Progressive Tory

Unless the NDP choose a new leader, they will also be irrelevant next election. The Bloc only has to answer to Quebec. All other parties must answer to the entire country, including Quebec.

I never said he would get Harper's job. Only that his name was on the list of people that are being considered, including Bernard Lord (who I hadn't heard of but looked up), Peter MacKay and Jim Prentice. The Globe and Mail provide a longer list, but not all are credible. Who will replace Stephen Harper?

Harper's economic concerns pre-election were very different from those during the campaign; and different still once the campaign was over. Beforehand he warned Canadians that his 'Cap and Trade' environmental plan was going to be costly, but did an about face, suggesting the Carbon Tax would bankrupt us. According to MacLean's magazine when comparing the two, Cap and trade was 'just as costly, twice as confusing and probably half as effective.' Yet he ran a successful campaign against the cost of the Green Shift. Harper has a green plan too, though he'd rather not talk very much about it right now "Well, now it's October, in the middle of an election campaign, and Stephen Harper no longer wants to talk about the costs of his environmental plan. Indeed, he never even mentions his plan. Rather, he wants to talk about the other guy's plan." Or Perhaps: Canada PM Harper Says No Risk of Federal Deficit Despite Slowdown As the Prime Minister who supposedly has a Master's degree in economics, he should have been better prepared. Our banking system is sound because of measures taken long before he ever hit the political stage. He played with it a bit by allowing 40 year mortgages, but then clawed them back when he realized that might not have been a good idea; using it as a 'measure' to protect Canadians, when it was his government who allowed them in the first place. Sorry, but when it comes to flips flops, the Conservatives are not immune.

To suggest that George Bush held off a recession is misguided. Since this economic crisis we have many economists weighing in, with conflicting theories and plans for recovery. Jimmy Carter says: "Deregulation and what he called a withdrawal of supervision of Wall Street had encouraged irresponsible elements in the U.S. financial system, enabling banks to borrow 30 times their value." Do you know that the U.S. now owes China 1 trillion dollars???!!! Bush inherited a surplus. The debt clock in Times Square was taken down during Clinton's administration because there was no debt. It was recently taken down again because it ran out of zeros to tack to the end. I don't have to listen to economists. Common sense tells me that this mess was created by the Bush Administration's policies.

Thanks for sharing that. I think it's an accurate summary of what I've been hearing. Michael Ignatieff really had no choice, but putting Harper on a short leash was prudent.

Maybe since he heard that Charest is one of the people vying for his job, he's become 'chilly' toward the Premier. This isn't over yet. The budget vote on monday could be very interesting. We keep forgetting that Duceppe and Charest were elected by the people of Quebec to represent their interests. It's their job to challenge anything that doesn't have those interests at heart. Shutting up means not doing their job.

They're getting louder and clearer all the time. Don't go by sensational headlines, but what the grassroots are saying. Another complaint I've hear a buzz about is the new cabinet. Many of the Party faithfuls have been overlooked again. Maurice Vellacott shut out, while Gail Shea, who won her riding by 76 votes, gets a Cabinet position. I think many of these guys are getting tired ot waiting for promises that are never going to come.

Very well said. I was really hoping to hear from the old Calgary School, Class of 93, Reformer. The heart and the soul of this Party. I was still voting PC, when the Reformers came on the scene, and while it wasn't a direction I would have gone, liked some of the fundamentals of the party. Also, for some reason when Preston Manning spoke, I felt compelled to listen. I guess that's his gift. I heard all the 'Right-Wing Nutjob' comments; a lot of that coming from Paul Martin's camp; but always told people that Canadians voted for them because of those beliefs, so had no problem with it. From the other side, I never supported the merger either, so started voting NDP (I couldn't stand Paul Martin at the time). It wasn't until Michael Ignatieff took over the leadership that I'm now supporting the Liberal Party, because they're now closer to my Red Tory leanings. (I can't believe I'd ever have heard myself saying that) As a PCer and Red Tory this budget is so against everything I ever believed in. People are suggesting it's a Liberal budget, but I think it's more NDP. It's an accident waiting to happen. Thank you for sharing your views. I respect that.

