naomiglover

I made a thread about it. Egypt also shares the blame.

That video is not from the Gaza war. It's a video from years ago being re-used as propaganda to justify Israel's attack on ambulances and hospitals. There is no concrete evidence that this was done.

There is no debate or questions here, at least on these forums, that women are subject to discrimination in parts of the Muslim world. None of the western countries support discrimination against women in those parts of the world. However, many of the western countries, including U.S. and Canada support Israel's discrimination of Palestinians and we have many apologists, such as yourself who try to justify the discrimination directed at the Palestinians. This is the difference.

So what? They are defined as refugees in every sense of the word. The horrible conditions that many of these Palestinians live in, aside, if they are given citizenship in those countries, they would lose their status and their goal of wanting to return to their land. The Palestinians and the Arab League know this and accept it. So anyway, this piece of fact about refugees already living in the neighbouring countries killed jbg's last argument, didn't it? jbg usually prefers not to respond to facts. So I will not hold my breath and wait for him to acknowledge his error.

That video is not evidence that Hamas used ambulances during the Gaza war.

Richard Goldstone is the most qualified person for this job. How can you argue with someone who has the following credential: - Supreme court judge in South Africa and one of the biggest influences during the transitional period after Apartheid South Africa - Chief prosecutor of the United Nations (UN) International Criminal Tribunals for the former Yugoslavia and for Rwanda - A member of the International Panel of the Commission of Enquiry into the Activities of Nazism in Argentina (CEANA) - He changed the wording of the UN mandate to hold 'everyone' accountable in the Gaza conflict. His report investigated both alleged Israeli and Hamas war crimes Not to mention that Richard Goldstone is a Jew. A Zionist Jew on his own account. You lose all credibility and respect when you try to dismiss Richard Goldstone's experience and credibility in handling the investigation.

CAMERA is not a trustworthy organization and is part of the propaganda machine. Here is what the Goldstone report has said in regards to the allegations of Palestinian groups using hospital facilities: The Mission did not find any evidence to support the allegations that hospital facilities were used by the Gaza authorities or by Palestinian armed groups to shield military activities and that ambulances were used to transport combatants or for other military purposes. On the basis of its own investigations and the statements by UN officials, the Mission excludes that Palestinian armed groups engaged in combat activities from UN facilities that were used as shelters during the military operations. The Mission cannot, however, discount the possibility that Palestinian armed groups were active in the vicinity of such UN facilities and hospitals. While the conduct of hostilities in built-up areas does not, of itself, constitute a violation of international law, Palestinian armed groups, where they launched attacks close to civilian or protected buildings, unnecessarily exposed the civilian population of Gaza to danger. Goldstone Report - Page 13/575 Here is the mission's methodology in regards to investigation and evidence - Full information starts on page 6 of the Goldstone Report: 17. The Mission based its work on an independent and impartial analysis of compliance by the parties with their obligations under international human rights and humanitarian law in the context of the recent conflict in Gaza, and on international investigative standards developed by the United Nations. 18. The Mission adopted an inclusive approach in gathering information and seeking views. Information-gathering methods included: (a) the review of reports from different sources; ( interviews with victims, witnesses and other persons having relevant information); © site visits to specific locations in Gaza where incidents had occurred; (d) the analysis of video and photographic images, including satellite imagery; (e) the review of medical reports about injuries to victims; (f) the forensic analysis of weapons and ammunition remnants collected at incident sites; (g) meetings with a variety of interlocutors; (h) invitations to provide information relating to the Mission’s investigation requirements; (i) the wide circulation of a public call for written submissions; (j) public hearings in Gaza and in Geneva; 19. The Mission conducted 188 individual interviews. It reviewed more than 300 reports, submissions and other documentation either researched of its own motion, received in reply to its call for submissions and notes verbales or provided during meetings or otherwise, amounting to more than 10,000 pages, over 30 videos and 1,200 photographs. --- One comment by one or two people is not evidence that something did happen. Close to 200 people were interviewed. So what do you say about the other allegations in the report? Have you had a chance to look at it? It's quite the read.

Show me this media report. What do you have against Richard Goldstone and his investigation and report? Why is it not good enough for you? Is it because it criticizes Israel? Does criticism of Israel automatically disqualify any report or comment?

Your perspective is very skewed. How exactly are the Palestinians continuing their war? Is resisting the occupation an act of war? Why do you put Palestinians in quotation? Is this another attempt by you to say that there is no such thing as a Palestinian? Why don't you leave the revisionism to DogOnPorch and instead have an honest debate.

