Army Guy

Cappy: I have the impression that you have very little idea of how our goverment purchases anything including DND. Perhaps you should go to the PWSG goverment web site...All DND gives them is a fact sheet with specifacations...it does not list makes or models...it is PWSG that picks serveral examples of equipment that best meets those specs...DND tests them makes a recommendation and our goverment masters make the final decission on what equipment is purchased...And like Argus said it normally has a very polictical flavour to it... Unless you are up north then having STOL capabilities is very important...these new aircraft are to replace the Twin Otter. And take on some of the roles that our SAR Hercs now have....

Black dog: Flea bag: One of the motivating factors to get these sucide bombers to blow themselfs -up is serveral muslim countries have donated money to the PLO and other causes in the area. Some of this money is donated to the purchase of the bombers home or to pay the rent of the apt as long as the families of the bombers lives there.... This had become a major problem, and still is....hence the IDF implementing the dozing of homes to elemenate that reason from becoming a motivating factor. Is it a form of group punishment "yes"it is but what chioce do they have...what other course of action is left to them... Under normal circumstances these methods are standard practice, they are to control the population,restrict movement in areas of combat operations, to prevent looting, to restrict the movement of the enemy,to make it easier to secure the area. Rarely does the goverment actually pin piont someone out for arrest. arrests are normally done by intel (Goverment or Military)or military police and ground troops. During the FLQ crises Canada done the same thing with Trudeau enacting the War measures act. giving the Military full control of that area of operations, acting with police they made more arrests than they had jail space....I do agree with you that the military is not very good at police work,But they are not going to send policemen into combat zones. Arrests are just as much as part of war as death is....nobody has got it right yet.... Without trying to sound cold, but the history of War it is always the innocent that pay the most...it is a fact of war, one that cannot be avoided... Again, if those reports are true then those incidents should be investigated...and those found guilty charged... However that being said there is no way i can describe to you what it is like to be in combat or fire your Wpn in anger...Once you enter a combat zone, you are concerned with only one thing keeping you and all your buddies alive,and you do what it takes to do that....Because the Bad guys blend in so well with the civilian population makes this task of not targeting civilians very, very hard...most decissions to pull the trigger are made in Milli seconds...A soldier does not always have the time to decide whether civilian or foe... Again without trying to sound cold but this is War....Urban fighting is very brutal perhaps the closest thing there is to hell.... Yes you are right, attacking military targets are not terrorists acts, your also right when saying if civilians die in that attack they would be considered collateral damage....Car bombs,IED, ETC intended for military targets are not considered terrorist attacks.... Terrorist acts are attacking unarmed inocent civilians, for example a crowded store with no military pers or of military value... to send a message to population... Niether, is Afgan Canada's...Soldiers do not make those decissions on where they go, thier goverments do...I true believe that we are making a difference in Afgan....as for Iraq the jury is still out....i think it will be a long term process....

Black dog: Military incursions into civilian areas...Is the military way of showing of force... destruction of property (such as bulldozing homes and crops),correct me if i'm wrong but the homes that get dozed over are they not the ones of sucide bombers... checkpoints, curfews and arbitrary arrests are examples of collective punishment and are routine in the Occupied Territories...."Check pionts and curfews are not collective punishment but a means of nessicary control of the population and have been used in most conflicts that i know of"...As for the arbitrary arrests i guess that would depend on who you talked to...The IDF has a pretty good intel service and if they are arresting someone it was to be for a reason...remeber Marshall law or it's equilvalent powers of arrest are different and it allows the state or goverment to arrest without warrent or for very little cause. No, but pretty close...even in Canada the goverments powers increase 10 fold... You are right, the onus is on the military on both sides to minimize cilvilian cas at all costs...But there is two sides to every coin the the US militay did warn the civilian pop of it's intentions giving those that wanted to leave the chance to. Fighting in urban areas is very deadly for the attacker...to min cas on the attackers side armies rely on Arty and air delivered muntions more...Thats war... Someone was fighting....who were they if all the insugents melted away.... I'm not going to make any excuses, I've seen war first hand and this is war.....It's full of death...and destruction....thats what happens things and people perish...before you completely make up your mind on what is going on over there atleast research the american view from those that are serving over there or have served there...they'll find that war is a two way street with killing and maiming done by both sides....Right now you see a few bodies and are all pissed off ...rightly so....but not the entire US army is to blame ...or for that matter the entire US....

