Bob

Israel needs to take the threats to its security seriously, hopefully we'll have a real leader who recognizes the threat. As far as the USA is concerned, clearly Obama doesn't get it with respect to Iran (Bush didn't get it, either).

If history is an indicator, we're heading towards another major conflict. In the words of Aaron David Miller, in the absence of a political solution, the forces are history are telling us that we're wasting our time and that this conflict will be resolved (or kept going) through violence.

He's done several interviews and been duplicitous all the time. Do you really need me to link you to public proclamations made by him and other Hamas official before and after that interview that are clear about wanting to destroy Israel and Jewish independence? I read that article when it came out. It doesn't support your LIE that Hamas has ever offerd recognition of Israel. It simply states that Hamas will offer a cease-fire (for years, wow!) if Israel withdraws to 1967 borders. In other words, Israel must uproot half-a-million Israelis from Judea and Samaria and EJ in order to appease Hamas, which has called for Israel's destruction. What a great offer! This conversation is over.

It's tragic, they're victims of their own self-perpetuating cultural cycle of hate. Their own generational indoctrination of anti-semitism has come to haunt them, as they cannot a two-state solution if it involves a Jewish Israel and Jewish self-determination. It's terrible, their own best-interests are destroyed by ideology and hate.

You fool, 242 is subjective in nature. Both parties signed 242 (by extension "recognizing" it), but disagree on how it's to be implemented. How can you not know this and pretend to know the first thing about international law or this conflict? The USA sees 242 as a frame-of-reference towards its flawed proposal of a "two-state solution", but does not see withdrawal to '67 borders as absolute. There are about half a million Israelis living in Judea and Samaria and East Jerusalem, they're not going to be evicted or transferred to Palestinian sovereignty.

They're not ready for statehood. In time they may liberalize, but not now. As long as their priority is murdering Jews, they cannot be given independence in order to better facilitate their intentions.

naomiglover - I should've known better than to assume you were going to make a sincere effort at being honest in this discussion. You're grasping at straws (and dropping all important context, which you're ignorant of) trying to prove Israel's responsibility for the conflict and violence. It's pathetic to watch how hard you try to prove that there were (and are) sincere Palestinian moves towards real peace and reconciliation. The fact remains that Palestinians, in all manifestations of their leadership(s), have never recognized Israel's existence as a Jewish state, have never reconciled themselves to Jewish self-determination, and have never renounced terrorism. Those things must be changed if there is to be any hope for peace.

That means nothing when immediately after the failure at Oslo there was a wave of suicide bombings and other terrorism against Israel. Interestingly, even Wikipedia lies about this by stating that the PLO recognized Israel's right to exist by citing an LA times article, rather than simply examining the language of 242 which promised recognition of Israel contingent on unacceptable requirements. Although that's an interesting letter which I never read before (although it's mentioned in books I've read, I think), it doesn't override the formal and public agreements which never bore fruit - and NEVER recognized Israel. Also, please provide proof that the PLO charter actually was amended to remove the clauses that reject Israel's right to exist and promote terrorism. This is clearly yet another of Arafat's duplicity, saying one thing and doing another. The PLO charter was never amended, and terrorism ensued after Oslo's failure. Again, why are you so passionate about lying in order to defend the Palestinian cause? What is wrong with you?

Good job ignoring context, again - as Israel has repeatedly been attacked on its border, the expansion of its military control keeps the enemy precious kilometres further from its major population centres. You original post is still full of lies and inaccuracies and missing context. I cannot fathom why you lie so much to favour Hamas, the former PLO, PA, and other sworn enemies of Israel and the Jewish people. What in the world is wrong with you?

Peace was offered to Palestinians. Read Dennis Ross' "The Missing Peace". 97% of the West Bank, all of Gaza, and EJ as the new capital of Palestine - Arafat not only rejected it but was complicit in the following intifada. They don't want peace. At least Arafat didn't want peace. It was also offered in 1947.

