cybercoma

You're hilarious to be referring to anyone as an idiot, when you won't even acknowledge the points that have been made. Total government control means these people are forced to offer their services at the price the government feels it should pay them. Doctors and nurses are leaving because they can make more money in the United States, thereby being paid what they're worth. I know this first hand. Mercernary...absolutely hilarious.

I'm just wondering if this idea has ever been tossed around? It's one thing to debate endlessly about politics, but how about getting to know one another on a different level? A lot of the people around here seem cool, regardless of what I think of their political opinions. It'd be nice to have something to talk about besides politics with them. If this has already been addressed and I missed the post, please disregard.

The government is there to serve and protect the public. I think that I should quote Ontario Conservative Premier Pliney Whitney who said: You have changed the discussion of Hydro to health care.... A standard technique of both the Conservatives and Liberals. I take this as your conceding to defeat in the argument about publicly owned electricity. From your post, I gather you would rather pay much more to private companies than pay less to a government run electricity system. However, this privatization is bankrupting many other Ontario businesses... Is that part of your Conservative plan. I don't have any sort of plan. I would agree with the idea that paying $0.10/kwh to a private company making a profit is better than paying $0.02/kwh to a government run venture that loses money (which we'll have to pay back eventually anyway, plus interest). The last thing I want is the government getting involved in things that should be private business. The government is wasteful with our money (no way in hell a janitor would make $18/hr in a private hospital), so why would you want to give them more of it and put them in charge of more? You make it sound like private business is a bad thing; meanwhile, it's what drives our economy. Why not have government intervention on the price of food and water? Those are absolutely necessary or you die, but private businesses continue to operate in the farming and grocery industry.

Eureka seems to be asserting that healthcare is a right or an entitlement of which every human is deserving. In a free society, this cannot possibly be true. The only rights that can be granted equally to all are negative rights, the right to live, to not be harmed etc. These are called "negative rights" because they do not award anything and the only thing required of others is inaction. I need take no action to respect the right of another to live. That right only requires that I not kill him. Healthcare is a positive right. If a person is to have healthcare, and cannot provide it himself, then someone else must provide it for him. If that person does not want to, then for everybody to have healthcare as Eureka suggests, he must be forced. This means that for this person who is forced to pay for the healthcare of others, neither his labour nor the fruits of it are his own. What he has will be appropriated to pay for the healthcare of those who cannot provide it themselves. A person whose labour is appropriated against their will is a slave. The argument that healthcare is a "right" is an argument for tyranny. To grant healthcare as a right for all is to make some in our society privileged (the net recipients) and to enslave others (the net beneficiaries). This is completely incompatible with all traditional meanings of liberty and freedom - the notion of individual independence, the right to pursue ones own goals unhindered by others, the right to life and property, the right to live free from violence, and so forth. If Eureka believes that universal healthcare can truly be provided by the state - which I reject on practical grounds - it will be a slave state that provides it. This is the best post in the healthcare discussion that I've read to date. You couldn't have been more to the point. You need to look no further than to the doctors leaving for work in the United States to see that they are enslaved by our government. This doctor shortage is hurting everyone, especially down here near the border.

I guess you're just going to go on with your rhetoric totally disregarding the fact that public healthcare and public health insurance will still exist. People will still have equal access to healthcare and private insurance (that most people get from their employers) will still cover costs. It's plainly obvious that you want to continue to believe the Conservatives are going to make healthcare only accessible to the richest echelon of society, which is patently absurd to say the least. If you're happy paying the most money for some of the crappiest service among OECD nations, more power to you I guess.

I notice from this that you have half a brain. In the United States, corporate tax is higher than in Canada, but personal tax is much higher in Canada than the USA. Your argument seems to indicate that you think the government should favour corporations over constituents. I think that the government should be "for the people". Maybe Cuba is a better country for you.

