Army Guy

Sparhawk: I wish it would be that easy, This is taken from Convention IV art 5, as to what rights a POW has then you'll have to read that convention. Art. 5 Where in the territory of a Party to the conflict, the latter is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in the favour of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State. Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy or saboteur, or as a person under definite suspicion of activity hostile to the security of the Occupying Power, such person shall, in those cases where absolute military security so requires, be regarded as having forfeited rights of communication under the present Convention. In each case, such persons shall nevertheless be treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed by the present Convention. They shall also be granted the full rights and privileges of a protected person under the present Convention at the earliest date consistent with the security of the State or Occupying Power, as the case may be.

Eureka: So i guess those dozens of web pages are a waste of band width because you know a few people. Perhaps you can show me your web site that states this, because a few of those sites i seen on google are by the french goverment and i'm sure they'd like to know there sites are fake. I think you miss the piont of why indentifacation is so important on the battle field. and why following the convention is so important. it is set-up to provide all sides good and bad guys plus the civilians with some degree of protection and rights. You have no idea what this war is all about, your comment above proves that. To you it is your chance to piont your finger at the US, nothing more. Bullshit. This Kid was in Terrorist training camps well before the WTC happen, His father had direct links to Bin Ladin, His mother has been quoted as saying they shared many holidays together with Bin Ladin, do you really think he disapproved ? He was part of an organization that used Terror as a wpn against the people of Afgan on a daily basis. And i'm not saying he had part in that either, but odds are he did. "All he did was resist the invaders" Don't make him sound like anything but what he truely is, a terrorist Scumbag. Who if released would gladly return to Afgan to fight again. Again bullshit. the convention was written for all parties involved in warefare including resistance and independant movements these type of groups existed well before the conventions were written. And how does the last sentences apply to Afgan, Are you suggesting that the Taliban are resisting tyranny, if so i loved to here that explaination.

ERR: The whole piont is "he" and other AL Quada members are "not soldiers" and are not considered POW's. That is according to International LAW and the Geneva convention. I've shown you the arts within the convention and yet you still failed to see this. Show me where in the conventions or international law that this kid is entitled to POW status. You tell me what this operation is all about, and where you stand on this issue. Call it what you like i call it a liberation.

Correction: Eureka I do not paint this kid as anything. I have not said what I think of hime. I am dealing only with a legal and moral situation as the moral impinges on the legal. But, I am not wrong in my description of the incident. In fact, that description comes from an interview I heard on CBC Radio with one of the American soldiers who was wounded and beside the one who was killed. QUOTE He has undured considerable trauma through his upbringing and experiences, both in the war-zone and in his imprisonment and torture... Releasing him into society would probably not be the best idea without considerable treatment and appropriate custody arrangments..... The above is your quote was it not, in which you paint him as a poor defenseless little boy who has suffered so much... but you fail to mention how much pain and suffering he has caused others nor have you mentioned what we should do with this terrorist, where do you stand when it comes to sentencing these terrorists. The above quote was not yours but ERRS sorry.

Instead of a blanket statement check for yourself on goggle Type in french resistance armbands and you'll recieve a wealth of info. you might want to try uniforms of the VC or scarfs of the VC My Webpage We are not talking nor suggesting that a full uniform be worn, but care must be taken to make yourself different from the civilians. be it an armband scarf etc etc. The convention is used globally not just in the west, one can not follow the arts that suits them but it must follow all of them. The above is your quote was it not, in which you paint him as a poor defenseless little boy who has suffered so much... but you fail to mention how much pain and suffering he has caused others nor have you mentioned what we should do with this terrorist, where do you stand when it comes to sentencing these terrorists. Being a terroist has everything to do about it, like you said it is one of the reasons we declared war...Terrorists are not afforded any protection by the geneva convention "NONE" regardless of who they are fighting for or what cause they are fighting for. You need to pull up the geneva convention and have a read. Then tell me which art they did not break. You might want to do some reading on the Afgan conflict and tell me what it is the Taliban are fighting for. And why this is so important to the AL Quada terrorist organization. Because Canada is at war with these guy's and Canadian soldiers are going to be getting more active in sending these guys to hell... We are not an invading Army but one that stands for liberation. One that will give thier freedoms back, one that will allow them to chose for themselfs what happens in thier country. They are not under the Afgan goverment or the Afgan army, they do not even come under taliban rule. they may be assisting the Taliban but not under thier command and control.

