Rice admits U.S. handling of Arar case 'imperfect'

[Peter F]

One of Arar's crimes is being a citizen of Syria.

He came to Canada legally under a Syrian passport at the age of 17. So at that time he was definately a Syrian citizen.

Eventually he was granted Canadian citizenship. The granting of Canadian citizenship does not negate any other citizenships a person may have.

When Arar travelled to Tunisia for his holiday he was not travelling under a Syrian passport but under his rightfully held Canadian passport.

So where did the US immigration authorities get the idea he was a Syrian citizen? Probably because his passport indicated he was born in Syria. That made him, in US immigration eyes a citizen of Syria.

So how doe's one renounce one's citizenship? Would it have been adequate for Arar to tell the US immigration people that he was not a citizen of Syria?

Is there any possible means of Arar to escape the accident of his birth?

No. No matter what Arar said or did, no matter what his past, he was a Syrian citizen by birth and there is no known way for Arar to have escaped that designation.

It is not a crime to be born in another country.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Is there any possible means of Arar to escape the accident of his birth?

No. No matter what Arar said or did, no matter what his past, he was a Syrian citizen by birth and there is no known way for Arar to have escaped that designation.

It is not a crime to be born in another country.

Arar's nation of birth is not an accident anymore than if he were born in Canada. We're all born somewhere, but most of us manage to avoid the red tape spaghetti of hop-scotching about the globe with dual or n-citizenship to smoke and joke with Al Qaeda perps.

If Americans are simple minded about such things, it's because we haven't been enlightened by the great multicultural god and his prophet Trudeau. Still, millions of others have managed to immigrate and navigate their way to Canada or America without inviting so much attention, including Syrians.

[Leafless]

Arar's nation of birth is not an accident anymore than if he were born in Canada. We're all born somewhere, but most of us manage to avoid the red tape spaghetti of hop-scotching about the globe with dual or n-citizenship to smoke and joke with Al Qaeda perps.

That's called common sense relating to personal responsibility to safeguard negative actions other countries might take in order to preserve their national interest.

Arar flaunted his perceived freedoms a little to freely.

[jbg]

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/10/24/rice-arar.html

Take your meds Bush_Cheney2004. Looks like your government is <gasp> admitting a mistake.

Is some sort of personal attack part of every post of yours?

And why would you be surprised when a leader in a democracy admits a mistake? It's not as if the consequences would be a beheading.

[jbg]

When Arar travelled to Tunisia for his holiday he was not travelling under a Syrian passport but under his rightfully held Canadian passport.

***********

It is not a crime to be born in another country.

Tunisia is a great garden spot of the world I suppose. Great tourist destination.

Why hasn't anyone who loves him so much inquired as to what he was doing in these places.

[Peter F]

Tunisia is a great garden spot of the world I suppose. Great tourist destination.

Why hasn't anyone who loves him so much inquired as to what he was doing in these places.

Get over it. Visiting Tunisia is not a crime nor reason for suspicion nor incarceration.

[Guest American Woman]

Tunisia is a great garden spot of the world I suppose. Great tourist destination.

Why hasn't anyone who loves him so much inquired as to what he was doing in these places.

"These places?"

He was on a family vacation. Tunisia is on the Mediterranean Sea. Sounds perfectly awful! Why oh why didn't someone stop him from going on a family vacation on the Mediterranean Sea?

Edited October 28, 2007 by American Woman

[Peter F]

Arar flaunted his perceived freedoms a little to freely.

and the difference betwee Arar and the rest of the vacationers on a lay-over at JFK?

Arar had been born in Syria, just like many other vactioners, and Arar had coffee with a suspected terrorist, just like many other Canadians of dual citizenship or not.

The entire thing was entirely arbitrary - wich is not a sound basis on which to conduct law enforcement...or a war on terrorism for that matter.

...Or, Arar really is a terrorst! and he got sent back to his Axis of Evil country for debreifing. Now he's a perfect mole with 10million buck to boot!

Any way you look at it this has not been good for the war on terrorism. But lets not try to change nuthin...keep the buffoons at the RCMP and CSIS...they're doing a fine job.

[Leafless]

and the difference betwee Arar and the rest of the vacationers on a lay-over at JFK?

Arar had been born in Syria, just like many other vactioners, and Arar had coffee with a suspected terrorist, just like many other Canadians of dual citizenship or not.

Arar was not like any other vacationer.

In fact Syria said this about Arar:

April 30, 2003:

Syria tells Canada it will charge Arar with membership in a banned Muslim organization, the Muslim Brotherhood of Syria.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/

Syria's political problems are highlighted in an interview with Muslim Brotherhood Leader Ali Bayanouni who in part says:

MA: How optimistic are you about change in Syria?

AB: The status quo is unsustainable, especially if Syria is increasingly alienated by the outside world.

MA: What is your assessment of the pressures applied on Syria by the West, in particular the United States?

AB: These pressures are not designed to meet the interests of the Syrian people and instead work in favor of American and Israeli interests.

Read it all about the contempt for the U.S. and Israeli.

http://www.jamestown.org/terrorism/news/ar...ticleid=2369769

[bush_cheney2004]

... The entire thing was entirely arbitrary - wich is not a sound basis on which to conduct law enforcement...or a war on terrorism for that matter.

