Bob

Your point was clear, I was just commenting on the article in a general sense. To your point, though, I'm not sure Canada's official positions on Israel and public declarations of semi-support for Israel are done with widespread public support. It is clear to me that a significant portion of Canada, most likely a majority, are anti-Israel (entirely rooted in ignorance and hypocrisy, and connected with Canada's growing Arab and Muslim demographic).

Surprise surprise, "Jesse Rosenfeld", another ignorant and degenerate moron Jew liberal arts graduate who spits on the defense of freedom against its enemies and supports terrorists. I swear, Jews compete with the Arabs and Muslims for the title of "Israel's worst enemy". This piece of garbage can't even shave for his profile picture - perhaps trying to show solidarity with the homeless?

In all seriousness, naomiglover doesn't care about either side of this conflict. She's wrapped herself up in self-righteousness to make up for lacking anything meaningful in her life. The endless posting gives her a sense of purpose, a sense of meaning. She's never donated a dime to any genuine charity or ever volunteered a minute of her time to make a positive difference in the world (attending an Israel hate-fest demonstration doesn't count as volunteering). You can claim to be passionate all you want about this issue or that, but the emptiness of your inaction speaks volumes to what really matters to you. Actions speak louder than words, and your actions are surely empty. I know what kind of person you are, there are millions of you out there. Armies of people like yourself with no meaning in their lives with nothing of value to contribute to the world except the condemnation of things and people they don't understand. You've got no stake in the matter, so it's easy for you to just look at deaths and injuries as facts in a news article. I'll say it again, you're too ignorant and hate-filled to have any hope for redemption. Hating Israel with all your venom won't fill whatever spiritual void is inside you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBP-XCwlhbI Follow the links to watch all six parts. She talks about "dhimmitude" in Egypt, and her expulsion from Egypt for being Jewish. Perhaps Israel should return the favour and remove the fifth column of some Arabs from its society (who are openly hostile to Israel and its Jewish identity). Remember Lieberman's proposal for the loyalty oath? How moronic is Israel to not pass such a common-sense proposal in the face of threat to its social fabric?

And still... nobody has watched the video from the original post.

Initially they considered other territories. The existence of a biblical terms in the name of the nationalist movement isn't that meaningful. What's meaningful are the words of the early Zionists themselves. Read Herzl's articles and foundational book on Zionism, read about the early Zionist Congress discussions and decisions, read the positions of early Zionists - there was extremely little religiosity as a part of this movement. The early Zionists viewed themselves much more as an ethnicity than a group connected through religion and/or culture. Your assertion remains false, stop trying so desperately to prove it. Zionism may have evolved over time in some dimensions among some groups towards a more religious perspective (i.e. God promised this land to us), but that was never in the early Zionist movements and it still isn't a major component of the contemporary Zionist movement.

Your sixty-second internet research project doesn't qualify as some sort of knowledge of Zionism. You're still wrong in suggesting that Zionism is grounded in biblical prophecy or religious perspectives of territory, copying-and-pasting things from anti-semitic websites doesn't change anything, Your implication with the source "Jews Against Zionism" seems to be a suggestion that a Jewish person can't be anti-semitic. Again, you excel with stupidity.

Is Michael Coren's shows carried by any of the Rogers cable channels?

No it isn't. Zionism is a contemporary movement primarily rooted in the Jewish experience of persecution in Europe, and isn't connected to ancient Jewish persecution. It has little to nothing to do with biblical prophecy. Herzl and many early Zionists weren't particularly religious, and formed Zionism as a primarily irreligious nationalist movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UptNr0v1p3E

I was under the impression that we didn't have any Muslims in here. Maybe I'm wrong. Who knows? Do we have any Muslim participants? I'd like to get their opinion(s) on some things.

TrueMetis - Can you make your attempts to trivialize the history of Jewish persecution around the world any more obvious? Are you disputing that the Jewish experience in contemporary history isn't one of extreme persecution? Israel lost 10% of its population in the War of Independence. It lost a thousand soldiers in the Six-Day War (thousands more injured). It lost three thousand people (thousands more injured) in the Yom Kippur War. I guess that's an "easy" victory. Not enough dead Jews, according to you?

So are Jews and Palestinians equal peoples? Do both equally subscribe to universal values of freedom and democracy? Do both equally support and live by the same economic, social, and religious liberties?

After all these posts, bloodyminded continues to put his head in the sand regarding the realities of Arab and Muslim society in the Middle East. The endless examples of hatred and violence among them warrants no recognition. They want to kill us, they DO kill us, their leaders and governments openly declare they want to kill us, their TV shows and textbooks and newspapers advocate killing us, their fundamentalist religious values advocate killing us... yet acknowledging these realities makes one a racist. How many Jews have to be murdered by a group that openly states its aims before you can make generalizations about the group?

Are you serious? You've never heard of the Spanish Inquisition? The pogroms in Russia? Discrimination against Jews in the Soviet Union? "Dhimmi" status when living under Islamic rule in the Ottoman Empire? Murders and assaults against Jews in pre-Israel Palestine? How about nearly ten wars Israel has fought with Arabs sworn to its destruction since its inception, and thousands of Jews murdered by terrorism during this time? The world at large never made a serious move to assist Jews (outside of American resupplying of Jewish arms in '56) in peril.