Does it really belong to another age, even the french resistance during WW II wore an arm band. The convention is quite clear for a good reason. It is to protect the innocent from being targeted. Those not abiding by the convention are not entitled to be protected by it. As for your question about the VC, they did wear black pajama's and a neck scarf and yes they did carry out terrorist activites. Where do you get this info from ...He has admitted freely to being a member of AL Quada, as with most of his family. The AL Quada organization are not a bunch of freedom fighters but a bunch of terrorists. who are using the conflicts in Afgan and IRAQ to thier benfit...to kill infidels, to spread thier beliefs thru terror. Lets just say for a second your right. (which your not ) does his actions sound like those of a misguided little kid you paint him to be, or do thier sound like a highly motivated killer. Someone who knew exactly what he was doing, someone who had the oppertunity to surrender, instead made the decision to fight..to be killed in combat to fullfill his wacked out promise his religion has promised him. Do we really want this scum bag in our schools. Yes, he is being detained by a western country for adult crimes, those crimes are for being a terrorist. He lost any rights he had when he armed himself and used those wpns to kill another human being. What you are saying is he should be forgiven because of his age, what of the other kids who are tried for adult crimes do we forgive them as well. do we allow them a free ticket to do as they will regardless of the crime. His mother his legal gaurdian is she not, no she is not in Gitmo but nither is his brother who is at home now in Canada, parilized from the waist down, wounds recieved in the same fire fight his father died in. What message does this send that a family can be broken up if you beat them,abuse them, but if you send them into battle or they commit terrorist acts it's OK....Give me a break. Nothing is being done to take these kids away from her because it would be a political nightmare and we as canadians would not be able to piont the finger at Uncle Sam. Is she Canadian or not. and should she not be come under our laws and regs... What actions are those, detaining a 13 year old for terrorist activities. Nor is he in Canada for that matter. We as a nation need to take a stand...are we in this war to stop terrorism, or not..no middle ground ,no grey area, just yes or no. Because like it or not "WE", Canadians have troops in Afgan that take part is this war on terrorism, troops that are risking thier lives because our goverment on one hand says Yes we are fighting terrorism, It's OK to kill them on the battlefield, Then NO on the other hand when it comes to having them pay for thier crimes,But it's not thier fault they are fighting...Are we truely this liberal, are we all talking out the side of our mouths... And what good reason would we allow this family to take advantage of us.

If this were the case then everyone would fall into that catagory would they not. AL Qaeda does not have a nation, a flag, a goverment, all that would be needed is for them to declare themselfs "Reg Armed forces". And why have you left out para 2. When dealing with the suggestion of him being a merc you disqualifed him because he did not fulfill all the ART. Some food for thought ..He does have a private gain, and in fact he has been promised this by his organization, through constant religious programming. He has been taught through his religion that if he is to die fighting Infidels all his wishes and desires will be granted by Allah, he will be surrounded by virgins etc etc. Sucide bombers are ensured that there families will be looked after, both financially and with material gains. I do agree with you he should have his day in a court of law. not by the US but by the Afgan goverment. Again i ask the question do you need to qualify on every para within the art or just most of them. Those that oppose this prosecution are blinded by the fact that western countries see him as just a kid...a child...and yet in the muslim world he is considered an adult...Just a few years ago he was an enemy combatant armed with wpns of war, to kill Infidels like you and me. and given the chance would turn anyone of us into hambuger.... Now that our own media has painted him to be a child, it makes it all right, it's his parents fault "whom i might add" still have custidy of this "child" i mean we have broken family units up for far less have we not ...for crimes less than say putting your child in a war zone in harms way...but we are Canadians all we see is the the big bad US is going prosecute him... nothing else. Yes, lets have him attending School with your kids, until something happens at school and this kid does what he has been trained to do and kills again. After all he is a kid and is not responsiable for his actions, he has grown-up with a different set of values and morals some better and some not exceptable in our culture. which brings this question why not allow all those Canadian kids who have committed major crimes free to roam our schools and streets. This would not be an issue in the muslim world he would be charged and sentence carried out according to muslim tradition. There would be no tears, no finger pionting. We as Canadians are being taken advantage of by this family because we allow them to and the fact we can sit in our living rooms and piont at the US and say you bully.

