Jonsa

Are you seriously suggesting that it is okay to transfer arabs out of the west bank and gaza? that is what I was responding to. Anyone who suggests transfer of an ethnic population deserves to be labeled with that analogy. Even a rank idiot should be able to see that. Are you on drugs? How on earth do you get that from a simple statement that Islam considers Jerusalem holy? As do the jews and the christians.

So Gaza isn't occupied. Okay, do the gazans have control of their borders? do they have control of their air space? do they have freedom of movement? does Israel reserve the right to intervene militarily? are you suggesting that gaza is a sovereign entity? http://www.cjpme.ca/documents/41%20En%20Gaza%20still%20Occupied%20v.2.pdf I suggest nothing of the sort. I am well aware of the history of the region. Of course violence doesn't begat violence. I suggest only that the existing arab population of palestine resented the intrusion of european jews in what they considered their land. I am sure you can at least understand that kind of feeling. What transpired at the end of colonialism and the collective guilt of Europe wrt the jews, created the idiotic and completely unworkable partition plan. Didn't go over with any side. do you really think that arabs should have welcomed the jews with open arms? that watching zionism take root on the lands they had lived on for many generations, they should have simply rolled over and give it to the jews? do you know anything about human nature? In all the wars Israel has fought perhaps 15,000 killed. Terrorism from inception perhaps 3,000. Development of a military industrial complex as a primary economic engine. A disciplined highly trained citizenry. Considering the length and frequency of conflict, versus what Israel has achieved and in comparison to other wars, its small price. And if anything my bias in this conflict is toward Israel. The one thing that I think is absolutely wrong is Israel's settlement program. I happen to think (and the bulk of international opinion and law agrees) that Israel settlements are "illegal" in other words, Israel is stealing the land. Really sorry if you don't like that. You are still involved in a war. You might not think of the palestinians as an occupied people, but they certainly consider themselves as such. And as such a certain percentage of them will resist that occupation. Do some arabs want the total destruction of Israel - you bet. We both know that there is a fat fucking chance of that happening. Naturally, Israel has to pay the price for all that counter terrorism, all that territory security, its the cost of occupation and the cost of settlement. why are you complaining about it? It seems as though you are resentful of the palestinians for existing.

Bob, Israel is obligated to supply them with food, water, electricity, etc. They are an occupied people. You want them to be grateful to you for handouts and not be pissed that Israel is occupying their land? Israel is paying an incredibly low price for stealing all that palestinian land. While horrible and outrageous in the grand scheme of things, Palestinian terrorism amounts to nothing more than pinpricks. The number of Israeli deaths due to terrorism in the last 50 years is less than 2000. As for them being entirely responsible, are you blind? Of course no Israeli occupation policies could have any contributory effect, their being used as pawns by their arab league brethern was nothing. Granted they have suffered from corrupt leadership. They elected Hamas as much as a protest against Fatahs blatant corruption and incompetence as anything else. Seems most of the polling these days shows Hamas to have minority support and the desire for a peaceful two state solution to be the majority wish. Its interesting to note the reaction of a number of jews to what they saw as occupation of their land. They are heroes and the palestinians are terrorist scumbags - history is always written by the victors.

Yes, transfer the arabs to the west. Put on the jack boots, get the cattle cars lined up and ship them out. It would appear you know nothing about Islam. And its Jerusalem, not Bethlehem although that is also holy because it is the birthplace of Issa.

FYI, the US is far,far,far away from being bankrupt or even being broke. If it was, the entire global economy would collapse.

The mufti was not a nazi. He was a sympathizer, because the Nazis were the enemies of his principle enemy- britain. The fact that the Nazi's also hated jews was just a sweet bonus. The war was mutual. The Israeli's knew that the declaration of independence would be immediately followed by a declaration of war by the arabs. Both sides were prepared to start shooting on the 15th.

Nonsense. A large faction of palestinians and arabs have their hearts in it, it just they do not possess the means. Biological warfare? you must be joking. Its a sick joke, but a joke nonetheless.

A UN general resolution is NOT the partition plan. UN general resolutions aren't worth the paper they are printed on. the earth is flat.

Seems your argument changed in mid stream. The plan was never implemented. I could just as easily argue that without the plan, conditions were reaching a boiling point and the there would have been a fight anyway. And the land was never "turned over", it was fought over. The fact that the British decided to leave had way way way more to do with their dire financial straights than any alturistic "balfour" nonsense. they couldn't afford their imperialism any more.

No it wasn't implemented. Israel exists because it waged a "war of independence", commonly refered to by the arabs as al-nakba. You can read all about it in the history books.

sorry, ya lost me. vermin?

