The Polls are Closed

[Higgly]

Honesty, intelligence and looking beyond tax hikes to find innovative solutions, on the other hand, are obviously not required.

Oh I don't know. When McGuinty delivered the budget, he honestly told Ontarians that he had balanced the budget. Tory on the other hand was not so honest when he promised funding for faith-based schools, was he? I'm listening to Tory's speech right now and the guy is talking about accountability I think that accountability will come for John Tory in a way he wasn't counting on.

Me, I'm looking forward to that February holiday

Edited October 11, 2007 by Higgly

[Higgly]

---------- MMP - VOTE *NO* ----------- ---------- MMP - VOTE *NO* -----------

MMP = ISLAMIC/SIKH RELIGIOUS GROUPS IN OUR PARLIMENTARY SYSTEM

---------- MMP - VOTE *NO* ----------- ---------- MMP - VOTE *NO* -----------

Islamophobia much?

[jbg]

I'm very happy with the way this has turned out.

The PC only won the most whitest of the riding demographics.

It's litterally that simple.

Given my rather strong views on segregated schools (read on empty stomache) (link) so am I.

[jbg]

Deleted as tasteless.

Edited October 11, 2007 by jbg

[Michael Hardner]

Everybody lost.

[jbg]

Islamophobia much?

One question, Higgly. Why can't Muslims and Sikhs meld into Canada rather than setting themselves apart?

[Michael Hardner]

The oddest thing to figure out is why the MMP vote was higher than the provincial vote, and yet it went resoundingly against MMP.

It's almost like non-voters came out to kill the thing. I'm hoping that some research bears this out, as it would mean that there is some hope that people out there care about something.

Instead of a citizen's assembly, a.k.a. a focus group, let's have a big tent discussion about the kind of democracy we want.

Some questions:

Is declining voter turnout necessarily a bad thing ? If people are uninformed and uninterested, shouldn't they stay away from this process ?

How can we expect increased voter turnout without making the system more accountable and easier for the general public to understand ?

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Using Healthcare as an example, I started a project to try to find some metrics that would give me clear information on how our healthcare system was performing.

I couldn't find any.

There are NO regularly produced simple metrics giving raw data on how our healthcare services perform. You can get periodic reports that will give you snapshots of, say, waiting lists but nothing ongoing. Isn't that shocking ? Truue - healthcare is just one aspect of our government, but one of the most important so you'd think there would be something.

I think that future generations will look back on us and ask us why we didn't pay attention to such things.

[capricorn]

Is declining voter turnout necessarily a bad thing ? If people are uninformed and uninterested, shouldn't they stay away from this process ?

How can we expect increased voter turnout without making the system more accountable and easier for the general public to understand ?

Re voter turnout, I think the wider question is why are people staying away from the process? I saw a 50% turnout for tonight's election. I don't think it ever has been this low and that is truly a shame.

I don't see the correlation between voter turnout and accountability. Yet, I can see a link between voter turnout and the basic (mis) understanding of the process in terms of outcome as a result of participation.

I am also curious why the MMP vote was larger than the provincial vote. Maybe it's an indication that referendums on important issues should be held separately from the traditional provincial election.

[jbg]

Re voter turnout, I think the wider question is why are people staying away from the process? I saw a 50% turnout for tonight's election. I don't think it ever has been this low and that is truly a shame.

50% is high for a US off-presidential year gubernatorial election, the closest equivalent to the Ontario election.

[Higgly]

One question, Higgly. Why can't Muslims and Sikhs meld into Canada rather than setting themselves apart?

I will answer the question with a question. Why are you so focussed on Moslems? You want to see somebody setting themselves apart? Go up to Markham. You will find entire shopping malls - and I am talking BIG shopping malls - where all the signs are in Chinese and everybody is speaking Chinese. Head down to Little India. You will find entire sections of the City (Dundas Street East, for example) where all the shops have signs in Hindi, Bengali, what have you. It's easier to buy a Sari there than a dress. Next we take you to Little Korea (Bloor Street West). Signs in Korean are everywhere. I grew up in a city where there was a very large Italian population. It was very common to find people who could not speak a word of English. They lived and worked entirely in the Italian community. You would go up to a bricklayer and ask him a question and he would just point to his boss indicating "go talk to him, because I haven't a clue what you're saying". That has slowly changed because sooner or later, they all blend in. One of the most common worries of new immigrants to Canada is when their children start to discard the traditional ways and start doing radical things - like going out on unescorted dates . Sooner or later, they all meld in, it just takes time and in Canada it is generally recognized that it is better to be patient and tolerant because you cannot force these things.

This is just the way it is in Canada.

[Higgly]

Instead of a citizen's assembly, a.k.a. a focus group, let's have a big tent discussion about the kind of democracy we want.

That is a great idea. Why not start one here? I wsa troubled by the MMP poll because it just seemed to come out of nowhere. There didn't seem to be a lot of public debate. You just woke up one morning and there it was on the ballot. Too much too fast.

[jbg]

That has slowly changed because sooner or later, they all blend in. One of the most common worries of new immigrants to Canada is when their children start to discard the traditional ways and start doing radical things - like going out on unescorted dates . Sooner or later, they all meld in, it just takes time and in Canada it is generally recognized that it is better to be patient and tolerant because you cannot force these things.