Lets examine the facts here. He is a member of the AL Queda, a known terrorist group that operates inter-national. That fact alone makes him what... According to the geneva convention links provided below he is not a soldier, but a beligerent or terrorist you decide. Yes his parents raised him to fight, yes they brought him to Afgan for the purpose of fighting, But this kid has had plenty of opportunity to escape or surrender but he "and he alone" made that chioce. Each individual, is responsiable for his actions regardless of age he picked up a wpn and used it making him a combatant. Put your crying towel away, this kid is a terrorist who has had plenty of time to give-up or leave the battlefield but chose to stay. Read the links and tell me if you still think he is a prisoner of war. My Webpage Art 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy: (1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces. (2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:[ (a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; ( that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; © that of carrying arms openly; (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. (3) Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power. My Webpage Art. 5 Where in the territory of a Party to the conflict, the latter is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in the favour of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State. Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy or saboteur, or as a person under definite suspicion of activity hostile to the security of the Occupying Power, such person shall, in those cases where absolute military security so requires, be regarded as having forfeited rights of communication under the present Convention. In each case, such persons shall nevertheless be treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed by the present Convention. They shall also be granted the full rights and privileges of a protected person under the present Convention at the earliest date consistent with the security of the State or Occupying Power, as the case may be. My Webpage Art 47. Mercenaries 1. A mercenary shall not have the right to be a combatant or a prisoner of war. 2. A mercenary is any person who: (a) is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict; ( does, in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities; © is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party; (d) is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict; (e) is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and (f) has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.

Personally, i'd like him have his day in court as well, one in Afgan, to be tried by those people he helped terrorize. As with the many many others caught up in this War on terror. And i'm talking about those caught in Afgan. I also believe that the US has made a huge mistake in keeping these guys as long as they have, they should have been released after thier interrogation then turned over to the interm gov't for trail and sentencing or interment. I also believe that regardless of the outcome of these proceedings they will be used again'st the US...No let the AFGAN or IRAQI interm gov't punish them according to muslim law....