Zionism isn't about a biblical right to a piece of land. Do some real research. You know very little about Zionism and it's evolution over time. It was absolutely founded as a "solution" to anti-semitism. Herzl felt that anti-semitism was an unstoppable component of the world (history proves that he's right), and that Jews needed autonomy and security from persecution in a state. Eventually, the land of Israel was decided upon. If you're opposed to Zionism, you're opposed to Jewish self-determination, as we know Jews cannot have guaranteed self-determination without a state - the history of brutal anti-Zionism around the world isn't hard to study up on. Only if one rejects Jewish identity can one be opposed to Zionism, taking the perspective that a country cannot be both Jewish and moral and fair. Only if you have a problem with Judaism can you opposed to a Jewish state. Certainly many anti-Zionists are opposed to all nationalistic movement, in which they are equal opportunity bigots. Jewishness is not something that is contrary to the values of a free society. It is entirely compatible with liberal democratic values, and this is illustrated in Israel. You could easily have a Christian country rooted in the values of a liberal democracy, as well.

I think there's an important different to be drawn between the warden of a Nazi death camp and Israeli citizens making a wrong turn.

I don't know. If he was, I'm sure it wasn't by the survivors who were near death.

There is nothing wrong with recognizing trends among particular groups of people that are entirely contrary to universal values of liberty and freedom. You see a world that isn't really there. Again, it's easy for you to spew your idiocy from the comfort of your Canadian home - Canada isn't representative of the majority of the world, and especially not comparable to Arab and Muslim populations in the Middle East.

I was clear about labelling the cultural practices (terrorism and incitement, specifically) as equivalent to a natural threat to Israeli security, like an earthquake or an epidemic. How anyone can reject this reality is beyond me. I'm not gonna walk on eggshells with matters of life and death.

That's inaccurate? When two Jewish service persons mistakenly drove into Ramallah and were arrested and subsequently ripped to pieces by hundreds of cheering Palestinians, tossing their body parts around as tokens of victory, how else can we describe that but a population of animals? What about the many other kidnappings, torture and subsequent murder of Jews by Palestinians? When they openly danced in the streets when thousands were murdered on 9/11, was that savage? When they teach their children through Sesame-Street-esque puppet shows on TV (yes, they have television and their own TV shows) that Jews are vermin and that there is no such thing as Israel, is that not savage? When they glorify martyrdom by strapping oneself with bombs to walk into a synagogue and murder and maim Jews on Passover, is that not the behaviour of savages? When the popular government openly call for Israel's destruction and the liquidation of Jews, can we then describe them as animals? At what point does the generalization become fair? How many decades of terror and how many thousands of Jews must be murdered (in Israel and abroad) and injured before we can say to ourselves, "you know, these Palestinians are largely messed up, they need to change"? Like I said, you're too ignorant and hate-filled, which is ironic because you're entirely detached and have no stake in this conflict. You can't be helped. I only respond out of fear that some honest person might read your garbage and believe it.

You'd be justified if we advocated and participated in disturbing practises. When Jews start sitting on welfare in huge numbers, having huge families with little to no family income, marrying off our children as property, not contributing to society and our economies, engaging in mass terrorism and murdering thousands of people, openly declaring war on the West and its freedoms, practising female genital mutilation, teaching our children than non-Jewish people are subhuman, denying the Holocaust's occurrence, moving to impose Jewish halachic law on the country and the world, moving to imprison and execute non-Jews and political opponents, kidnapping and beheading journalists, blowing up hotels, embassies, hotels, restaurants, etc... then you'll have a point. Until that day, please don't pretend that Jews and Palestinians can be compared as equal peoples with compatible values.

Only a moron would suggest that Bonam's description of certain cultures as "savages" is racist. How else do you describe a culture that practises female genital mutilation? What about marrying off children as property? What about passionate advocacy and engagement in wholesale murder and terrorism? What about imprisonment, torture, and murder or political and religious dissidents? What about honour killings? What about oppression of women and minorities? So you need more examples? What about denial of social and economic freedoms? Only a fucked up person would be opposed to describing these practices as "savage".

I didn't say Palestinians are a disease, what I said was they (as a consequence of their cultural, religious, and political leanings) can be likened to a natural hazard (like a disease) with respect to the risk they pose the lives of Israelis. Like an earthquake or an epidemic, they are a natural hazard to the lives of Israelis, specifically Jews. When it becomes unacceptable to call for the destruction of Israel and despicable to call for the wholesale murder of Jews among Palestinians and the broader Arab and Muslim collective, then we can talk. There's nothing inherently wrong with the DNA of these people, but there is certainly an open hostility to Jews and Israel that is prevalent among them. Recognizing reality does not make someone racist.

I'm not accusing everyone of anti-semitism. What I said very clearly was that anti-semitism is a major component of virtually all anti-Israel movements, and that it's widespread among Israel's enemies, particularly in the Arab and Muslim world. I also equated anti-Zionism with anti-semitism. Look, if you're opposed to anti-Zionism you're opposed to Jewish self-determination, that is unequivocally anti-semitic. Do I even need to mention centuries of persecution of Jews which needs to be addressed in the form of a physical state. As has been evidenced by the world many times (the Holocaust, most notably), the world will never come to save Jews in trouble, outside of some exceptions. It's not up for debate.