Bob

You continue to talk about the price Israel and the Jewish people have paid and continue to pay for our independence. You think the price is only calculated in blood (of which the price is already very high, but a necessity towards preserving our rights). Consider the fact that every drafted young man gives three years of his prime to the army, basically becomes an economic liability rather than a tax-paying economic asset, while every young girl does the same only for two years. The consider the fact that these are working years, not childhood or retirement years. Assuming that the average working Israeli is gainfully employed for about 45 years, we're losing about 6.5% and 4.5% of our youth's productive years, where they become economic liabilities. This doesn't even touch on the incalculable costs of the stress and pain involved with many soldiers' duties. See, this is the kinda thing you can only learn from talking to someone who's actually thought about these things. Bear in mind, this is one of several costs you haven't considered. I'd indicate more, but I just don't have the energy to explain it all to you, at the moment. As far as the population of Israel, the Jews who came from Arab/Muslim lands tend to vote more right-wing than the Jews with European heritage, primarily because they lived under Arab/Muslim subjugation and feel little love lost for people who, generally speaking, oppressed us. You and I both know why you stated "European Jews", and I'll leave it at that. What you don't know, however, is that the majority of Israel's Jewish population is not of European heritage. Again, the heritage and origins of Israel's Jewish population is completely irrelevant.

It's one of the tragedies of this conflict. All that lost potential. You know, Gaza has beautiful beaches and could've become a tourist hub. Ah well, I'm not naive or ignorant enough to think it'll ever happen. Things will only get worse...

I addressed this just a moment ago. Certainly Gaza isn't completely sovereign or occupied, but it is much much much closer to sovereignty than to occupation. And yes, Gaza controls its side of its borders. Just as Canada controls what happens on our side of the border with the USA. The restrictions placed on Gaza by Israel via the transfer of goods and people across its shared border with Israel, and its sea border do not constitute an occupation. Neither does control of its airspace. What about the other half of the Israeli Jewish population that isn't European? Why did you even mention "European"? Would things have been different if the early Zionist pioneers were primarily from Morocco or Argentina? You and I both know why you mentioned that. The countries from which the Jews in modern Israel returned (from all over the world), is completely irrelevant. What do you mean? The 1947 Partition Plan was accepted by us. Even though yes, it was unworkable from a security perspective. No, I don't expect that from them. In fact, I expect an eternal rejection from Arabs that this is our land and always will be. I know them very well. You also seem to be indicating that you recognize the irreconcilability of this conflict. If that is your perspective, we're in agreement. No, it's a heavy price. Considering that you don't know what the price is, and never made any payments towards this price, it's quite arrogant of you to be telling us what's a steep price. Was it worth it and does it continue to be worth it? Yes. But centuries of persecution, millions of murdered and oppressed martyrs, and all of the modern history of the Jewish people intertwined with Israel is certainly not a small price. Take a walk through any of Israel's military cemeteries and tell us it's a small price to pay for independence, freedom, and self-determination. Whatever. People who use meaningless terms like "international opinion" and "international law" never really know what they're talking about. What's next, the "international community"?

I don't care what anyone says about it. It serves political objectives to describe Gaza. The reality is simple, Israel controls ITS side of its border with Gaza, as any country does with respect to borders it shares with another state (or in this case, a territory). On the other side, it's under complete Gazan control. Yes, Israel does control the airspace and sea border of Gaza, as is required given the current conflict between Israel and Gaza. it would be irresponsible to do otherwise, it's security necessity. Yes, these are components of an occupation, but they certainly do no qualify as an occupation. An intelligent person should realize that the term "occupied", just as "sovereign", is subjective and certainly they both exist on a continuum - perhaps they each exist on opposite poles of that continuum/spectrum. And certainly Gaza is much closer to a sovereign state than it is to an occupied territory. In other words, if we were to examine the situation in Gaza honestly, there'd be many more components compatible with sovereignty than with occupied-stated.