Eureka: It goes to prove that there is a large foriegn content in the taliban....And I'm not disbuting whether the Taliban is homegrown.... But the fact that it has a large population of muslims from across the globe.... I did not imply that .....you had said .... It was challanged by more than 8 war lords during and after there rise to power...

Black dog: What do you consider collective punishment ? Would you not consider that check pionts,curfews are part of marshall law....And what violence are they using to keep the population in check... My question is how do you run modern military operations against "terrorists or insurgents that continue to use innocent civilains as shields ie use the built-up areas as cover.....This is not the 1 st operation against fallujah...The insurgents know exactly what is going to happen and yet they remain in the confines of the city because of it's added safety, and the PR they get from blaming the damageand deaths on the coalition forces....

Eureka: Thanks for the links? And why is there a difference in Afgan taliban and Pakistan Taliban ? If it was so unchallaged then why did they only control 80 to 90 % of the country?

Black dog: I agree with you, upto the piont of the IDF.... and the coalition forces in Iraq. I don't see the use of terror, to rule, or send a message to others etc. Stalin and Hilter were called many things and i agree they were terrorists, proablably the world most infamous ones. A soldier is governed by the geneva convention,when you step out side of that and deliberately target Non combatants to terrorize them to send a message then i would say you stop being a soldier...and become a terorist... Soldiers are to target other soldiers,military installations, goverment installations,manufacture facilties, other infra structure for instance bridges,TV and radio stations etc...those civilians inside those targets are also targets. The wearing of uniforms does not perclude anyone from being a soldier...That being said i would not want to be a soldier in an uniformed army in combat zone with out one as you would be quickly label a Spy and shot for your efforts... PatM: Hey i'm not talking about cutting off a hand for stealing,or being flogged for whatever..i'm talking about excutions for minor offenses for public entainment or to send a piticular message to the rest of the population.. It is again'st the law in Afgan, Pakistan, India to burn women alive...it is tolerated in some courts or the punishment is laughable...the example i used was for looking and talking to men or boys (not cheating) they were set on fire in public to send a message to others that this loose behavior would not be tolerated...this was a terrorist act... Yes they are two worlds apart, if i murdered someone by setting them on fire then it is a crime ...but if i use that act to send a message to the rest of the women it is using terror to spread the word...and is a terrorist act... A terrorist act. The allieds deliberatly attacked the civilian popualation. Because the germans bombed our civilians first does not make it right.... It is made very clear in the genva convention... I'd call it a very unfortunite, but we do not know the entire story...and we don't know if it was random... Yes it is, and colateral damage is expected,but should not be the norm...in any type of warfare... Are you telling me now that the present goverments in Afgan and Iraq are not legitimate. Resistance to occupation is crap...and when the US and coalition are gone they will be fighting each other...or someone else...most of those fighting are from other muslim countries...who have no vested interest in this fight other than the fact they get to kill infidels ( that includes Canadian soldiers, aid workers,NGO workers, any western person). Eureka: Even the Taliban did not have full control over all of Afgan, The northen allaince for example. For that matter even when the Communist Afgan goverment was in control they did not have full control over the entire country. the war lords are just that... War lords ,they have come to power because they are the the biggest and badest in the area...and they are not all Afganis background as you suggested.....you said "some" stayed as Al Quida but were considered mercs...a Very large portion of both the Taliban and Al Quiada were foreign fighters...I've repeated this dozens of times and have provided you with links to back this info , could you please provide links to back-up your claim.

Black dog: Yes, it would...I pray that it does not as i believe the US has enough on thier plate with Iraq.