No...it was not arbitrary at all. Arar was under government scrutiny for specific behaviors and contacts that met profile criteria. Any basis which judges all to be protected from scrutiny until arrested would be a far more unsound approach. This was exactly the criticism directed at America's security posture after 9/11 (i.e "connect the dots"). Arar, having been fingered by Canada, simply had to go somewhere else with a one-way ticket.

[mikedavid00]

Arar had coffee with a suspected terrorist, just like many other Canadians of dual citizenship or not

Ah yes.. the truth of what really happened slowely starts to appear here on the forum.

Arar is an undesireable in Canada. It was widely agreed upon on another form that he should be deported immediatly.

[Guest American Woman]

The bottom line is that every nation has a right to prohibit entry to anyone they don't feel comfortable letting into their country. I used the example that Canada doesn't let in people who've had a DUI. I didn't get any response to that, but let's face it, someone with a DUI certainly poses no more of a threat to Canada than Arar does to the U.S. Yet our government isn't telling Canada that it should let people with a DUI in. I realize not everyone with a DUI is kept out, but it's arbitrary, as you are claiming picking up Arar was, Peter F. The fact is, people are being denied entry to Canada because of a DUI they had years ago. That's Canada's right, whether one agrees with it or not. It's our right whether or not to allow Arar back into the country, and I really don't see where Canada has the right to pressure us to do differently. It's not up to Canada who we let in.

And I'll say one more time. After what happened to Arar in the States, I can't imagine why he'd WANT to come back. He sure must be one trusting person to have been through what he says he's been through and still trust our government enough to come back; to risk being at the mercy of our government again. If I were in a nation that sent me off to another country and I was horribly tortured as a result, I sure wouldn't go back to that country again. Who here would?

[jbg]

And I'll say one more time. After what happened to Arar in the States, I can't imagine why he'd WANT to come back. He sure must be one trusting person to have been through what he says he's been through and still trust our government enough to come back; to risk being at the mercy of our government again. If I were in a nation that sent me off to another country and I was horribly tortured as a result, I sure wouldn't go back to that country again. Who here would?

Sure beats Tunisia, Syria or Afghanistan.

[Peter F]

Americanwoman:

It's our right whether or not to allow Arar back into the country, and I really don't see where Canada has the right to pressure us to do differently. It's not up to Canada who we let in

.

Most certainly. The USofA can refuse entry to Clowns if they so desire. They are a soveriegn state and can do as they wish. They certainly do not seek my or anyone elses permission, nor do they need to. They felt they should ship Arar off and they shipped Arar off. I have no issue with American soveriegnty over who comes or goes within thier own borders.

I do have an issue with the US claim of blamelessness. It wasn't Arar's fault to be shipped off to Syria. It wasn't Arars fault to be considered a terrorist suspect. It was Arar's fault that he didn't realize that his Syrian birth would be reason for suspicion and eventual torture as a result of the actions and beleifs of others. He should know better...and so should I.

[Peter F]

Ah yes.. the truth of what really happened slowely starts to appear here on the forum.

Arar is an undesireable in Canada. It was widely agreed upon on another form that he should be deported immediatly.

Yes, Arar should have know he was having coffee with a man that the RCMP and CSIS were watching...no, wait...that was a secret - He most certainly should not have known that.

Too bad the people on the other forum didn't inform the Arar Commission. Perhaps they should tell the cops...

[bush_cheney2004]

...I do have an issue with the US claim of blamelessness. It wasn't Arar's fault to be shipped off to Syria. It wasn't Arars fault to be considered a terrorist suspect. It was Arar's fault that he didn't realize that his Syrian birth would be reason for suspicion and eventual torture as a result of the actions and beleifs of others. He should know better...and so should I.

Blame for what? Legally deporting Arar, a Syrian citizen, to his nation of birth by way of Jordan after Canada fingered him as a terror perp and refused to repatriate him?

Seems the US was damned if you do...damned if you don't.

[noahbody]

Yes, Arar should have know he was having coffee with a man that the RCMP and CSIS were watching...no, wait...that was a secret - He most certainly should not have known that.

No, Arar should have remembered the man the RCMP and CSIS were watching signed his rental lease. His own false answers during interrogation, made him appear untrustworthy.

[Peter F]

Blame for what? Legally deporting Arar, a Syrian citizen, to his nation of birth by way of Jordan after Canada fingered him as a terror perp and refused to repatriate him?

Seems the US was damned if you do...damned if you don't.

You are right, of course. The US acted on the information they were provided. They had nothing to jail him for but every reason in the world to deport him.

I cannot blame the US for that.

The US immigration service deports undesireable foreign nationals all the time. I imagine that when they do deport they don't ask permission of the state they are deporting the undesirable too, for permission to deport.

I expect, that normally, the immigration guys would put the undesirable onto the next plane to the country of his passport.

It strikes me as odd that that didnot happen in Arar's case. I can see why they held him in jail for a few days. I can see why they eventually chose to deport him after the Canadian authorities finally informed them that they had only the flimsiest of reasons to suspect Arar. So flimsy, in fact, that even under Canada's new anti-terrorism laws, they would still be unable to incarcerate the man.