This is just the way it is in Canada.

You lips to G-d's ears. I hope that happens in both our countries. I am skeptical.

[Higgly]

You lips to G-d's ears. I hope that happens in both our countries. I am skeptical.

This might rankle, but it one of the reasons I was so against faith-based schools. Put them all in the same classroom flirting with ech other and things start to change fast

[Topaz]

The election turn out the way I thought it would with the Libs as government and the NDP gaining and the Tories getting ready to replace Tory!

[M.Dancer]

Using Healthcare as an example, I started a project to try to find some metrics that would give me clear information on how our healthcare system was performing.

Realistically, there's no interest.

[CLRV]

I have to say I'm happier with this morning's election headlines than I ever felt I would be. Not that I'm a Liberal supporter by any stretch, but it was quite a pleasure to see the Cons and their American-esque leader go down in flames yet again, relegated to second place for another four years to gnash their teeth and spew hypocrisy about "broken promises". Sucks to be them.

Of course, the sour grapes gang in the mainstream media are falling all over themselves trying to explain it away on one issue: the religious schools thing. If only John Tory hadn't gone there, they say, the rest of his entire platform of conservative talking points lifted directly from south of the border (where they have been proven unquestionable failures all), it would have been handshakes and buns all around for the Conservative party this morning.

Fat chance. Ontarians walked away in droves; if not to the Liberals then to the NDP and Green (proving once again that even with a thrice-divided left, the newly "united right" hasn't got a prayer among thinking, decent Canadians. The fact is that in Canada, the left is the huge majority. Deal with it.

More proof? We also threw out that ridiculous Americanization of our electoral process euphemistically called MMP even more vigorously. Phew. What a trap for the unwary that was. Just like re-arranging the ridings a few years back; another attempt to rearrange the goalposts at halftime; a sad Conservative grasp at a chance for power in a country where most people won't vote for them.

I hope Mr. Harper, who recently challenged the Opposition to "bring it on" in a no-confidence vote, is taking notes. Reading the press today, I doubt he is as cocky about the guaranteed success of his "stay-the-course/support-the-troops" crapola as he was yesterday.

God Bless Ontario and Canada.

[M.Dancer]

Cons and their American-esque leader .......

More proof? We also threw out that ridiculous Americanization of our electoral process euphemistically called MMP even more vigorously.

God Bless Ontario and Canada.

Wha? What makes Tory Americanesque? No american That I can think of could be that inept and still lead a major party.....he made Kerry look positively Macheivellian

PR is american?

[Higgly]

I was happy to see the failure of a campaign that relied heavily on attack ads and attack tactics. Why can't tese guys just put their agenda on the table? I hate attack ads and so do a lot of other people. I mean it's fine to say McGuinty broke his promise, but enough of the broken record!

[M.Dancer]

I was happy to see the failure of a campaign that relied heavily on attack ads and attack tactics. Why can't tese guys just put their agenda on the table? I hate attack ads and so do a lot of other people. I mean it's fine to say McGuinty broke his promise, but enough of the broken record!

The NDP's TV ads were all attack ads too....

[Higgly]

The NDP's TV ads were all attack ads too....

Yes you are right. Didn't work too well for them either. I thought it was rather un-NDP-ish

[mikedavid00]

You will find entire shopping malls - and I am talking BIG shopping malls - where all the signs are in Chinese and everybody is speaking Chinese. Head down to Little India. You will find entire sections of the City (Dundas Street East, for example) where all the shops have signs in Hindi, Bengali, what have you. It's easier to buy a Sari there than a dress. Next we take you to Little Korea (Bloor Street West). Signs in Korean are everywhere. I grew up in a city where there was a very large Italian population. It was very common to find people who could not speak a word of English. They lived and worked entirely in the Italian community.

Italians were Christians who came here with money helped build Canada. Back then you could not buy a house with no money down and no proof of income.

This is cannot be said for the modern immigrant who are the benefactor of our social programs.

[CLRV]

And the organized crime was just a pleasant side effect.

[guyser]

relegated to second place for another four years to gnash their teeth and spew hypocrisy about "broken promises". Sucks to be them.

It is hypocritical to talk about broken promises? All 180 of them, or something like that?

[guyser]

Italians were Christians who came here with money helped build Canada. Back then you could not buy a house with no money down and no proof of income.

This is cannot be said for the modern immigrant who are the benefactor of our social programs.

Geebus dude , you couldnt be more wrong if you said the sun rises in the west.

Italians were mainly poor who came here. We are talking mere dollars in the pocket poor. No income no money and only the previous emigres to ask for support until a job materialized.

You cant buy a house now , nor at any time in history without a DP and proof of income of statement thereof.

[Higgly]

Italians were Christians who came here with money helped build Canada. Back then you could not buy a house with no money down and no proof of income.

This is cannot be said for the modern immigrant who are the benefactor of our social programs.

You're joking right? Most of them came here on the tail of the Second World War and were penniless. You want to know what Italy was like after the Second World War? Watch Di Sica's "The Bicycle Thieves". You'll cry. These people were economic refugees, but we needed them and their skills to build post-war Canada, just like we need the people who are coming now. The most important thing about the Italian immigrants was not that they were Christians (althoughin those days that probably counted for more than it should), but that they knew how to lay bricks!