Black dog: Grotesque is alittle strong, but OK... i have not once said that i as a canadian soldier that i agreed on what is happening in those countries. Nor do i have a choice on who our goverment chooses as allies...I've been to Afgan and seen with my own eyes some of the terror these Taliban "terrorists" have brought to the people of Afgan and yes it has left a bitter taste in my mouth... Eureka: Read some of those links i gave you and tell me if those are actions of someone whos a soldier....and the answer is no to your second question. they were not terrorist. You lost me here can you explain it again... PatM: No i don't like those people who commit those acts,nor i'm i the guy defending them so i can get an opportunity to slam the US......because i call them terrorists does that make me a bad soldier... I hope you not telling me because they are from a different country, have a different religion that those acts are excussable...makes it all right .... They are crimals but when they use those acts to send a message or to terrorize others it is called terrorism...making them terrorist.....Jugding by what you just said i can join the KKK and still not be a racist....

Black dog: I did read the article, just because it is in written form does not make it true.... below is a few referances... 3M80/Kh-41 MOSKIT [sS-N-22 'Sunburn'] The Moskit is a large supersonic anti-ship missile.[1,2] Designed by the Raduga Design Bureau, development of the Moskit began in the 1970s. The Moskit entered Soviet military service in the 1980s aboard Sovremennyy-class guided missile destroyers and several classes of fast attack boats. An air-launched version of the Moskit was first displayed in 1992, and Raduga also reportedly began designs for a surface-to-air variant. Neither variant had entered production as of April 2002.[3,4] The Moskit's control system is manufactured by NPO Altair.[5] Missile assembly takes place at the Progress plant in Arsenyevo in Primorskiy Kray.[6] The Moskit is powered by a ramjet engine and has an estimated top speed of Mach 2.5. It has a launch weight of 3,950kg and carries a payload of 300kg. The Moskit has a range of 120km (250km air-launched), but tests of the Moskit using a high trajectory showed the possibility of increasing its range to 300km.[3,7,8,] The air-launched version can be carried by Su-27 and Su-33 fighters. There is no known submarine-launched version of the Moskit.[9] Russia's export customers so far include only China, which purchased two Project 956E Sovremennyy-class guided missile destroyers armed with Moskit missiles.[6] China has also recently signed a new contract with Rosoboroneksport to purchase two more destroyers by 2005.[10] There are also reports that China is expected to sign contracts for the air-launched version of the missile.[11] There have also been unconfirmed reports that Iran acquired eight Moskit missiles from Ukraine. Iran has also shown interest in purchasing Project 12421 Molniya missile corvettes armed with the Moskit.[12,13] Moskit Missile Characteristics [7] Length (m) 9.385 Diameter (m) .76 Range (km) 120 (ground-launched), 250 (air-launched) Speed (Mach) 2.5 Launch Weight (kg) 3,950 Warhead (kg) 300 Sources: [1] Steven J. Zaloga, "Missile Markets: Uneven Recovery," Aviation Week & Space Technology, 15 January 2001, pp. 181-183; in Proquest, http://proquest.umi.com. [2] Michael Waller, "Will Gore's slips sink U.S. ships?" Insight on the News, Vol. 16, No. 18, 15 May 2000, pp. 22-24; in Proquest, http://proquest.umi.com. [3] V.P. Kuzin and V.I. Nikolskiy, Voyenno-morskoy flot SSSR 1945-1991 (St. Petersburg: Istoricheskoye morskoye obshchestvo, 1996), p. 332. [4] Eric H. Biass and Roy Braybrook, "Missiles on a cruise," Armada International, June/July 2001; in Proquest, http://proquest.umi.com. [5] Dmitriy Safronov, "'Moskit' stal sovershenno nesekretnym," Kommersant-Daily, 14 April 1998; in East View Russian/NIS Central Newspapers Databases, http://online.eastview.com. [6] Nikolay Novichkov, ITAR-TASS, 16 May 2000; in "First Lot of Russian Moskit Missiles Shipped to China," FBIS Document CEP20000516000142. [7] A.V. Karpenko and S.M.Ganin, "Otechestvennye aviatsionnye takticheskiye rakety," Bastion, 1/2000, pp. 57-58. [8] "SS-N-22 Sunburn," Missile.index Web Site, http://www.index.ne.jp, 1997. [9] Norman Friedman, "India tests new antiship missile," U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings, August 2001. [10] Vladimir Urban, "Destroyers of Discord," Novyye izvestiya, 9 January 2002; in "Shipbuilders Squabble Over New Chinese Destroyer Contract," FBIS Document CEP20020109000348. [11] "Russia Plans To Increase Export Of Moskit Missiles To China," Segodnya, 26 September 1998, p. 2; in Defence & Security, No. 116, 30 September 1998; in East View Military and Security Periodicals Database, http://online.eastview.com. [12] Anatoliy Dokuchayev, "Russia Does Its Own Production," Krasnaya zvezda, 30 October 1999; in "Dokuchayev reviews developments in naval armaments in last 2-3 months," FBIS Document CEP19991102000037. [13] Igor Korotchenko, "Vopreki davleniyu SShA," Nezavisimoye voyennoye obozreniye online edition, http://nvo.ng.ru, No. 3, 1 February 2002. [14] Duncan Lennox, "SS-N-22 'Sunburn' (P-80/3M-80 Zubr)," Jane's Strategic Weapon Systems 36, Jane's Information Group Web Site, http://www.janes.com/, 12 November 2001. {Entered 4/19/02 RG} Again i did read the article, but it is out of date most of NATO have been working on this problem for years....the US Navy have developed a counter to this missle. See below reference ...I can provide you with more if you like... Iran can not hope to pin it's defense of it's entire country on one wpn system, even if it is highly capable... My Webpage