The point I was making is that you're viewing this conflict as a bunch of little flare-ups, each with their own starting points. That's the message we're getting from you when you sat "Israel generally doesn't shoot first". Generally speaking, there aren't any more starting points for this conflict. It's never really stopped. That's all I'm saying. Just because the news doesn't report on these issues for a little while doesn't mean the conflict has stopped, doesn't mean the terrorists have stopped their efforts to murder us, and certainly doesn't mean Israel has stopped efforts towards protecting us from this seemingly eternal threat. You're also implying that the occupation is, at the very least, a primary motivation of terrorism. If that's true, why were they terrorizing us decades before the occupation began after the Six-Day War? It's just a bullshit argument, and people like you are never gonna stop using it it seems. What were the Arabs protesting when they massacred Jews in Hebron in 1929 (one of many examples of terrorism from the Arabs against us in the decades before Israel's rebirth)? What were they protesting when they all came together to destroy Israel in 1948? How about in 1954 or again in 1967? Again, the "occupation- terrorism" line of argumentation doesn't hold any water. Arabs do occupy parts of Israel. They compose about 20% of our population, and quite a few of their areas are very "under the radar" of the Israeli government - with such a hostility towards Israel that police never dare go in without a full team and riot gear. Jews are afraid to go into many Arab parts of Israel, with good reason. It's an unofficial occupation, in a way. Israel most certainly does not. Israel operates with very restrictive rules of engagement, and the terrorists break all the rules of war. In all seriousness, though, I believe there is much truth to "all if fair in love and war". The problem is, we're the ones playing by the rules and those rules are killing us and protecting them. Israel always defends herself with both hands tied behind her back. The Cast Lead, the 2006 Lebanon War, and the Mavi Marmara are all recent examples of Israel showing massive restraint. Assuming you are familiar with the history of this conflict, you don't seem to have a strong understanding of the basic. Knowledge is one thing, understanding is another. No. Israel certainly does not launch missiles into crowds of people or level apartment buildings because of "one terrorist". You're just making shit up, and certainly could not cite one real example of either of these events taking place. The exact opposite is true, where Israel calls of actions when it is determined that there is too high a risk to civilians. That's the code of conduct of the IDF. The occupation is an unfortunate necessity given the track record of the residents who live there. It sucks for Israel to have to endure it, but it is what's necessary.

It's almost as if you're trying to draw a parallel between the actions of the IDF and terrorist who commit mass murder by blowing up Jewish interests such as synagogues, Jewish community centres, and Israeli embassies... Do you really think you're going to convince anybody into thinking that the conduct of the IDF is of the same morality as that of Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Al Qaeda, Al Aqsa Brigades or any other of the plenty terror groups out there?

First of all, Gaza isn't occupied, so Israel has no legal responsibilities towards them. They are not occupied, so don't describe them as if they are. Moreover, the residents of Gaza are supplied with electricity and water from Israel, paid for with their foreign aid. More importantly, do you think this problem started after June of 1967? They were murdering us and waging wars against us long before the term "occupation" showed up after the Six-Day Way. Indeed, the violence against us began decades before Israel's reestablishment in 1948. So please don't tell me that terrorism and anti-Semitism is a product of occupation, or of Israel, because it started many years before that. Stop describing Palestinian behaviour as a behaviour of realities that occurred AFTERWARDS and as a RESPONSE to their initial hostilities. And it's too bad that two thousand murder victims isn't enough spilled blood to be a big deal to you. Nevermind the massive price Israel has paid and continues to pay towards security. Whether it be casualties in previous wars, the fact that the draft takes three and two years, respectively, of every enlisted young man and woman's prime years, the massive amount of money and energy spent on security, the thousands and thousands of injuries, etc, etc, etc. Your statement about Israel paying "an incredibly low price" for "stealing Palestinian land" betrays your ignorance and bias. You don't know what we've paid, so why are you speaking about it? Lastly, you think the casualty statistics from terrorism reflect the intentions of the terrorists? Ever consider the fact that there is such a thing as counter-terrorism which works towards keeping those numbers as low as possible? Who pays that price, exactly? In other words, does counter-terrorism operate based on those who have already been murdered or does it seek to prevent those who have not yet become victims? You make it seem as if the number of murder victims from terrorism is entirely determined by the terrorists, and not a function of their intentions and actions to murder combined with our intentions and actions to protect. Don't think that because casualty rates have dropped in recent times that this is a reflection of paradigm shift in Arab/Palestinian perspectives towards terrorism. They never stop trying. Again, who pays that price?