Israel gets along just fine with Jordan, Turkey, and Egypt. and you're a little behind the times on Hosni.

manipulative: That attempts to control or play upon others' hopes or fears to attain selfish ends while disregarding their aspirations or well being http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/manipulative.html Serving, tending, or having the power to manipulate http://www.thefreedictionary.com/manipulative Not a prejorative, an accurate adjective in this case.

ain't that the truth. Btw, the majority of settlers are secular, but there is more than enough loonie toons.

No, I'm afraid you are wrong wrt palestinian objectives. http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/polls/2010/p35ejoint.html I do agree that there isn't a snowball's chance of Israel giving anything to Hamas except a laser guided missile up the ass.

do you have a source for your claim about water plans before war? You see, you think that Israel won't compromise to achieve peace. I beleive that Israel is prepared to sacrifice a considerable amount to achieve peace, but only with a reliable and trusted partner, and frankly that doesn't come close to describing the palestinians at the moment.

How about alloowing the main settlement blocks to stay, removing all settlement from the jordan valley, getting other israeli land in compensation for the settlement blocks, sharing water resources throughout the region, just like hydro power at the moment. There are a lot of ways of compromise. You seem to think its a zero sum game for the palestinians, whereas I seem to think that if they got their heads outta their asses and became realistic about what they can achieve, they'd actually make a lot of progress. But NOTHING is going to happen while Hamas has gaza in its clutches. So until the palestinians can do something about the Iranian backed Islamists in the midst, they'll continue to get it up the ass.

I see things completely differently than you. The PA has had 7 years to distance itself from Arafat's stench. Since its the first since his death, of course its the most moderate in history. Its just as incompetent or did you notice they seemed to have lost a big chunk of their land to the most extreme palestinian regime in history. Losers always get fucked. Its up to the palestinians to recognize this and start to plan how to be constructive. They have to stop thinking of themselves as victims and start thinking of themselves as responsible for their own future.

Not at all. They have repeated demonstrated their superior manipulative skills, also and that isn't bad either I think you are just a tad too sensitive.

Its not foreign policy its occupation policy. and its do it to me and I'll give back to you in spades. Disproportionate response. A fundamental Israeli doctrine for the past 40 years.

Sorry, but there are winning strategies. There just hasn't been sufficient vision courage and leadership amongst the palestinian people. And at this stage with the split between Fatah and hamas a peaceful resolution and establishment of the palestinian nation ain't gonna happen. So lets see some unifying leadership, some real support for democratic process, renunciation of Islamist bullshit. The Palestinians are the losers, they have been consistent losers, and will remain losers until they figure out that losers don't dictate terms. Losers compromise and try to get their need to haves in order to survive and grow. They have to swallow their pride and forget about getting the nice to haves and the wish to haves and the hope to haves. Get what you need and build your own future. Palstinians don't seem to understand this simple principle of life.

Well, they are already getting fucked royally and have been since 1948. If not by the Israelis, then by their arab league brethren or their own leadership. Their attacks only create more bullying. Hence my insanity analogy. Hasn't worked, doesn't work and wont work. I must have completely missed the palestinians trying that whole peaceful route thing? Unless you are refering to implementation of Oslo and the creation of the PA. IIRC, things started to go their way a little, until Arafat fucked them once again. And I keep hearing this whine about western governments stopping support for Israel. Its like palestinian demands for full right of return - IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN.

No question about the right to resist. OTOH in this case it has always been a losing strategy. Its like the classic definition of insanity. The result will always be the same. That right to resist does not lessen the horror or repugnance of the results of that resistance. Particularly when the resistance is aimed directly at civilians.

No, history does not say otherwise. The partition plan was unimplementable. A product of colonial arrogance. Britain was extremely anxious to get the fuck out, and moved forward with a plan that was useless. The fact was that Israel wasn't "given" to the jews. They fought for it. your simplistic perception of the realpolitik of the time is typical. And yes, the leadership of the jews has been consistently smarter, more manipulative, more decisive and more realistic than the arabs. They have been very shrewd in their strategies. Is an act of terrorism the mark of an occupation? Nonsense. It was occupied and used as a token in the internal power politics of the arab league. Nasserism vs Damascus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Gaza_Strip_by_Egypt I find the suggestion that the palestinians just "give up" to be a suggestion devoid of any understanding of the human condition, but hey, that;s just me. Pulling a ghandi would be a smoother and far more realistic move.

Only difference is that Israel generally doesn't shoot first. Disproportionate response is primary Israeli doctrine. There has NEVER been a palestinian attack on Israeli soil that has not been responded too in a heavy handed fashion. Palestinians know this and appear to welcome such response, so they can leverage their casualities in the propaganda war. Seems they haven't been getting much arab attention lately. Indeed, I'd wager your response to this story has been the same for years.