PatM: If it was really this easy to sink an entire American naval battle group...why has it not been done yet....Why did the russians who have thousands of these missles not press the US harder during the cold war....or for that matter today.... These missles have been sold around the globe...Yes they are capable of sinking smaller ships even a aircraft carrier if armed with a nuk....but the defensive wpns available to an entire US Naval battle group...out class most countries...

PatM: A good majority of those war lords that were fighting Russia, support what is happening in Afgan today, and the direction thier country is going...the northern alliance is a good example. You have this impression that the US is the only nation that is combating the taliban forces. They are not, Coalition forces are made up of many european, British, french, German, Canadain units.... There is more happening in Afgan than fighting ...reconstruction efforts are well under way...other nations soldiers have been re building schools, hospitals, mostly out of there own pockets and fund raising activities for a long time now.... the 1 st Canadian Roto helped rebuild the hospital there plus purchased a new Amb...all out of the soldiers pockets and through there own fund raising activites.... But thats not what you want to here...you want to piont the finger at the US and blame them for all your problems ..... And for the record you can call the Taliban anything you want ....i call any group of people that stone a young girl because she showed her face in public a terrorist...i call any group that public excutes people for entertainment terrorists... I call any group of people that regularly sets fire to young girls because they were talking with boys or men Terrorists... Before you stand up for them animals you should atleast know who your defending... But you don't care as long as you can slam the US....

Flea bag: QUOTE No i said most are from other muslim countries. The war with Russia had a very high percentage of foriegn Muslims fighting with the taliban and the other afgan war lords....and they remained after the Taliban took power... this is not true, the Taliban did not come into existence until after the Soviet occupation. I stand corrected...please exchange the word taliban for Afgan Mujahideen fighters...The Taliban did not take come onto the scene until 1994...that being said the rest of my statement still stands true with a high percentage of the Muslims fighters being from other countries other than Afgan. And that they remained well after the War with russia ended. See link below... My Webpage QUOTE Most if not all we talked to were glad the Taliban were gone that they did not live in fear from there secret police.. Flea bag for the most part,you are a well inform person. And your right about the Taliban not making it a secret of thier intentions or methods...But they did make heavy use of Secret police to instill fear into the people. please read a few of the links below... and no i did not make any of it up... My Webpage My Webpage My Webpage