When are you guys going to pull your heads out of the sand, and put away your crying towels. This kid is a terrorist, a killer, who would have killed a Canadian soldier just as fast as a US soldier. He lives only to serve his religion and dreams of dying in combat with infidels such as YOU and ME. But we has Canadians have taken in these scum bags and allow them to walk our streets, pay there medical bills, offer them financial support, and allow them to spread thier hate through our media. lets just make it clear that he was not Taliban but Al Qaeda that makes him a terrorist. nothing more, check the geneva conventions and tell me what rights a terrorist are accorded. HALF truths. A military commission is a court, that has a panel of judges not one but serveral,with all having to be in agreement before a sentence is passed there is a separate prosecutor team just as there is a defense team It is true the member is not entitled to be present at all times or the defense entitled to know before hand the evidence again'st him. What about the rights of those beheaded on TV. were they afforded any trail. Were not talking about a criminal who's guilt is in question. He freely admits killing a US soldier, he also freely admits fighting for AL Qaeda. What else do you need... Perhaps then we should strip him of his citizenship and ship him and his family to Afgan to face trail there. as we do with other criminals who commit crimes around the globe. Correct me if i'm wrong has Canada not proscuted kids under 16 for adult crimes. What difference does it make how he got there....are you suggesting that he was forced to fight...then why did he not surrender after all those that where with him had been killed...he chose to fight he wanted to be killed in battle as his religion expects him to do. Stop painting this terrorist as a scared young little boy, when his culture accepts him as a man as young as 10 years old. he has been trained to kill, he knows more about combat than most soldiers do, he knew exactly what he was doing and he knew the outcome. he did so on his own free will. This is a bleeding heart statement, that only those who refuse to see both sides of the story would use. These poor misguided souls you spend your time making excuses for use terror as a weopon to control not just IFOR forces in Afgan but the general population as a whole. they excute men,women and children in ways that a harden criminal puke. they kill when they want, who they want ...for what to preserve there rights to treat thier people any way they want. I've patroled the streets of Kabul, seen some of thier terror, and have heard plenty of stories from the Afgan people first hand, like a 10 year old girl who had her vigina sown shut because she had commited the terriable crime of holding a boys hand in public...The old man that told me that story was beaten by terrorist so hard that they had broken bones around his face, they had pulled his arm out of the socket. this man was over 60 years old... So you continue to believe that the terrorists are being mistreated, that we have no right helping those Afgan people to win thier freedom. perhaps you would see things different when you had to look at a young Afgan girl in the eyes and explain to her why you can't help her have a future. I know i could'nt. KHADR Khadr family bio Case of tears.

I find this alittle ironic don't you. My Webpage

An interesting tibit on new developments on the Khadar family, mentioned in this topic. My Webpage

Newbie: Actually i think we both wrong. The general meaning of the word "sodomy", or peccatum Sodomiticum (the sin of Sodom) is any form of sexual intercourse with a person of the same or opposite sex, except normal (penis-to-vagina) intercourse between man and woman. More often it is used to mean intercourse through the anal passage, especially between males. At the risk of being politically correct, the action described falls well within the definition of rape: rape: forced or manipulated nonconsensual sexual contact, including vaginal or anal intercourse, oral sex, or penetration with an object. This act was not about sexual contact, it was about torture, causing pain, and humility. what catogory it falls into i do not know, perhaps just torture.

Black dog: Sorry, I did not know that there has been aligations of Rape, of women and children. That being said and i do not want to sound cold but why has this not made front page news. A story this big should still be news worthy today, since the aligation broke in july. My Webpage There are several questions here: Has Hersh actually seen the video he described to the ACLU, and why hasn't he written about it yet? Will he be forced to elaborate in more public venues now that these two speeches are getting so much attention, at least in the blogosphere? And who else has seen the video, if it exists -- will journalists see and report on it? did senators see these images when they had their closed-door sessions with the Abu Ghraib evidence? -- and what is being done about it? Being sodomized, not raped. SO now we paint everyone with the same brush. and that every american serving is a torturer awaiting to happen. like i said those responsiable have been sentenced, if thier are new charges then those to , will be punished and sentenced. These new aligations are from the same time period as the orginal crimes perhaps even done by the same indivs. And yes they are bad apples, commiting crimes because one was following orders is not an excuse. As we seen with those that were charged. Perhaps i do watch to much TV, but if you could have prevented 9/11 by this method would you. DND has strict policies when dealing with POW's, they are cuffed or zap strapped, hooded, and separated, and talking or moving is forbiden. MP's will pick up all POW's from the front lines or place of capture and transport them to the rear for processing. in the case of Afgan MP's hand them over to the US for processing. The piont is Everyone must answer for thier actions.