Who needs a military to enforce our interests in the world, when we can just sit back whining and complaining about things going on, but not being able to lift a finger to do anything about it? Pretty tough for us to threaten dictatorships and such if we have no military power to do anything about it. "Protection against what?" Protecting our neighbours and people around the world from oppression. We like to pretend we're some huge peacekeeping nation, meanwhile we couldn't topple a thridworld country if we tried. Leaving the United States and its citizens responsible for our protection is just stupid and unfair to them. Especially if we're going to spit in their face when they try to enforce peacekeeping missions around the world.

Cybercoma... We owned the lemonade stand. We should be able to drink the lemonade at the the price it cost to make it. Since you're into analogies, lets try this one. You built a lemonade stand (with the lemonade making equipment) for $100. It cost 5 cents to make a cup of lemonade. If you sold it to the neighbour for $30 and he would sell you the lemonade for 50 cents a cup, would you go for this. Basically, that's what our last Tory provincial government did. Do you know why they "fire sold" our facilities. To fix their books so the public wouldn't see the HUGE deficit they created by their insane tax reduction.... Your assertion that we actually owned the labour in the hospitals is ridiculous at best. Doctors and nurses aren't property to be owned and they should be paid what the fair market value for their work is. What incentive do I have to be a doctor in Canada, when I can go to the US and get paid a fair wage for my skills and services? We're talking about total government control over people's lives here. I'm certain it looked very good on paper in the Soviet Republic too.

You make this sound like a bad thing.

By your definition then, Universal Health Care has already been destroyed since the public system (that will still be up and running after the conservatives get their way) is ALREADY referring patients to private care in the United States. If you lived in Southwestern Ontario, BC or parts of Quebec you'd know this, either that or you're turning a blind eye to it. I can't possibly understand how people can defend our national healthcare system. We are tied for number one in spending on healthcare among OECD nations, but we're 16th in doctors per capita, 15th for access to advanced medical technology, 14th in percentage of total life expectancy disability free, 16th in infant mortality (one of the most important statistics in determining quality of life in a nation), 8th in mortality amenable to healthcare, 9th in potential years of life lost due to disease, and 6th in incidents of breast cancer mortality. It is glaringly obvious that are very restrictive government monopoly on healthcare and insurance does NOT create a better system. It does not make us vastly superior to other nations in terms of health, regardless of what you would like to think. To quote directly from the report: As you can see it's a system that gives you options. It does not destroy Universal Access to care, instead it improves access to health-care and puts control in the hands of people that can be held responsible and are closer to the communities that require care. What does Ottawa know about the health care needs of people in BC? Who does someone in BC hold accountable for poor service? It's supposed to be the provinces who run the hospitals, but under the current system the federal government and the provinces currently blame each other for the problems refusing to take responsiblity. Under the new system it will be clear who is responsible, either the province or the private provider who is licensed by the government. To not allow people access to private care is asinine at best. Nations like Sweden, Japan, France and Australia all have a combined health-care system which clearly beat the heck out of ours. Currently, Canadians who are willing to pay are being sent to the United States to get quicker services for vital services that they would otherwise have to wait for. A system exactly like the United States' system is NOT what is being proposed. Instead they're proposing giving the provinces more control over health-care (as it should have been from day one) since they are closer to the communities they will be serving and giving canadians the option of access to advanced technology and better service. All of which will still be paid for by a universal health care plan and/or a supplementary medical insurance plan (which is the case now through your employer's benefits package). So, to even insinuate that our current system will be scrapped is entirely incorrect. It's not even implied in the report. All that is implied is giving people a choice in their health care, which is happening now with people going to the states. Instead of our money being lost to another country, it would be kept at home, improving our nation instead of theirs.

err, I"ve got an idea for you. Open up a lemonade stand this summer. I want you to sell your lemonade below cost though, because when it's hot, people are thirsty and they really need a drink. Nevermind the actual value of the product you're selling. Perhaps food companies, farms, etc. should all operate on nonprofit systems because food is necessary for survival, much more so than certain medical services that aren't. Just a couple suggestions that your posts imply you'd agree with.

Just making sure that everytime you misrepresent that report, we're here to correct you.