I didn't call Arabs a disease, what I said was that Arabs in Palestine and surrounding countries do not want peace (they themselves say they don't want peace, let alone the endless acts of violence at home and abroad), and are therefore an occupational hazard of the area. We know that as time goes own cultures can evolve, hopefully Arab culture will liberalize as time goes on, but as of now it isn't compatible with Israeli values. Allow me to clarify, many prevalent components of Arab and Muslim culture are akin to natural disasters like earthquakes and epidemics. More specifically, it is these components of Arab and Muslim culture (primarily anti-semitism) which kill Israelis, like earthquakes kill people in California or famine in Africa. What I meant to write was that it is components of Arab and Muslim culture that can need to be excised, at least in order to have real peace and reconciliation. I don't believe there is something inherently flawed in their DNA. It's easy for you, thousands of kilometres from the conflict to sit and judge and pretend everyone is equal and all cultures are of equal merit. It's quite a bit different when your friends and family are murdered because they are Jewish, in accordance with the values of another culture. If your "balanced" approach were true, why is the Palestinian leadership totalitarian? Why does Israel stand alone in the Middle East with respect to human rights for its citizens (political, social, religious, and economic freedoms)? The reason is because of the huge chasm of difference between our values, a chasm you refuse to acknowledge exists. I guess I'm unsurprised, how can I expect non-Jews to care about the preservation of Jewish identity and statehood? Blacks didn't get civil rights in the USA because non-blacks chose one day to become enlightened, they had to work for it and mobilize on their own. The same is true in a sense for Jews, non-Jews cannot be expected to really understand what we're dealing with. You don't have a stake in it, you don't have the same degree of motivation to learn about it or understand it, so your ignorance is understandable. Basically, you don't care about these issues. Kinda like my ignorance about events in the Sudan or Brazil (or countless other issues and places) - it's mostly the result of me not having a sense of connection to these lands, so my knowledge of these places and associated issues is superficial.

No, I stand by my position. Dominant themes in Arab culture is incompatible with Israel. Arab political parties in Israel openly show contempt for Jewish nationalism and solidarity with Israel's enemies. Do I even need to get into the anti-semitism and terrorism that's rampant in the Arab world? Many Israeli-Arab identify themselves as Palestinian, which attaches them to a society that denies the Holocaust, glorifies martyrdom when murdering Jews (the infidels), openly states and works towards the destruction of Israel, and on and on and on. Look at how much controversy there was over Lieberman's proposal of a loyalty oath to all Israeli citizens as a condition of citizenship. Why would such a proposal be so opposed to if not because of Arab disloyalty to Israel? As things are today, Arabs, on the whole, are not compatible with Israel. Israeli society is not one which celebrates murder and death, which teaches its children that Arabs are pigs and subhuman, that persecutes political opponents and religious difference, that engages in honour killings, that denies the Holocaust, etc, etc, etc. Maybe it's a generational thing, but as things are now, I'm not going to apologize for stating the obvious incompatibility between liberal Israeli society and Islamic fundamentalist society of Palestinians (and the broader Arab-Muslim collective).

You don't even know what 242 was about.... 242 was never implemented. It was a proposal to give Israel recognition by the Palestinians in exchange for some subjective requirements, generally known as "land for peace". It never came to fruition, so it's a lie to state that any Palestinian authority has EVER recognized Israel. Recognition is always offered contingent on unacceptable requirements as far as the Palestinian interpretation of 242 is concerned (i.e. right of return for Palestinian refugees, Jerusalem as the capital of the potential Palestinian state, dismantling of Jewish communities, etc). So no, Arafat NEVER recognized Israel - his recognition was contingent on an impossible Palestinian interpretation of 242. Hamas has NEVER offered recognition of Israel. This is an absolute lie, good luck backing that up. Hamas has offered "peace", provided Israel withdraw to 1967 boundaries (an impossible request given Israeli presence in Judea and Samaria, something like half-a million Israelis) and give Jerusalem as the capital of the new Palestinian state. Even on those impossible conditions, Hamas didn't offer recognition of Israel, rather some form of "peace". As usual, you are ignorant and avoid relevant context. Spare me, your knowledge of these matters is subpar and you clearly don't do the upkeep necessary to stay abreast of important details. You're the one lying and spreading misinformation. More safe would be to say you're advocating acquiescence to those who wish to destroy Israel and the Jewish people.

So all cultures and peoples are equal? No culture or group of people can be criticized for the behaviours and values it represents?

Your solution - the Helen Thomas argument. If there were no Jews in Israel, certainly there would be peace, right? Stop lying about Jewish-Muslim brotherhood in pre-Israel. Jews were oppressed, plain and simple. Then stop lying about the causes of the conflict being Israeli expansionism post 1967. The hostility of Arabs to Jews began decades before the establishment of Israel, let alone decades before any occupation took place resulting from the Six-Day War, and subsequent settlements. I'm going by the statements and actions of the Palestinians (and Arab world) - they are not opposed to Israeli settlements, they are opposed to Israel's existence as a Jewish state. When the Arabs rejected the partition plan of '47 there were no settlements. When Arab armies invaded Israel in '48, there were no settlements. When there were border flare-ups between '48 and '56, there were no settlements. Hamas, and the many other terrorist groups in Gaza and Judea/Samaria, do not have a beef with settlements - they have a beef with Israel in its entirety. They say they are sworn to armed struggle (terrorism to honest people, "noble resistance" to our enemies) and then follow their on their commitments by murdering Jews. Jews have been being murdered many decades before any "settlement". You can stop with your bullshit, now.

