there, where do we go ? Also, when you say the QC establisment is behind Stronach? Who do you refer to? Initials only will be fine.

"One side alone will be asked to make all the concessions....all the time." Yes, because you are in the far side of the political spectrum. Do you think that the NDP has any chance what so ever to run this country one day ?? It's mathematical and it's one of the problem with democraty. The power of the majority can be explain by the power of the average and at this game anyone on each side won't be able to get the power unless they use another system. Civil war, revolution, pustch. Beside that, name me one really right wing party who gain a majority government democraticly. Even Republicans has to make compromises to get elected. As soon as they go to far, the Democrats take over. Anyway, in the States, they change almost all the times after 2 mandates. You are like a bunch of wagons without locomotives. And more you will take times to realize that, more you will not understand why an Alliance party style won't ever be a goverment in Canada.

[Martin would not have worry at all if anyone but Harper becomes leader of the PC's. QUOTE] That's propably why they said they would prefer to see Harper as the leader of the new party for the next election. To get it in the harder way. You know, you have to make the difference between the spin (what you or other like you to believe) and would happen based on common sense. If Harper is leading the CP, it brings the new party at the farest right that could be possible in Canada. So it give to the Liberals all the room in the right center needed to win easily the next election again. So, social conservatives has to make a decision. Either they join to a party who is more social progressive and we have a chance to win something. Or you keep you platform and we will stay in the opposition forever.

You are right Neil. In a sense, Stronach can, with all her ressources, sign up and set up an organization fairly quicly. Don't forget that the Prentice team is waiting for signals from their organiser leader and you have now the MacKay team, at least what's left ready to go now. It's just a matter of who they will support. Tony or Belinda ? For now, I see Harper pushing very hard the big ball at the end of a rope. But more he is pushing, more the big ball will come back fast and hard on him.

What does Canada wants ? I think we are kidding ourselves if we think that Canadians will ever elect a social and fiscal conservatives party. Even Harper is acknowleging that by taking his platform to more center policies. So, now, you sound like the Red tories saying, if it's not my candidate, I am leaving. I thought the merger was to compromise in between our two views ? Is it possible to find something in the meddle and be attractive to more Canadians ? The problem is who is best position to lead the party ? Those who think that it is Harper have to realize that he is carrying a lot of negative baggage. " PUBLICATION: The New Brunswick Telegraph Journal DATE: 2004.01.13 SECTION: Opinion PAGE: A6 COLUMN: Editorials Finding the right politician for job We Believe: Stephen Harper carries damaged baggage into leadership race Question: What do you think about Stephen Harper's candidacy for the federal Conservative party leadership? Stephen Harper wants to lead the Conservative Party of Canada into the next federal election. We wish him all the best upon his arrival in New Brunswick, but suggest this freshly minted party does not need a politician with such political baggage. Not former Tory leader Peter MacKay, and not Mr. Harper. In the latter's case, it's simple: his entry into the leadership race carries the kind of political history that voters rarely overlook and embrace. Many will view his candidacy as a confirmation that the merger with the federal Tories is no more than a takeover by the Canadian Alliance. Mr. Harper will be seen as the Canadian Alliance candidate. There's no hope of the new party becoming a political force in Quebec under Mr. Harper since they see "Canadian Alliance" as just another title for "Reform Party." He will never live down stigmatizing Atlantic Canadians as "defeatist" - a certain problem for gaining support in this region. And, we doubt the man who once referred to workers that came into the Alliance fold from other parties as "castoffs, retreads and traitors" could be entrusted to not only bring peace within the Conservative ranks, but build the party into a viable option to the Liberals. The bottom line: a Conservative Party of Canada under Mr. Harper will at best, be an opposition party. The Conservatives don't need a politician they can't sell nationally. They need a leader who can ignite a movement across our nation to reinvent the political right and make it an alternative to the Liberals, especially in Quebec. Today, Paul Martin is a popular Liberal prime minister who leads a strong party with deep pockets. But honeymoons don't last forever. Expectations of this prime minster are so high that a popularity crash is inevitable. Already, it appears the New Democrats under Jack Layton are poised to make moderate gains. Thus, the groundwork the Conservatives lay this year - selecting a leader the majority of Canadians respect and putting in place a platform and policies that the Conservative Party of Canada can stamp as its own and not disguised as an Alliance makeover - are crucial components to this country's political landscape. When Conservatives present their policies to Canadians, it must be done in a courageous manner - that the party will actually attempt to win the next federal election, should it be called this spring. With so much at stake, it makes no sense to select a leader with Mr. Harper's unwinnable baggage. " For me, Harper is not the solution. We have to find someone who is able to carry western revendications and also reflected what Canadians want ? And I think it should be somewhere in between !