At this point the US authorities can either let Arar continue his flight back to Canada, and be done with it; or send him to Guatanamo as a suspected terrorist; or send him to Syria b ecause thats where he was born.

But because the Canadians wouldn't jail him they decided not to let him continue his trip.

This implies that no-matter what flimsy evidence the Canadians had, the USofA thought different. Yet, whatever the US thought, they couldn't justify handing him over to the marines, wich implies the USofA had some pretty flimsy reasons for suspicion themselves.

So if everything is so flimsy, Why Syria? Perhaps he shit-ass lippy attitute and the powers that be said 'fuck you too, we will send you where-ever we want" and did - just because Arar was an asshole.

Actually, now that I think about it, that seems very plausable.

in

[mikedavid00]

It wasn't Arars fault to be considered a terrorist suspect.

Sure it was.

[mikedavid00]

No, Arar should have remembered the man the RCMP and CSIS were watching signed his rental lease. His own false answers during interrogation, made him appear untrustworthy.

Ah yes.

Peter thinks to himself: 'I didn't know that. Has the media and hype machines been lying to me all this time?'

Anyone who thinks Arar was just blindly deported to Syria with no reason at all is lying. He even co-operated with Syrian officials when he was there. His torture claim is just that: a claim. A claim that got him out of jail. He was being detained to his self admitted ties with the Islamic Brotherhood. Of course, that CTV transcript is buried far beneath the internet.

[Guest American Woman]

Americanwoman: Most certainly. The USofA can refuse entry to Clowns if they so desire. They are a soveriegn state and can do as they wish. They certainly do not seek my or anyone elses permission, nor do they need to. They felt they should ship Arar off and they shipped Arar off. I have no issue with American soveriegnty over who comes or goes within thier own borders.

I appreciate your clarification that you think we have a right to decide who enters our country and who doesn't, but in spite of your beliefs, there are those who apparently think otherwise. It's good to know some people feel that way. The Canadian government seems to think they have a right to tell the U.S. they should allow Arar entry, though. So do some Canadian media outlets, as well as some Canadians on this board. So that's what I was responding to.

I do have an issue with the US claim of blamelessness. It wasn't Arar's fault to be shipped off to Syria. It wasn't Arars fault to be considered a terrorist suspect. It was Arar's fault that he didn't realize that his Syrian birth would be reason for suspicion and eventual torture as a result of the actions and beleifs of others. He should know better...and so should I.

It wasn't his Syrian birth that made Arar a suspect. There are many people of Syrian birth, Iraqi birth, etc., not only passing through the U.S. without being deported, but living here in the States. They are not all terrorist suspects based on the nation of their birth by any means. To say Arar was deported because of his Syrian birth is totally and completely false.

[Guest American Woman]

I can see why they eventually chose to deport him after the Canadian authorities finally informed them that they had only the flimsiest of reasons to suspect Arar. So flimsy, in fact, that even under Canada's new anti-terrorism laws, they would still be unable to incarcerate the man.

Where are you getting your information from? I haven't read anything that said the RCMP told the U.S. at the time Arar was still being held in the U.S. that they had "only the flimsiest of reasons to suspect Arar." All I've read is that Canada refused the U.S.'s terms.

It took an enormous amount of testimony on Canada's part to investigate this whole situation and clear Arar's name. It took a long time for the RCMP to declare that Arar was wrongly put on the RCMP's suspect list and that the information putting him there had been passed on to the U.S. If you have a source saying the U.S. was told by Canada that he was only on the list based on the flimsiest of information before he was deported, I'd appreciate a link to that source.

[bush_cheney2004]

So if everything is so flimsy, Why Syria? Perhaps he shit-ass lippy attitute and the powers that be said 'fuck you too, we will send you where-ever we want" and did - just because Arar was an asshole.

No, the Americans did not send him anywhere, especially 'Gitmo. He was deported to his nation of birth and citizenship, just like thousands of other undesireable gate crashers. My own opinion is that Canada was jolly well in on the whole affair, and did damn little even after he was "jailed" in Syria.

Syria was the right answer for lots of reasons, including Canada. Prolly not worth $12.5 million though.

[Peter F]

No, the Americans did not send him anywhere, especially 'Gitmo. He was deported to his nation of birth and citizenship, just like thousands of other undesireable gate crashers. My own opinion is that Canada was jolly well in on the whole affair, and did damn little even after he was "jailed" in Syria.

Syria was the right answer for lots of reasons, including Canada. Prolly not worth $12.5 million though.

Since I have a complete lack of facts to support my contention that the USofA is not blameless, I will have to fold on this one.

[jbg]

Syria was the right answer for lots of reasons, including Canada. Prolly not worth $12.5 million though.

My pet theory is that CSIS, Mossad and/or the US CIA may be watching the outflow of that $12.5 million, since that is a lot to spend on a steak dinner out. What do you think?¹

¹I did hear that his wife wanted him, after the settlement, to take her "someplace expensive". He took her to the Esso station.

Edited October 31, 2007 by jbg