Oh, it's anti-Arab to be opposed to what they do? For accuracy's sake I'll throw it out there that I honestly do not believe that all Arabs are alike, but let's not put our heads in the sand and pretend that murder and violence is common (political opponents, religious apostates, suspected Israeli "collaborators", the families of these persons, etc), arbitrary arrest and detention, advocating hatred of Jews and America in schools and other institutions, as well as an outright rejection of any "peace deal" that includes Israel remaining a Jewish country. Do you need to me to link you to articles outlining the thousands of rockets shot into Israel just since 2006? What about the three murders (three separate incidents) of Israelis from terrorist just in the past two months? How about the Ramallah lynching? What about successful and unsuccessful attempts to kidnap Israelis near border crossings? How about celebrations of terrorism like 9/11? What about Palestinian talk shows equating Jews to pigs? How about misogynistic attitudes? Pretending we're all alike just makes you look like a fool. You don't know anything about Palestinians or Arabs, yet you get offended when social trends from this group are brought to the forefront and criticized. If you support Palestinians without calling for Palestinian cultural change, you're supporting people who hold values entirely contrary to the values of Canada. I'm going by the very words (and actions) of the Palestinian leadership, both Hamas, the PA, and the long-list of other organizations. If there was a political party in Canada that ran on a platform resembling Palestinian or Arab cultural trends from the Middle East you'd be first in line calling for its dismantlement.

Well, you don't know anything about Palestinians. It may make you feel better to argue that I am overgeneralizing, but the words and deeds of Palestinians from the bottom to the top paint a very clear picture of what their beliefs are. Of course not all of them are the same, I never said such a thing or suggested such a thing - but the horrible social trends and values are widespread enough. You're living in a fantasy world if you think all socieities out there think like Canadians.

Don't pretend you have the moral high-ground by opposing the removal of a hostile population because of the apparent inhumanity of the process, while not recognizing the alternative - more of the same terrorism against Israelis and resulting wars. In your world, the right of Palestinians to live where they are trumps Israeli rights to stay alive. The fact remains that the Palestinian presence in Israel KILLS Israelis. They are a hazard of the region like earthquakes in California or disease in Africa. Deporting them to the lands of their brothers and sisters would save lives on both sides.

All of this is based on the flawed supposition that the settlement enterprise is the cause of hostility (i.e terrorism and murder) from the Palestinians and the Arabs and Muslims against Israel Jews, and our allies abroad. Go read the statements from Hamas and Hezbollah and the PA. Their own positions are not grounded in '67 borders. They want all of Israel. They want Jews out. It is amazing how elaborate you are with the motivations for the violence against Israel from its enemies, while completely ignoring the very words of these enemies. Hamas doesn't issue statements with details about which settlements are on their legal territory, and the blockade, or this occupational component, or the status of Arabs in Israel, their beef is with Israel in its entirety. It is shocking to me that someone like yourself who considers herself knowledgeable about the fundamental components of this conflict won't simply read the resolutions of the Islamic parties in power of Palestinians territories. I don't follow Palestinian closely at all and even I know that "moderates" like Mahmoud Abbas refuse to recognize Israel's Jewish character and support terrorism (i.e. "noble resistance"). Your whole post is making up positions for a particular party with respect to their motivations - read their own words, read their public statements, read the resolutions they pass at their conventions and congresses. Now, I won't even get into the specific falsehoods in your post, claiming that Israel is responsible for the escalation of violence in Cast Lead. When "extremist" Israeli settlers murder Palestinians, or launch rockets into Palestinian tows, then you'll have a point. Furthermore, unjust acts of violence against anyone by an Israeli is punished by the Israeli system. In Gaza, they are celebrated. You`re using what Aaron Miller calls `the power of the weak` to defend Palestinian violence - by implying that they can't be held responsible because of their own ineptitude (obviously a result of the occupation). Do you support the Law of Return and public funding for reinforcing Jewish culture and Jewish social programs? I used to be on the fence about this issue, I actually leaned heavily in favour of a Palestinian state. As I learn more and more about this conflict, however, I've realized that Palestinians simply cannot be given their own state. First of all, they don't want a two-state solution, they want a one-state - an Islamic state, with the liquidation of Jews. More specifically, though, a Palestinian state would simply become a larger version of the terror state that is Gaza. When Palestinian assume normal social values, then it's something to be considered. As they are now, however, a Palestinian state would simply be a disaster for Israeli security.