You are right Neal F. And I want to apologize to Sir for that post. It was unacceptable from me to post this message and if you think I don't like westener, it's not the case. I supported one at the last leadership and I was ready to the same for this one. Put it on my frustration and not the religion.

F*** Y** ! Even if Harper is winning it, he will never be prime minister of this country. Because like it or not, in the east, we still have more peolple than the fringin untolerant right wing westener who supporting Harper and the former Allliance whatever leader.

About that poll in the Globe & Mail yesterday. Since, anybody can set up computers in line to vote in a massive way for one candidate, that poll means nothing or at least we should be very suspicious about the result even over 10,000 entries has been cast. It's been done at the last leadership and I checked personnaly, I was able to vote more than one time within a minute. Harper is damaging himself by trying to control the leadership process at the first leadership committe meeting last monday. By using these tactics, he shows his real face as someone who wants to win at any cost and with anti-democratic value. If it was the first attemps, I would not say that, but it is clearly a pattern that won't appeal to CP members and Canadian population at the end. 1- To the aggremment in principles unifying the two party, Harper brought to the negociation table that only him and MacKay could run for th new party. Obviously, it was not accepted. 2- CA staff was openly worked for Harper campaign while still paying by the CA or the new CP, and they are using the former PCP members list, while no one else has the CA members list then themselves. 3- At the leadership meeting, his representatives tried to overule PC representatives by electing one PC rep as president of the committe, and removed her vote of any decisions that the committe would decide. And obviously, the first rules was to use the new C-24 financing rules for the leadership as Harper asked previously. Now, that Harper is inside the box, we can expect anything on his side to control and make sure that others candidates won't interfere in his march to power. I think everyone should have equal chances in this race and have a fair proccess to let the members decide who should lead that new party and not a dictatorial way to do things as Harper is doing right now.

Dear Sir ! I won't quote you. I am not sure there would be sufficient space on that server. But there are some points that I want to DISCUSS with you, if it's possible. When you say that the takeover spin is a Liberal one, you should take in consideration that there are a lot of VOTERS who voted Liberals the last three elections and can switch to us, if we can at least stay close to what they are thinking. And as you said Harper is an intelligent person and he knows it. He is already starting to lean towards more center politics to attrack more support. I saw a reaction of fear from his own supporters as soon as he started going into that direction and they were not please at all. But the fact is he will still be perceived as the right wing guy because there is nobody else furthur right. Unless, Craig Chandler is running again. Like it or not, this is the perception of Canadians about Harper. If you see Harper six moves in advance, that's exactly what he and you should see coming. Or, if you only want to justify why it should be Harper, then just re-write what you wrote in your earlier message.

Like someone said earlier, perception is everything and now the perception is "this merger is a takeover from the CA and if Harper becommes the new leade, it will confirm it." So we have the choice to keep that perception alive and we know what reaction of the general public will be to that, 12 %, or we bring a new face with leadership, able to bridge both camp and changing the perception that it is a takeover.

It will be seen that way only if Harper wins the leadership or if another person associate with the CA wins the leadership which is not likely to happen. Harper can win, but his appeal to a non corporate fundraising for this leadership indicates his weakeness in that department. We need a person able to bridge the gap between the two formers party and up to now, the only one position to do it is Prentice.