Back to the original topic, Michael Ignatieff has said that he is allowing his MPs to voice their opinions, because they are the ones who will have to face their constituents; not him. If they don't speak out about the 1.6 billion dollars that was taken from Newfoundland's equalization money to pay for other things, they could probably never go home again. Remember, the budget hasn't been voted on yet. What I'm finding very funny from Conservative supporters, is that Michael Ignatieff will have to share the 'Blame' for this budget. If it's so good, why aren't they say he will share the 'Glory'.

I agree. I think we'll see an election before we see a Coalition gov't, especially since the leader of that Coalition gov't doesn't really want it. He'd prefer an election; probably more than the Conservatives right now. They've still got a lot of fence mending to do.

A recent poll showed that 1 in 4 Canadians are afraid of losing their jobs. But what the CP have to look at, again to their base, is that Albertans polled higher than the rest of Canada. 40% of Albertans are worried about their jobs. "Albertans, whose economy has been fuelled by high oil prices, were concerned their job market was running out of gas. The poll found 40% of respondents were less confident their job was safe, compared to 14% who were more confident.... People who are less confident in where their job is, are spending less and doing less to help the economy than those who are as confident as last year or feeling more confident." Their base doesn't like the budget. Their base doesn't like a Conservative probation. Their base are the most worried in Canada that their jobs are not safe. Do they listen to their base or simply tow the party line? For Harper it's about losing his job. For cabinet ministers it's about losing their jobs. For backbenchers it's about losing their integrity.

Ok. We're not talking about whether the budget is good or bad or whether or not Colby Cash is a born again socialist. We are discussing the Conservative Party of Canada and it's founding principles. Off the top of my head, when the Alliance and PC merged there were something like 66 Alliance MPs and 9 Progressive Conservative MPs. Many people may believe that the Party has moved to the centre, but their base is still very strong. This budget is not a Conservative Budget based on the principles of this country's conservative party. They have to be wrestling with it. Yes Flaherty threw in tax cuts to help soften the blow, but we are talking about their founding principles If Alberta doesn't like this budget or the fact that they're on probation, they could be in trouble. Alberta will never go Liberal, but if an alternative to the CP is presented, it could be a different story.

That's my point. Is Harper even in the driver's seat anymore? Six months ago Conservative MPs would have allowed anything. My purpose with this thread is not to defend or condemn the budget, but how tough it must be for the Conservative MPs when it goes against everything they've ever believed in. Remember the Reform Party was created to oppose Mulroney's deficit spending, amoung other things. They've already been told to put their social conservative principles on hold and buried deep. Now they're told they must accept a fiscal move that would have had them marching in the streets if it had been a Liberal budget. My question is, knowing that, will they stick to their principles and listen to their base; or sit back and agree to anything just to stay in power? We're talking a 5 year plan, which is not a temporary situation in anyone's book. What on earth will they campaign on next election? We're the party who allowed ourselves to be put on probation by the Liberals????

Budget spending raises doubts among some Conservatives I mentioned earlier that I had been hearing some grumbling within the Conservative Party about the 85 Billion dollar deficit projection. We were discussing one or two Liberal MPs who are having trouble selling it back home. However, could we see a few Conservatives vote down the budget on Monday? This goes against everything they claim to stand for. "With a federal budget projecting that Canada will be $85 billion further in debt by 2013, some Conservative party faithful are questioning what it means for the party's ideology. "... the budget may have been directed more at helping the Conservative's minority government stay in power rather than helping Canadians. "Former Conservative MP Monte Solberg told CBC News on Wednesday he's heard concerns similar to DeGreeve's from other Albertans." Name one thing that's conservative about Stephen Harper's NDP budget "I will not be supporting this budget today, nor will I be voting Conservative any more. The Conservative Party and Stephen Harper have strayed so far from the principles of conservatism that I cannot abide this budget. Jack Layton has been scoring points off Mr.Harper by wondering rhetorically why the Conservatives were releasing the NDP budget." John Ivison: Harper government down to its last few principles "Today’s budget will be the final act in a long transformation of Mr. Harper’s Conservative Party from a policy- driven, principled voice for conservatism to a process-driven electoral machine, intent only on surviving the coming budget vote and winning the next election." Will some Conservatives listen to their base? Perhaps they'd rather have sat in opposition where they could condemn the deficit spending, rather than in government where they'll have to defend it. But that ship has sailed. It's their baby now unless they themselves vote it down.