You're touching on something I've seen before many times; you're implying that the Arabs can be bought off with economic well-being. It's as if you think Arab/Palestinian nationalism can be circumvented by giving them money. You're showing that you have no respect for Arabs, at least with respect to their nationalistic ambitions, thinking they can simply be paid off. Most of us know better, at least I do. Trying to describe this conflict in such economic terms demonstrates that you don't even grasp the basics of this struggle. Lastly, what in the world are you going on about with your obesity/overweight nonsense? Just a few minutes walking around Israel would show most people that the average waistline here is certainly a few inches less than in Canada, at the very least. You certainly have a penchant for making strange and obscure rants.

Haha, I understand. At the risk of unfairly seeming like a leftist weasel, which I most certainly am not - I wouldn't use the term "Islamofascist". I feel the term is politicized and strongly associated with anti-Islamic prejudice. I think "Islamist" (Islamism) is a better term to describe the political Islam that you and I are concerned about.

I don't understand, you mean the vitriol coming out from these hardcore Islamists is about a hundred times more filled with hate than the worst soundbytes we can find from Pat Robertson?

Just for the sake of nitpicking, I wouldn't describe those events as "pre-emptive", except perhaps the Six-Day War (Israel struck first in an inevitable war). The hostilities from the Arabs/Muslims and their widespread anti-Semitism has never, ever ceased. It started decades before 1948, and is still alive and well. Of course I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. As an aside, Israel often, if not always, bows to international pressure )despite the sometimes tough talk) and restrains itself way to much when defending us from this aggression. Anyways, that's another topic entirely. And yes, of course the hypocrisy runs deep in the "international community" - condemning Israel for all sorts of ridiculous things, while ignoring extremely serious problems that go unaddressed. Palestinians are simply worth more than others on the planet, which is why they receive more money than anyone else despite not really needing it and certainly not deserving it. This is the inevitable consequence of having a massive population of Arabs and Muslims around the globe who are consumed with hatred for Israel and Jewish people. It's the politics of numbers.

The Arabs have already cleansed themselves of all Jews. This includes Arab-administered areas in Judea and Samaria as well as Gaza, as well as virtually the entire Arab/Muslim world. It is illegal for a Jewish person to own property in PA and Hamas-controlled areas, and has been for decades. Selling property to a Jew is punishable by death. Do I even need to explain how dangerous it is for a Jew person to go into a place like Ramallah? Unless you're one of those Jews that is openly anti-Semitic/anti-Israel/anti-Zionistic, it's quite unsafe for a normal Jew to travel in these areas. Do you need anecdotes of Jews who were lynched/murdered, kidnapped/abducted, or assaulted as proof? I see your point, but it ignored relevant context. Moreover, all Jews were ethnically cleansed from areas across the Green Line after 1949. We didn't return the favour, however. Do we need to talk about the exodus of nearly a million Jews from Arab/Muslim countries after Israel's reestablishment?

Interesting video with an IDF spokesperson putting in place a rat bitch from Al-Jazeera regarding Cast Lead (it's a semi-old video). Notice the typical verminous filth she states, as we hear from some of our less distinguished in here. She makes the implication that Israel should not defend itself until Jewish blood has been spilled. This directly ties in to the rhetoric of "proportionality". Basically, until more Jews are murdered or horribly injured, Israel has no right to respond with seriousness. In other words, if you attack me with a gun, I can't defend myself until I'm shot. She also plays the typical moral equivalence card, comparing the actions and intentions of the terrorist scum with the distinguished IDF. Pathetic, but typical. The video is in Arabic with English subtitles.

Fair enough, but it's certainly not difficult to see the huge overlap between the groups that constantly decry "world Zionist/Jewish conspiracies" and oppression of the "Palestinian people" and those groups that constantly decry "Western imperialism", "American-backed dictatorships", "Crusaders", and allege theft of oil. There's a lot of overlap, there.