You can the plead ignorance - you don't know what Zionism is. If you DO know what Zionism is, however, and are opposed to it, you might as well go all out and become an anti-semite and go to Holocaust denial forums. Jews and Arabs have NEVER lived in peace, side-by-side, in the Middle East. Jews were always subjugated as second-class citizens in the Islamic world, legally and with widespread support of the population. Of course there were many genuine partnerships and friendships between Jews as Arabs (just as between Jews and Germans pre-Nazi Germany), but that doesn't override the broader theme of persecution. Jews, and other non-Muslims, were "dhimmis". Oppression of Jews is a natural consequence of living in a Muslim country, given what the religion teaches about Jews. This falsehood you're advancing is intended to support the lie that conflict is the result of the Jewish arrival in pre-Israel Palestine and subsequent establishment of Israel. Of course this is true, but this is due to the Arab and Muslim rejection of Jewish self-determination. Following your logic, the Middle East would be peaceful is the Jews simply left or relinquished their autonomy. Sorry, not gonna happen. We won't accept oppression as a means to achieve your perception of "peace". I think you need to read up on the difference between genocide and ethnic cleansing. They're not exactly the same thing. To suggest that Israel building a separation barrier between it and its enemies is ethnic cleansing is simply absurd. Seriously, if you're interested in this subject go do some real reading.

First of all, ethnic cleansing isn't the same thing as genocide. More importantly, though, it's simply a falsehood to suggest that Israeli expansionism in disputed territories is the cause of Arab and Muslim hostility towards Jews in Israel (to say nothing of Arab and Muslim hostility towards most Jews of the Middle East and Africa, which effectively cleansed the lands of Jewish presence and prompted these Jews to be liberated by coming to Israel). If your assertion was correct (and it most certainly is not correct), then how do you explain the thousands of Jews murdered by Arabs and Muslims in Israel pre-1967? What about the war of '48? What about the war of '56? What about the terrorism on Israeli borders during these decades? Terrorism didn't start with the military occupation, and it certainly won't end if Israel withdraws from disputed territories. We need to keep Palestinians as far away from mainland Israel as possible, Israeli expansionism through the building of Israeli presence in the West Bank plays a role in achieving that security need. Remember, if you support the Palestinians, you're supporting a group of people that is openly anti-semitic, anti-Israel, anti-West and anti-liberal. They do not believe in the values and freedoms that we take from granted. Political opponents are kidnapped, tortured, and murdered. Suspected Israeli "collaborators" are kidnapped, tortured, and murdered; not-to-mention what happens to their families (go read Son of Hamas, I have the e-book if you're interested). Religious apostates are mistreated or murdered. Honour killings take place. Suicide bombings are celebrated. Mass murderers are celebrated. 9/11 was celebrated. Israel's founding is commemorated as the ultimate tragedy. Yet you support these people - how honourable of you.

I'm not certain she doesn't know much more about the conflict than the bullshit she learned growing up. Most Jews in Europe aren't from Poland or Germany, either.

Perhaps, but most Jews have a solidarity with Israel from the gut. The perspectives of naomiglover are extreme and on the far edge of the fringe, and are wholly unrepresentative of the broader Jewish collective. Look, there are some things you just don't understand about us if you're not Jewish. It goes the other way around, I am completely unfamiliar with the endless nuances of many other cultures and religions. All I'm curious about is whether it's accidental of intentional that naomiglover's own self-descriptions in these forums never mention anything about her Jewishness. If you're Jewish, you'll say so. So, unsurprisingly, she's thrown away her Jewish identity as she's developed her political/social opinions. It's irrelevant to my point that the USA is the highest authority in the world with respect to human rights, and countries like Iran, NK, and Russia don't have a leg to stand on with respect to these issues. I also don't feel like getting into a pointless discussion about American adventures around the world throughout history.

It's shocking to you because you know nothing about Israel, let alone the Arabs of Israel. The Arabs of Israel are openly hostile to Israel's Jewish character, and their election of Arab parties to the Knesset who openly show contempt for Israel's Jewish character and solidarity with those who wish to murder Jews and destroy Jews tell us most of what we need to know about them. Are all Israeli Arabs supports of terrorism and disloyal to the state and its character? No. Plenty of them are, however, and relations between them and the Jewish majority are not great.

My education with respect to political ideologies is far beyond amateur Wikipedia articles. I know what fascism is. To be opposed to an Islamic terroristic component of the Israel society is hardly fascistic. To even suggest that Israel isn't pluralistic or homogenous with respect to its culture, politics, religion or any other way illustrates supreme ignorance of the Israeli social fabric. In your warped world, tolerance and pluralism includes accepting those who want to destroy you and your way of life. The difference between most Jews and Arabs in Israel is hardly the type of difference between Democrats and Republicans in the USA. Arab parties in Israel (who get seats in the Knesset exclusively due to Arab political support) are not subtle about their opposition to Israel's Jewish identity and solidarity with terrorist groups who wish Israel's destruction. I guess rejecting them makes me a fascist.