Come on now. You don't really think a politician will actually go to jail, do you? If they couldn't convict Air India guys, there ain't a chance in hell Chretien is getting one.

SO many points to comment on, I'll probably miss half of them. It should be noted that consumers are the ones who should drive the economy. History has proven that anytime the government gets its grubby hands into the pot, something collapses. Right now doctors and medical companies are forced to work for what the government dictates their value is, not what a fair market price is for their services. People on the left want everything to be fair for people in Canada, but they don't want to accept the fact that forcing doctors and clinics to operate at what the government decides is acceptable is completely unfair for them economically. Regardless, the whole point is moot considering we're not suggesting totally dismantling public health care. What is being suggested is to ALLOW those doctors whom choose so to open their own private clinics and charge what they see fit. If you think their prices are unfair, then don't give them your money. That's the way a free society works. Eventually those doctors will either close because everyone is finding cheaper service elsewhere, or they'll be forced to lower their prices. What hasn't been even acknowledged by the otherside in this discussion is our current public insurance (OHIP, etc....). This would not be something that is simply thrown away. For emphasis: THERE WILL STILL BE A PUBLIC HEALTHCARE SYSTEM under the current proposal. You would still have public insurance to use EVEN IN PRIVATE FACILITIES. To suggest that private clinics and services be outlawed is to propose an oppresive dictatorial control over people's lives. We are already going to private hospitals and clinics. I don't know where in Canada those opposed to the two-tier system live, but I live in Windsor, Ontario. To say I know first hand the problems and differences with our system and the American system would be an understatement. Keeping in mind that we are NOT proposing a system even remotely similar to the United States, people are already being referred into the private system of healthcare by our very own government ruled public system. Patients are directed daily to the United States to bypass waiting lists over here. There are some very seriously ill people that have to wait for services in Ontario when they just don't have that option. Here's the kicker...OHIP still covers you for what they cover, in the United States. You would still have universal access to necessary services (even though Dalton McGuinty has decided the most commonly used services should no longer be covered, but that's a whole other ball of wax). This is about freedom of choice though. For those who can afford seeing a private specialist that is allowed to charge what he's worth for his services, they can do so and get the help they need immediatly. This is no different than what is going on in Southwestern Ontario, or any other region close to the border I imagine. All of this is happening NOW and will continue to happen until we do something to KEEP THOSE DOLLARS IN OUR COUNTRY. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, this goes without saying; however, be aware that there already is a two-tier system which acts as a pipeline funneling our dollar to the United States. To suggest that we should not allow doctors and medical suppliers to make what they're worth in a fair market here in Canada is a foot in the grave of fascism. The last thing I want is total government control over anything. We all know how inefficient and irresponsible bureaucrats and politicians are.

Thanks for quoting me, so I don't have to.

I might ask Conservative1 how come these services are no longer covered in Ontario. While our current Dalton McGuilty Liberals were actually the ones to axe chiropractic care from socially subsidized care, I think this is in response to the previous Mike Harris Tory government's slashing of tax revenues by $14 Billion, leaving a huge deficit. There isn't enough money in the Provincial coffers to pay for these services. I think you'll have a hard time defending the Harris Tories actions as far as health care goes, since Mike Harris and his pal Preston Manning have just release a publication recommending the dissolution of universal health care in Canada. I think this statement is confirmation of the real Tory objectives. It also shows the spirit and goal of the tax cuts he implemented while in power. By the way, don't for a moment get the impression that I have any respect for the McGuilty Liberals. They knew the level of the Ontario deficit before they got into power, and every one of their election promises was a lie.... They actually have similar objectives to the Tories, but try to not seem quite as mean spirited as the Tories are. You'll note that they didn't repeal any of the Tory tax cuts to the wealthier to ensure that Ontario citizens would still have health care, decent schools, etc.... They are really Tories who went to "used car salesman school". In Ontario, it seems that the only part that actually cares about citizens over corporations is the NDP party. Have you actually read the Manning/Harris Report? Nowhere does it suggest that we should get rid of universal health care. Good luck finding the quote in there that references that, to prove me wrong of course. What they did recommend was giving canadians the FREE CHOICE between public and private care. A combined system like some of the best in the world (see: Japan and Sweden for example) is what they suggest to improve our miserable system. Take a look at the stats revealed in there. It's pretty pathetic that we're the #2 spender on healthcare, yet we're nowhere near the top as far as quality or access to services goes. If you think keeping the public system and adding the option of allowing private clinics is going to make matters worse, than I don't know what to say to you. It seems pretty obvious that it will only improve things.