There are already a growing number of Palestinian refugees in other countries. Are you calling for a full on ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from their land? Here are the number of refugees, as according to Wikipedia: # Jordan 1,827,877 refugees # Gaza 986,034 refugees # West Bank 699,817 refugees # Syria 432,048 refugees # Lebanon 404,170 refugees # Saudi Arabia 240,000 refugees # Egypt 70,245 refugees

Check the Goldstone report and show me where it is confirmed that the ambulances were being used other than to carry the injured during the Gaza attack. This is not the first time you are repeating a myth. What about the rest of the information, specifically the food shortage that the blockade has created? Do you have anything to say about that or are you here only to show your unconditional support for your team while turning a blind eye to facts?

You are ignoring that the U.S. government is heavily influenced by Israeli lobby. You are also ignoring that the unconditional US government support for Israel has created a negative atmosphere and view of the U.S.

Food: A 2010 World Health Organization report stated that "chronic malnutrition in the Gaza Strip has risen over the past few years and has now reached 10.2%. Micronutrient deficiencies among children and women have reached levels that are of concern." According to UN OCHA: "Over 60 percent of households are now food insecure, threatening the health and wellbeing of children, women and men. In this context, agriculture offers some practical solutions to a humanitarian problem. However, Israel's import and access restrictions continue to suffocate the agriculture sector and directly contribute to rising food insecurity. Of particular concern, farmers and fishers' lives are regularly put at risk, due to Israel's enforcement of its access restrictions. The fact that this coastal population now imports fish from Israel and through tunnels under the Gaza-Egypt border speaks to the absurdity of the situation." 72 percent of Gaza's fish profit comes from beyond the three nautical mile mark, but further restrictions by Israel's naval blockade prevents Gazans from fishing beyond that mark. Between 2008 and 2009 the fishing catch was down 47 percent.

Health: Gaza's health sector, dramatically overworked, was also significantly damaged by Operation Cast Lead. According to UN OCHA, infrastructure for 15 of 27 of Gaza's hospitals, 43 of 110 of its primary care facilities, and 29 of its 148 ambulances were damaged or destroyed during the war. Without rebuilding materials like cement and glass due to Israeli restrictions, the vast majority of the destroyed health infrastructure has not been rebuilt. Many medical procedures for advanced illnesses are not available in Gaza. 1103 individuals applied for permits to exit the Israeli-controlled Erez crossing for medical treatment in 2009. 21 percent of these permits were denied or delayed resulting in missed hospital appointments, and several have died waiting to leave Gaza for treatment.

Industry: Prior to the siege, the industrial sector employed 20 percent of Gaza's labor force. One year after the siege began, the Palestinian Federation of Industries reported that "61% of the factories have completely closed down. 1% was forced to change their scope of work in order to meet their living expenses, 38% were partially closed (sometimes means they operate with less than 15% capacity)". A World Health Organization report from this year states: "In the Gaza Strip, private enterprise is practically at a standstill as a consequence of the blockade. Almost all (98%) industrial operations have been shut down. The construction sector, which before September 2000 provided 15% of all jobs, has effectively halted. Only 258 industrial establishments in Gaza were operational in 2009 compared with over 2400 in 2006. As a result, unemployment rates have soared to 42% (up from 32% before the blockade)."

Water: Israel has not permitted supplies into the Gaza Strip to rebuild the sewage system. Amnesty International reports that 90-95 percent of the drinking water in Gaza is contaminated and unfit for consumption. The United Nations even found that bottled water in Gaza contained contaminants, likely due to the plastic bottles recycled in dysfunctional factories. The lack of sufficient power for desalination and sewage facilities results in significant amounts of sewage seeping into Gaza's costal aquifer--the main source of water for the people of Gaza.

from foreignpolicy.com In recent days, coverage of the attack on the aid flotilla headed to the Gaza Strip has focused on the lack of availability of certain humanitarian goods. This fact sheet is a reference tool based on data collected by international aid agencies and human rights groups on the impact of the siege on the population of Gaza Electricity: The siege has led to a significant lack of power in the Gaza Strip. In 2006, Israel carried out an attack on Gaza's only power plant and never permitted the rebuilding to its pre-attack capacity (down to producing 80 megawatts maximum from 140 megawatts). According to the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (UN OCHA), the daily electricity deficit has increased since January of 2010 with the plant only able to operate one turbine producing only 30 megawatts compared to its previous average of 60-65 megawatts in 2009. The majority of houses have power cuts at least eight hours per day. Some have no electricity for long as 12 hours a day. The lack of electricity has led to reliance on generators, many of which have exploded from overwork, killing and maiming civilians. Oxfam reported that "[in 2009], a total of 75 Palestinians died from carbon monoxide gas poisoning or fires from generators, and 15 died and 27 people were injured in the first two months of this year."