Black dog: There was no Rape of anyone in US custody, gaurds have threaten male prisoners with rape but no rape occured. Placing prisoners in stress postions is legal according to genva convention. Bitten by dogs (one instance is recorded) And correct me if i'm wrong but those that carry out those acts of beating,dog attacks, light stick probes have all been charged with crimes and have recieved thier day in court and are now serving time in a military prison. That said those acts are unexcuseable, and those responsable have been charged in a public court. I not sure where you got your numbers from,but more than 11 US personal have been charged with murder, or manslaughter. Although i am a firm believer that the genva convention should be followed i also know there are going to be times when unconventional means will have to be used to extract info that is time sensitive or could save lives. I'am refering to extracting info via chemicals or drugs by a team of trained interrogators and medical professionals. And not the physical torture of prisoners.

Argus: And this is where the US is failing, is they need to quickly interrogate these Insurgents then charge them for any crimes they have commited. and tried in a court of law either a US court in Iraq perferable an Iraqi court. It has to be done publicly and quickly. Most intell they would have would become useless after a short period of time anyway, so holding them prisoner for long periods of time is mout except that they are off the battlefield. Another US failing is most if not all Muslim media are bias again'st the US. The coalition could use it's own media to broadcast in Arabic to paint a true story of events. broadcasting every one of these insurgents actions and the cost that iraqi people are paying for there so called liberation fighters.

This is a clear case of the "on scene commander" making the wrong decision. Who's actions will clearly effect more then just US troops in the region, but all coalition forces,including Canadian. Did they honestly think this would have enraged the taliban into taking on US forces in a toe to toe fight. They may be peasent fighters, but they do know one thing thats how to fight. And this action will not go unheeded. Being frustrated by the Talibans gurilla tactics is not an excuse to step outside the rules of engagement, it means doublily your efforts to find them. They would have been better served by allowing the village to pick-up the bodies for burial unheeded. or bringing the dead to thier mosque. and using that as part of thier phys ops. Coup de graces are forbiden according to the geneva conventions and are wrong in all cases. Medical aid will be given until persons dies of thier wounds. but it is clearly against the rules of war to put anyone out of thier misery. A combatant is not a prisoner until he has clearily surrendered and has no wpns or has been disarmed by friendily forces and is taken into custody, then and only then is he afforded the rights of a prisoner. The incident with the US soldier you mentioned was cleared of any wrong doing, as that insurgent was still a combatant. Not true. And it comes down to disipline, and punishing those that step out of the rules of engagement. Quickily, and publicly so that your enemies know that these actions will not be tolerated by them or ourselfs. These Soldiers knew exactly what they were doing, if they recieve a fration of the training we do on muslim customs and culture. US phys op's units would recieve even more training than the average grunt, on customs, beliefs etc. Besides you can not help but learn it while you are in the country. Coalition forces must take the moral high ground on ALL matters in this conflict, regardless of what the Bad guys do on a day to day basis. If they don't it will only add fuel to the bad guys cause and drag this conflict out.