I also remember when he stated: 'I'm for Alberta first, and the rest of Canada a distant second'. I love being a distant second.

Aw, how cute. You called me 'Grandma'. I have two grandsons now but they sure change your perspective on just about everything. However, I think there may still be a bit of a bumpy ride ahead. This isn't going to be easy on anyone. They'll all wear it one way or another. As to Iggys' students. They didn't get into Harvard, Cambridge or Oxford; by being sheep. They are tomorrow's leaders. They expect to be challenged, not preached to. Their professors can't rely on text books, though Iggy wrote many. He'd better know what he's talking about, because they'd never let him get away with it.

I never said they were the main cause, because many things contributed to the fall. However, there are a lot of credible Economists, with PhD's, who blame the Bush tax cuts and 'free market' approach. I posted many links and can find them again if you need them.. Or just google 'Bush tax cuts economic crisis', or some variation. Before Bush the difference in wages for execs were $35.00 to every $1.00 earned by the workers. It is now something like $ 450.00 to every $ 1.00 Too much de-regulation.

So do I. One thing she mentioned that was interesting, so I checked; was that our Constitution doesn't mention the term 'Prime Minister'. He has no protection under our constitution. Weird. Also when you read the history of Canadian PMs they don't say 'elected' Prime Minister, but 'designated' Prime Minister. Only MPs are elected, but I think we already knew that. Also besides the Byng affair, we've have Coaltion Governments before. "The Unionist Party was formed in 1917 by Members of Parliament (MPs) in Canada who supported the "Union government" formed by Sir Robert Borden during World War I....on October 12, 1917, Borden formed the Union government with a Cabinet of twelve Conservatives, nine Liberals and Independents and one "Labour" MP. "

Exactly. Closing our borders now will only cut our own throats. However, is this just the beginning? If you polled the American people and asked do you prefer a 'Made in USA' approach to economic stimulus, or should we try to keep our import levels the same to help other countries; they'd say 'USA'. Afterall, as you mention, it's in everyone's best interest that the US gets turned around as quickly as possible. But in the short term, this could be bad for us.

I think this budget is about more than just provincial discontent. Saskatchewan was upset when they were promised full revenue from resources, clawed back after the election. Alberta doesn't like the auto bailout. I read online papers from across the country, paying close attention to the comments representing public opinion. There is definitely a different feeling nationwide. This was a complete 180. We were told not to worry in the fall and then by winter must brace for an 85 billion deficit. There is much more support for the budget in Ontario than in the West. More support for a Conservative probation period in Ontario than the West. Quebec hates the budget and the Maritimes are divided. This is a tough one to call.

That was definitly a contributing factor, but not the main one. This is a result of the US economic apocalypse, that is being blamed on market free fall and too many tax cuts. And let's not forget all the wars - Iraq, Afghanistan, War on Terror...

Actually I've heard a lot of discussion this morning on this issue. There is no indication that Michael Ignatieff has instructed his party to vote his way or the highway, though I'm sure he would prefer they do. In fact, many people are suggesting that there are also several Conservatives battling with such a large predicted deficit (now 85 billion dollars), when they campaigned so heavily against it. They also don't like the idea of a Liberal imposed probation. MPs must answer to their constituents first, and if they say no, their representative in Ottawa must say no too. Bill Casey took that stand and has been admired for it. I think members of all parties are wrestling with this. Perhaps they'll spend the weekend in their ridings to get a better feel for what they should do. I was looking forward to three months of political calm, but maybe it's not to be. 'Black Monday' on the horizon? Damn.

Was this a Freudian slip? She could probably use a shave.

Welcome. I'm new to the tent too. I started voing NDP when the PC Party became extinct. A new NDP leader, especially if it was Pat Martin, could create a bit of a dilemna, though I think I'm going to stick it out with Ignatieff for awhile.

We all know the only one who really had the power to stop it was Stephen Harper. He could have stuck to his original pre-election promise "I will never allow a deficit. I will not be forced into a deficit'. Keeping his job was more important than keeping his promises.