What a terrible argument. Wanting justice and a fair treatment of the Palestinians does not mean that I support the unfair treatment of women in parts of the Muslim world.

I never said South Africa disappeared or Israel will disappear. Apartheid South Africa, however, did disappear. If US stops supporting Israel economically and politically, Israel's violations will end sooner than later. Israel's current agenda and ideology will not be able to last much longer. With or without US's help. The number of Israelis and Jews supporting Israel's violations are decreasing. Especially those who live outside of Israel. Majority of the supporters have become either religious radicals or old timers who are still hanging on to the 1967 movement. The zionist movement is no longer sustainable.

You're falling out of character. You've gone from the straight talking no nonsense BushCheney2004, to pretending that the whole world doesn't already know that Israel has nuclear weapons. Cut the bull. You should leave that to people like DogOnPorch and American Woman. Israel has received an estimated $114 billion dollars in military and economic grants and other types of aid, like immigrant and ASHA. Close to half of this $114 billion has been in military grants. The money Egypt and Jordan receive are to keep them in check and to not cross Israel. This is why Mobarak is widely known as a dictator of its own people and a puppet to the Americans and Israelis. Why do you think Egypt agreed to keep its borders closed to Gazans, despite the Egyptian people's discontent? It's the $1billion it receives yearly. The money aside, the biggest help Israel receives is US' unconditional political support. Remove the aid and the political backing, Israel would not last. I'm quite certain that in time, U.S. will no longer be able to support Israel's policies and agenda. Israel will be another Apartheid South Africa.

Your fingers get fatter when your lies get bigger. Amnesty International: Suffocating Gaza - the Israeli blockade's effects on Palestinians 1 June 2010 Israel's military blockade of Gaza has left more than 1.4 million Palestinian men, women and children trapped in the Gaza Strip, an area of land just 40 kilometres long and 9.5 kilometres wide. Mass unemployment, extreme poverty and food price rises caused by shortages have left four in five Gazans dependent on humanitarian aid. As a form of collective punishment, Israel’s continuing blockade of Gaza is a flagrant violation of international law. Read all about it, here. Richard Goldstone's conclusion, after his investigation in Gaza: "The primary purpose" of the economic blockade Israel imposed on Gaza was to "bring about a situation in which the civilian population wuld find life so intolerable that they would turn Hamas out of office, as well as to collectively punish the civilain population,". Collective punishment is illegal under international law. But since when did you or the apologists care for international law? It's your word (aka Israeli propaganda machine) against legal experts and organizations. You lose.

Seriously American Woman. You are blaming the humanitarian crisis and the malnourishment of the children on the parents. You sad, sad person. You started out somewhat objective, but, I guess desperate times require desperate measures. As the world, outside of the average activist, starts to wake up to the Israeli violations of humanitarian laws, the apologists have to kick it up a gear. You have fast sunk into a desperate defender of evil. Shame on you and people like you.

The Israeli well-oiled propaganda machine is in full gear with the help of the agreeable mainstream media and the apologists who are running rampant on this message board. Lets look at what the rule book really says: Part III: Basic Rules and Target Discrimination Section 1: Basic Rules 39. Parties to the conflict shall at all times distinguish between civilians or other protected persons and combatants and between civilian or exempt objects and military objectives. 41. Attacks shall be limited strictly to military objectives. Merchant vessels and civil aircraft are civilian objects unless they are military objectives in accordance with the principles and rules set forth in this document. 42. In addition to any specific prohibitions binding upon the parties to a conflict, it is forbidden to employ methods or means of warfare which: (a) are of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering; or (B ) are indiscriminate, in that: (i) they are not, or cannot be, directed against a specific military objective; or (ii) their effects cannot be limited as required by international law as reflected in this document. SECTION II : PRECAUTIONS IN ATTACK 46. With respect to attacks, the following precautions shall be taken: (a) those who plan, decide upon or execute an attack must take all feasible measures to gather information which will assist in determining whether or not objects which are not military objectives are present in an area of attack; (B ) in the light of the information available to them, those who plan, decide upon or execute an attack shall do everything feasible to ensure that attacks are limited to military objectives; © they shall furthermore take all feasible precautions in the choice of methods and means in order to avoid or minimize collateral casualties or damage; and (d) an attack shall not be launched if it may be expected to cause collateral casualties or damage which world be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the attack as a whole; an attack shall be cancelled or suspended as soon as it becomes apparent that the collateral casualties or damage would be excessive. SECTION III : ENEMY VESSELS AND AIRCRAFT EXEMPT FROM ATTACK Classes of vessels exempt from attack 47. The following classes of enemy vessels are exempt from attack: (ii) vessels engaged in humanitarian missions, including vessels carrying supplies indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, and vessels engaged in relief actions and rescue operations; 48. Vessels listed in paragraph 47 are exempt from attack only if they: (a) are innocently employed in their normal role; (B ) submit to identification and inspection when required; and © do not intentionally hamper the movement of combatants and obey orders to stop or move out of the way when required. SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT Neutral merchant vessels 67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they: (a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture; (B ) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy; © act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces; (d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system; (e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or (f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions. 69. The mere fact that a neutral merchant vessel is armed provides no grounds for attacking it. SECTION II : METHODS OF WARFARE Blockade 102. The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if: (a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other objects essential for its survival; or (B ) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade. 103. If the civilian population of the blockaded territory is inadequately provided with food and other objects essential for its survival, the blockading party must provide for free passage of such foodstuffs and other essential supplies… The bottom line is that the legality of the blockade - which has, by the admission of the Israeli government itself, the purpose of “put[ting[ the Gazans on a diet”, is in fact illegal under these laws because it is designed specifically to cause collective suffering throughout the entire populace. That renders Israel’s interception of the humanitarian aid ships illegal. Additionally, Israel is not letting supplies through freely after inspection. It is in fact seizing those supplies and letting the vast majority of them rot, for the express purpose of enabling the continued starvation which the blockade is meant to enforce. Israel’s raid on those ships was illegal. But don’t take my word for it. Read here: http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce

Part III: Basic Rules and Target Discrimination Section 1: Basic Rules 39. Parties to the conflict shall at all times distinguish between civilians or other protected persons and combatants and between civilian or exempt objects and military objectives. 41. Attacks shall be limited strictly to military objectives. Merchant vessels and civil aircraft are civilian objects unless they are military objectives in accordance with the principles and rules set forth in this document. 42. In addition to any specific prohibitions binding upon the parties to a conflict, it is forbidden to employ methods or means of warfare which: (a) are of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering; or ( are indiscriminate, in that: (i) they are not, or cannot be, directed against a specific military objective; or (ii) their effects cannot be limited as required by international law as reflected in this document. SECTION II : PRECAUTIONS IN ATTACK 46. With respect to attacks, the following precautions shall be taken: (a) those who plan, decide upon or execute an attack must take all feasible measures to gather information which will assist in determining whether or not objects which are not military objectives are present in an area of attack; ( in the light of the information available to them, those who plan, decide upon or execute an attack shall do everything feasible to ensure that attacks are limited to military objectives; © they shall furthermore take all feasible precautions in the choice of methods and means in order to avoid or minimize collateral casualties or damage; and (d) an attack shall not be launched if it may be expected to cause collateral casualties or damage which world be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the attack as a whole; an attack shall be cancelled or suspended as soon as it becomes apparent that the collateral casualties or damage would be excessive. SECTION III : ENEMY VESSELS AND AIRCRAFT EXEMPT FROM ATTACK Classes of vessels exempt from attack 47. The following classes of enemy vessels are exempt from attack: (ii) vessels engaged in humanitarian missions, including vessels carrying supplies indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, and vessels engaged in relief actions and rescue operations; SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT Neutral merchant vessels 67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they: (a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture; ( engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy; © act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces; (d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system; (e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or (f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions. 69. The mere fact that a neutral merchant vessel is armed provides no grounds for attacking it. SECTION II : METHODS OF WARFARE Blockade 102. The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if: (a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other objects essential for its survival; or ( the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade. 103. If the civilian population of the blockaded territory is inadequately provided with food and other objects essential for its survival, the blockading party must provide for free passage of such foodstuffs and other essential supplies… The bottom line is that the legality of the blockade - which has, by the admission of the Israeli government itself, the purpose of “put[ting[ the Gazans on a diet”, is in fact illegal under these laws because it is designed specifically to cause collective suffering throughout the entire populace. That renders Israel’s interception of the humanitarian aid ships illegal. Additionally, Israel is not letting supplies through freely after inspection. It is in fact seizing those supplies and letting the vast majority of them rot, for the express purpose of enabling the continued starvation which the blockade is meant to enforce. Israel’s raid on those ships was illegal. But don’t take my word for it. Read here: http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce

The ship was not in Israeli waters (Polar Bear Den). It was in international waters. You recognize that, correct? A blockade that is recognized to violate international law, recognized by Amnesty International and Richard Goldstone. By the way, those two are considered respectable and experts on international and humanitarian laws. (outside of the Israeli government and their apologists' circle.) You mean the rules of an illegal blockade?