Black dog: Those are US figures, However i could not find any figures published for Canada. Although your figures match your theory, do they take into account that perhaps the other laws required for conviction are weak, or poor investagation, or that the anti terrorism laws need to more specific. Below is link for terrorism acts here in Canada. terror in Canada Again i can not explain the low numbers of convictions. but terrorism is alive and well in Canada and there needs to be tougher controls on all terrorism not just terror that is muslim related. I think it is frustrating when there are know cases and the goverment can not do anything or has ongoing investagations such as below. Kadhars Terrorism is alive and well in Canada below is a book that was written on it. book A look at out imigration process immigration Below are numbers that were actually issued permits, read some of the classifations IE : Persons who have been convicted in Canada of a serious offence or for whom there are reasonable grounds to believe they have been convicted of a serious offence outside Canada ,606 According to immigration serious offenses are one that a person would serve 10 or more years in jail for. Do we have a problem, i think so. And these are ones we know about. My Webpage See table number 7 at very bottom. Table 7: Permits Issued from January 1 to December 31, 2001, [note 9] to Persons Seeking to Enter Canada, by the Inadmissible Classes of Which Those Persons Were Members [note 10] Section in the Act Explanation Number 19(1)(a) Persons who are medically inadmissible 208 19(1)( Persons who are unable or unwilling to support themselves and their dependants 6 19(1)© Persons who have been convicted in Canada of a serious offence or for whom there are reasonable grounds to believe they have been convicted of a serious offence outside Canada 606 19(1)(d) Persons for whom there are reasonable grounds to believe they will commit illegal activity 0 19(1)(e) Persons for whom there are reasonable grounds to believe they may engage in terrorism, espionage or subversion by force 1 19(1)(f) Persons for whom there are reasonable grounds to believe they have engaged in terrorism, espionage or subversion by force 11 19(1)(g) Persons for whom there are reasonable grounds to believe they will engage in acts of violence 0 19(1)(h) Persons who are not genuine immigrants or visitors 9 19(1)(i) Persons who need the Minister's consent to enter Canada but who are seeking to enter Canada without such consent 40 19(1)(j) Persons for whom there are reasonable grounds to believe they have committed war crimes or crimes against humanity outside Canada 2 19(1)(k) Persons who pose a danger to the security of Canada 0 19(1)(l) Senior officials of a government that engaged in terrorism, human rights violations, war crimes or crimes against humanity 10 19(2)(a) Persons who have been convicted in Canada of a less serious offence or for whom there are reasonable grounds to believe they have been convicted outside Canada 1,178 19(2)( Persons who have been convicted anywhere of two or more summary offences or for whom there are reasonable grounds to believe they have been involved in criminal activities 7 19(2)© Accompanying family members of an inadmissible person 21 19(2)(d) Persons who do not fulfil or comply with the conditions or requirements of this Act 1,671 Total 3,770 In the Kadhar case thier is more than just believes that are repellant but they have taken action. openily fighting coalition forces in Afgan, of which Canadian forces are a part of. then coming home to Canada and applying for medi care for injuries recieved in a war zone while fighting for the bad guys. There is something not right here.

PocketRocket: Your right, if there was no advance Intell or warning then yes no amount of conventional western style military forces are going to be able to counter effectivily most terror attacks. How ever Canada is expanding it's JTF unit to assist in Intell gathering, counter measures, etc.etc. I think your blaming the wrong people for thier inaction, CIA, and FBI are responsable for collecting intell on any attacks. one has to remember that ours and the US's whole workings is based on freedom of movement, goods and services need to be constantily in motion. Other than wiping out a known terrorist cell that had been discovered. you are right in prevention of terrorist attacks the Conventional military forces are not very effective. But that is not our main mandate to prevent terrorist attacks, that is not why the military needs a drastic cash influx. It's part of it but a small part. Canada's Military main mandate is the defense of Canada and her interests, both home and abroad. Laugh if you will but our current military forces would have a major problem resolving the Hanns Island issue if it came to a military response. And that is within our own borders. It has nothing to do with our quality of soldiers,airmen, or sailors because we have the best, it has everything to do with not having the right equipment or not having enough of it. The military is under going a major overhaul and re-distributing most of it's equipment to save money. most if not all combat units will be stripped of close to 2/3 of it's fighting equipment. So that thier is enough for deployments, to set up training centers and so we can deploy at a moments notice. Does this not send up warning flags to anyone. To assist with search and rescue duties in Canada. This is not a military function, but a coast gaurd one, they two have been cut to the bone, and the military has the equipment so they got the job. However it is one of the reasons we get new equipment. To assist with disaster reponse here in Canada and if possiable abroad. If katrina had landed in Canada vice the states we'd all have been still waiting for rescue. It would have taken every member of our military to cover this disater, however we would lack the equipment to do the job. Don't get me wrong Every person serving this nation is proud to do so, and would not trade it for any other job on the planet, (OK one but Hugh is still in the mansion.) All we want is the tools to do the job, safely,so we can return to our loved ones in tact. To do that we need Canadians to voice thier opinions to thier MP's.