See here. Well, I guess I'm a moron. lol Thanks for the link!

No it didn't....it called for allowing a 'two track' system, where by a efficient and effective balance could be achieved between private and public sectors and where the most efficient system could prevail. (in both measures of customer care, and cost effectiveness of the program) It does not dictate a system akin to that of the U.S. rather closer to the systems in Japan or possibly Sweeden. http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/pdf/CSF-Eng.pdf Close, but it didn't mention anything about either system PREVAILING over the other. The report did state that your public insurance would still cover what it covers and that would also pertain to private institutions. Those who have the money could then supplement that insurance, or pay for things outside the typical insured practices. The report calls for Canadians to have the freedom to decide for themselves where they want to get their healthcare from. It also says that most times you're going to enter into the system through public doctors, clinics and hospitals before you're referred to private facilities if that's what you choose. This misconception about public healthcare and public health insurance being eliminated really gets under my skin, as I know it does for you. Really all Mike Harris and Preston Manning called for was the simple CHOICE to be there for Canadians, instead of this system now where the Canada Health Act (1984 -- over 20 years old) makes it illegal to have a choice. People in Windsor, ON and the surrounding area are already being advertised to, through the Windsor Star, by medical facilities in Michigan. Thousands of people are already being referred to and are going to private clinics in the United States for quicker and better quality healthcare. The Canadian government doesn't want to allow you that choice though. Preston Manning and Mike Harris' plan would give all of us greater freedom to choose what's best for us, instead of leaving it in the hands of bureaucrats who've made a career out of wasting our money.

Sounds like everything I'm opposed to. If I wanted the government controlling more of my life, I'd move to a country that has a fascist government. Wake me up when someone decides to start a Libertarian Party.

Honestly, how can anyone take Jack Layton seriously after he and his wife leeched off the system living in geared to income housing? This whole Peter Pan idea the NDP has, should they ever get elected, will lead to the Peter Principle. Now, support the Liberals? Why the hell would they choose to back up a party that is being turned inside out with the realization of these scandals? Seems like political suicide to me, then again...Canadians are apathetic and if history is any indication, we'll continue to reward those who steal from us.

It might be interesting to note that Ontario corporations pay about 4% lower taxes than any American state bordering it..... How many percentage points does Cybercoma think we should be below the USA so that we won't be scared companies will leave Ontario?? Should we all offer to work for minimum wage so that these companies will stay... or maybe we can decrease minimum wage even further so that we can compete with Indonesia for sweat-shop jobs. I'd like to see proof of this assertion that Ontario corporations are paying less taxes, as a percentage of income, than their American counterparts.

All I'm saying is he debunked your "known desires" by explaining the CPC's position. Canada will not implode if the CPC is elected into office, contrary to what propaganda tells you. They're NOT going to cutoff public healthcare in one swoop, leaving millions of people dying in the streets...among all the other ridiculous nonsense people keep citing. I'm not necessarily conservative, but it's only fair to look at them objectively.

I wish I had something more intelligent to say than, "Jack Layton is an idiot," but alas...I'm a waste of bandwidth.

He addressed each one of your points with a very clear response. How this shows he has no argument for anything is beyond me. Nor were they direct insults. Your response on the otherhand is the verbose equivalent of saying, "you're worthless." A verbal tapout, if I've ever seen one.

Hey! WHAT ABOUT JACK LAYTON!? :angry: ...I kid, I kid.