I've read the interview, and the other referances...Not very flattering for the liberals....and a slap in the face for all Canadians... And yet there are liberals on this forum that are defending the statements that were made.... The fact that these statements came from a member of the Canadian Goverment makes me sick to my stomach....The leaders of this nation only concern is votes...not the Nation,not you or me but votes... The leaders of this Nation needs to make decissions based on what is good for the Nation not what will capture the most votes.... the remarks about not condenming the tamil tigers as a terorist group because it might upset delicate negotations is BS...we are either again'st terrorism or we're for it...take a stand thats what true leadership is all about making a decission that is best for Canada whether it is popular or not.... But this seems to be what the majority of Canadians do now walk around with thier pants down around thier knees because they are tired of taking them down every time the liberals decide to give it to us... All any voter can ask is for the elected party to lead the nation...you call taking the middle road leadership.

Gosthacked: Providing the bulk of the troops and equipment for most crisses within the world has it's advantages this is one of them. US troops are not provided immunity instead they are proscuted in the US by the US military court system. they want to prevent thier soldiers for rotting in foreign prisons...Most the other nations do the same only the evac thier guilty persons back to the host nation to be charged there. same thing only the US has refused to sign onto that portion of the agreement. I don't want to sound like an alarmist, But Russia is still very much a threat to Europe and Asia...2 million plus men under arms may not sound much to you but that is ABOUT what is currently serving in the US military... Thier threat is still the main concern of NATO... Yes they are having a few problems with break away states and are trying note i said trying to keep it localized...however i quit confident that if they were to ramp-up and deal with it as the old Soviet union use to those rebellions would be put down in weeks. I said China would not likely attack North America...Taiwan or other interests in asia is a different story....And the US is tied to protecting Taiwan or Japan which will draw in other nations i'm sure, and in that area the US will have it's hands full... As long as tech is growing in leaps and bounds and mankinds need to destroy each other there will always be an arms race...Space has already had wpns placed in it, along with 100's of military sat's..even Canada has military sats in space... The race for spaced based wpns is further ahead than you may think...with most modern countries developing more and more military systems designed for space... As more and more countries depend on space based intelligence systems ,global GPS sats, comunication sats, etc. etc. to regain the advantage on the ground, air, and sea,you must deny these sytems to your enemy ... hence why the race has been ongoing for awhile... I could not agree with you more...but man has been in an arms race since the caveman and i don't see it ending here on anytime soon...

Black dog: No i said most are from other muslim countries. The war with Russia had a very high percentage of foriegn Muslims fighting with the taliban and the other afgan war lords....and they remained after the Taliban took power... During our patrols we talk to everyone we can as part of our PR and recon. Most if not all we talked to were glad the Taliban were gone that they did not live in fear from there secret police...I don't believe they were telling us what we wanted to hear as they told us plenty of what they don't like about our operations and other NATO operations.... I firmly believe that Canadian troops are making a difference there in improving life for the average Afganis....it is because of our repution that the Afgan goverment has asked that Canadian troops to move south to help in some of the more problem areas of the country...

PatM: Check out South and Central America and many countries in the middle east. Many people there are compaining about the outright theft of resources and murder of civilians done by and in the name of the USA. BS...the US pays them well for the resources and has made many countries very well off with these sales. I have not heard of any invasion for the purpose of stealing thier resources.... The resolution that every member nation of the OAS has the right to resist occupation by a foreign invader was pointed right at the USA. Again what invasion...

Black dog: Thats is what i said the Taliban was popular after the war with Russia...but it was thier Brutal riegn of power that has turn most of the population against them... Perhaps you can show me where my info is incorrect. perhaps it is the way i'm trying to express myself.