err: Sorry for not being clear, I was talking about immigrants that have become Canadian citizens, They should be stripped of thier Canadian citizenship and deported back to thier country of orgin. I think the problem here lies in our current laws being to soft in regards to these matters. There are a few cases that i can think of now such as the muslim family in ont who is fighting a court case to have her youngest son released from gitmo, charged with the killing of an american medic. This family has know ties with bin ladin, her husband and oldest son were killed in afgan fighting coalition forces. And yet they remain in Canada . Another case is a muslim Cleric ( out west i think) how has been preaching hatred and has been under investagation for collecting monies for terrorist organizations. He to is still operating in Canada.

err: Our current imigration system is so backlogged that it in some cases it takes years to process applications, all the while these persons are roaming our streets. and then trying to deport them after the application is denied is a problem. Once they are made Canadian citizens should not entitle them to a free ride. and if it can be proven that they are linked to terrorists or criminal activity why should they not be deported. It only becomes a problem when they are 2 and generation Canadians. Then they should be punished within our justice system that has tougher laws on this activity. I agree, but Racial hatred,profiling is a double edge sword, And it is being used by alot of groups that operate freely within Canada to promote thier cause or causes in thier countries of orgin. One would have to ask them just why they became Canadian citizens in the first place.

err: Are you happy with our present imigration policy then. And what do we do about those that have been proven to have links to terrorist groups, violent crimal records, etc etc.

We were talking about if the country of Iraq was split up, there is no oil most of the Sunni sector.

Black dog: Which is why massive investment is going to be required, to create some sort of industry, or cash generating product. Yes, but what choice is there most are not receptive to a democratic system, and a democratic goverment that is controled by religion is not democratic. Let them choose what form of goverment they want, with some guide lines of course. It might be easier for them to swallow, and put into action. That is why it has to be global, not just troops/ agencies from the west but involing more arab countries as well. Your right the US does not have a good Arab repore but it can not be done without them. It was to be made very clear that this force is not invading or occuping set out diffent time lines for construction, withdrawal etc. . Actually it's pretty close, they have said that first security was going to be establish, ( something that has not be accomplished) then construction could start. Don't get me wrong construction and repairs to infra structure are on going but with military CBT Engineers doing it. what is needed is massive reconstruction projects and give these people a job other than killing infidels. Money is another quality of life matter that could make all the difference.

Black dog: Whether it is Iraq or divided up into small countries everyone needs a nation, something to call home. Yes Iraq was artificially created but that does not make it any less of a nation, you don't need to take ground through conquest to be called a nation. It does not have to democratic, (although most western nations will not support most other types of goverments). but it does have to be a goverment that will act in a civilized manner, towards it's people and other nations. and like i said before it does not even have to be unified, although if not, getting 2 or more parties to agree to borders, etc only complicates the whole process all that much more. Yes, they bought into some cleric's mumblings that the US was there to conquor them to take thier oil etc etc. I think that once some form of goverment is established and the people see that they are not there to enslave them, construction starts and they see the results they may just stop fighting...actions speak louder than words. The US is spread to thin to provide security to the entire nation, without this security construction can not begin. the first one s that need to be educated is the clerics once they stop preaching this hatred the fighting may stop. next is close the borders. Thousands of muslims not from Iraq are fighting in Iraq they need to be educated, or hunted down. No, it won't but without security nothing can get up and running. the security needs to absolute, at all levels military,police. And all the different agencies need to be involved to make this happen, not just construction, but putting back together the entire countries infra structure,from the refinerys to farms. If those fighters don't have anything to lure them back into a different live style they will continue to fight it's all they know. Once this is well under way the Iraqi people will police themselfs, it's amazing what runnig water does to the quality of life.