It's called "anti-Semitic bias". Or, at the very least, "anti-Israel/pro-Arab" bias.

I also agree with this 100%. I'm not particularly drawn to Harper as a leader, either. I like him enough, but not a lot.

I don't think this is important to most Canadians, but the Green Party is anti-Israel.

I agree 100%. I think this natural desire faces somewhat of an obstacle in the form of our electoral system, though - unless people regularly vote for the MP from their riding who belongs to the party of the leader they prefer.

I understand what you're saying. I think that the biggest obstacle to genuine democracy in the Middle East (aside from Israel, of course) is cultural. People need to believe in it. It's empty if it's just words on an official document. Overlapping and connected to what I just wrote, is whats jbg just already indicated - that people resolve differences peacefully and respect differences of opinion (within reason). They need to have a tolerance and acceptance of pluralism and equality. Big "D" Democracy depends as much on what is in the hearts and minds of the people as what is written in official documents setting the guidelines of the political architecture. I think the "hearts and minds" part of the democracy equation is seriously lacking among Arabs/Muslims, but hey, maybe I'm wrong. I just don't see them, broadly speaking, as tolerant and accepting of pluralism. Nor do I see them as tolerant or accepting of equality based on fundamentals we tend to take for granted in Canada: race, gender, age, religion/lack of religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. We'll find out sooner or later, I suppose.

What "detente" are you talking about, exactly? Politically, Syria always attacks Israel and the Jewish people. This doesn't matter too much, as honest people realize the Syrian government has no legitimacy. More importantly, though, Syria provides weapons to terrorists in Lebanon (Hezbollah), Gaza (Hamas and many others), and the West Bank which are used to murder and wound Jews. Just because there's no conventional war going on between us and them is different than suggesting that there is some "detente" going on.

Chippewa, are you some Aboriginal separatist/nationalist who regards Canada as "stolen land"?

What the hell?

You can see it everywhere you look. Look at the people involved in the anti-Semitic demonstrations. Look at the people who attack Jewish persons and Jewish property. Look at who is blowing up synagogues, Jewish community centres, Israeli embassies, taking hostages, hijacking airlines, and conducting other acts of mass murder and terrorism in the name of "Arab liberation". Look at the statements from Muslim/Arab organizations/institutions (like CAIR and the MCC) regarding Israel/Zionism/Jews. Go to YouTube and look at the videos and read the posts from Arabs/Muslims regarding Israel. Read Arab news and their hate-filled reporting on Israel (al-Jazeera being a perfect example). Listen to the opinions on talk radio from Arab/Muslim callers when talking about Israel. Finally, speak with any Arab/Muslim about these issues. With very few exceptions, they all speak with one voice - it's almost exclusively anti-Semitic/anti-Zionist/anti-Israel. I'll end my rant there. I think the point is clear, that there is a deep-running anti-Semitic current in Arab/Muslim society the world over. The fools and the rats will deny this. But for those who are aware enough and honest enough to acknowledge it... it's quite a bleak situation. I can't really see it being undone, as these trends tend to perpetuate themselves. And it's getting worse, not better.

That's an interesting insight. It's built on the supposition that the Liberals and NDPers aren't idiots, though. At the risk of sounding somewhat funny, although I'm being completely serious, I'm not sure I can agree with that supposition. As a side-note, I think we're getting exactly what we deserve, as Canadians. The country is filled with leftists, apathetic non-voters, hate-filled Quebec separatists, and we just take this abuse from our officials. We're getting exactly what we deserve with the likes of Harper, Ignatieff, Layton, and Duceppe.

I don't have access to North American cable news, anymore, besides Fox News (which I don't really watch). My parents told me that the Itamar murders didn't get any play-time at all on the regular circuit - CNN, MSNBC, CBC... is that true? I noticed that all the websites of the outlets I just mentioned used biased language in describing the events, but like I said, I didn't get to watch the TV news cycles as I don't have those channels in Israel. The Mavi Marmara got more coverage, and the agitators got as much if not more sympathy, right?