Eureka: I don't remember bringing up the Al Quaeda. Who openly operated within the Taliban it was the Taliban that threw in all thier marbles to support the Al Quaeda ...And the Taliban are made of mostly Foreign fighters from Pakistan, and the rest of the surrounding countries. including alot of other muslim countries. Then why did you piont it out. thier not resistance but terrorists, fighting a lost cause....I think i'm getting your piont of view you would rather we sit on our hands and do nothing when terrorist threaten our life style or murder there own....Rather than risk anything until they are at our door step.... Well, everyone has an opinion...would you rather we still be debating this in the UN getting no where....which is OK for most Canadians as we are safe here in this country while others die because they failed to meet a dress code, or bear a son...death by stoning, or excuted for public entertainment....

technocrat: Other than peace keeping what else do you think having a military force does for Canada or for that matter any country... What is peace keeping to you? because i think you alittle confused.

eureka: No, the US depends on those resources as a nation...what it needs is to protect it's logistical tail to get those resources into the US....It also needs to protect those nations that provide those resources...IE kuwait...The US pays top dollar for those resouces i don't hear any other nation complaining come pay day... Where do they get the right to use force to take from others? What resources have they taken by use of force...

Gosthacked: Some revamping, try a major overhaul...And no i agree with you no one country should have it's way ...the UN should be a world forum that "ALL" countries have an equal say and vote ...and the veto should be removed...As for the the US being the only country to disagree with the world court BS,russia and China have done so also ...The US has disagree with certain aspects of the worlds court decissions but not the entire system...those areas it has disagreed has been in regards to protecting it's soldiers.... Sure if you think having more than 2 million under arms is no threat...and yes most of the USSR has collasped but they are more than capable of causing a threat in many areas of operation. Chinas military is growing in leaps and bounds faster than any other armed force in the world...Taiwan area is not only a threat to the US but to japan as well not to mention that the people of taiwan do not want to be under Chinas rule... Give me a break, China has no grand scheme to attack the US or Canada with ground forces they will attack by missle but are very aware of Mutual destruction.

Flea bag: Actually, the Afghanis of the 'seven party alliance' (including two with similar names that translated to "Party of Islam"), and others, that fought the Russian occupation were fighting to have an Islamic country, free of foreign intervention. The following two quotes are from the book "Soldiers of God" by Robert Kaplan(sorry don't have the year, my dog shredded the cover and the first and last few pages but I think it came out in 1990) Under the Heading 'The Seven Party Mujahideen Alliance, and under "fundamentalists", reads: That may have been true when they were fighting against Russia, but the Taliban regime was a very brutal one, and has left a bad taste in alot of Afganis mouths. Those that remain and fight are the die hards... those men that i've talked to in Kabul are glad we were there to bring them some peace and some form of law.... Those in southern Afganis i do not know about ,but by the end of this summer Canada will have a full brigade battle group plus a provincail reconstruction team in the southern portion of Afgan. Benefit from what ...the huge poppy trade Afgan has little to offer the US except its next to Russia ...i think in a few years or less you'll find the US will drastically reduce it's numbers in Afgan.

eureka: How is that so, most are not even from Afgan to start with. The taliban formed inside Afgan that actually took over Afgan and it's people...an extreme form of the Muslim religion. The new Afganis goverment was elected by the people of afgan..and NATO is there on request from that goverment to enforce the peace... there may have been a difference in the beginning but there is none now, they don't fight for thier country, they fight because because that is all they know. they are a brutal people made that way over many years of hardship and fighting...

Flea bag: Technocrat was saying that our ideas of what a terrorist is was simlar to racist profiling i was giving him/her some arab examples and some non arab examples. I'm sure there are many laws governing how armed conflict is carried out ,when and by whom...if what you are saying is true then Canada is guilty of aggresion? I've read the convention over many times it is written by lawyers for lawyers. i can ensure you that all of Canada's (ROE) rules of engagement are written according to the conventions they are looked over many times by lawyers and have been judged correct...A member of the taliban is not fighting for a country or religion,but one deemed a terrorist organization....bent on de-stabilizing Afgan... I've said this many times before all i can comment on is what Canada and her soldiers are doing in Afgan....and what ROE's we are following and what we do with prisoners that we have caught....I'm not a legal expert ...i'm relaying this info to you as it has been told to me in the threater of Afgan.... Please don't shoot the the deliver boy...