ReeferMadness

Strategic voting is just a symptom of a broken voting system.

That's awesome. Maybe civilization will collapse but we shouldn't blame it all on Harper. That would make an excellent epitaph. And when India and China have annual per capita emissions that are close to ours, that will be an excellent point. Although, even then, they might want to bring up historical per capita emissions.

If you read he article, it said they were due to be released in 2017. My calendar still says 2015, so maybe that's the reason. And if we waited for it to be cheaper for companies to not emit SOx and NOx, you wouldn't be able to see your hand in front of your face in most cities. And if we waited for it to be cheaper to produce refrigerant without chlorofluorocarbons, you wouldn't be able to step outside without burning to a crisp. Sometimes governments have to step up and make people do the right thing.

I don't know but there are lots of possible answers. The price of natural gas is artificially low due to a supply glut. There is a capital cost in building new plants to there will be some natural inertia that will slow uptake. Electricity producers are usually regulated monopolies so there isn't much incentive for them to aggressively adopt new technologies. Also solar and wind are interruptible and technologies for energy storage are still developing.

If necessary, yes. But I doubt very much that it is. Go and do a little research. I posted a link above that says you can drive an electric car 1,000 miles for $50 worth of aluminum.

Do a bit of basic research on the cost of solar and wind before you say that. I'm tired of posting links only to have the Walking Dead crowd pop up and repeat the same old tired claims over and over again. "IT'LL NEEEVVVERRR WOOOORRRRKKKKK"

You didn't bother to understand it, did you? As usual. It says you can drive 1,000 miles for $50 worth of aluminum plates. Then you pull out the old ones (which are now aluminum oxide) and put in new ones. $50 is a freaking awesome deal for driving 1,000 miles emissions free. Are you worried about the cost of recycling aluminum oxide back to aluminum? Well, it is energy intensive (which is only logical because the energy that drove your car 1,000 miles was obtained by oxidizing aluminum). But how much would it cost? Well, it turns out that aluminum oxide is what you get after you remove the impurities from bauxite ore during the production of aluminum. So, logically, if if the aluminum can be produced for $50, it should cost less than that to turn the aluminum oxide back into aluminum. I don't know what the economics are like but potentially, you could get money back by turning in your oxidized aluminum plates.

Ever seen The Walking Dead? Picture the zombies stumbling through the field chanting "IT'LL NEEVVVEERRR WOOORRRKKKK!!!" That's an apt analogy for what we're up against debating this crowd.

So... you're telling me that that science journals tend to publish the most shocking stories. Which makes it exactly like every other type of news story. I guess you think that's a huge revelation. Here's the thing though. Maybe climate change is not as bad as they think - or maybe it's worse. It's a complex system and nobody knows. So, here's a fair proposal. Until we know for sure what the impact is, let's just stop putting more CO2 into the air. Then, if we find out if huge amounts of CO2 are a huge benefit to the world, like Tim claims, we can have a huge bonfire when we know.

It's no joke. We might think we're OK sitting up here in the north but if the worst case happens, tens of millions of people might decide to join us.

Most of the technology is in place today. Go look at the two technical documents that are referenced by the Leap Manifesto. Most areas can generate wind and solar for about the same price as fossil fuels. The one area that still needs improvement is battery technology; for transportation and grid storage. Even today, though, there is battery technology that could feasibly replace ICE's for most applications. The aluminum air battery has a demonstrated range of 1,000 miles (after which, you recycle the aluminum). They say it will be in cars by 2017. So, this isn't a matter of technical feasibility, it's a matter of motivation and financing. Look at all the wet blankets around this place. It's amazing anyone does anything. Here's how to provide the motivation and financing. Impose a modest carbon tax ($30 per ton) world-wide. Increase it slowly, year over year (say, $2.50 per year). Countries that don't play are referred to the WTO for trade sanctions. This would raise roughly $1 trillion. Before anyone whines that this would bankrupt the world and leave us all living like people in the 1500's I should point out that this is exactly the carbon tax we are paying in BC and nobody notices. Of the carbon tax, countries are allowed to divert up to 5% to clean energy research (to be audited by the international energy agency). Results of all research funded through this mechanism become public domain. Countries are allowed to divert a further 20% to be used to improve energy efficiency within their borders (again, audited by the international energy agency). I expect this would be normally used as a tax credit for capital intensive things like insulation or heat pumps. The remaining funds (at least $750 billion) are returned to countries using a formula based on the average per capita GHG emissions to be used for zero emission energy generation or energy efficiency projects. So, countries with high per capita emissions receive less than what they put in and countries with low per capita emissions receive more. The net effect would be to provide underdeveloped countries with funds to develop clean energy - so this is also a foreign aid plan. The third component of this plan is most important because it will provide the motivation for rich countries to become more efficient. Every time someone fills up their tank, they're going to be thinking that some of that money is being sent to India. And, frankly, there are enough bigots in the world that will buy a smaller car (or an electric car) just to avoid that. People whine about the cost of energy but look at all the pickup trucks driving through cities. And look at the ads for those pickup trucks. More torque!! More horsepower!! This one can haul an elephant! Oh, yeah? This one pulls a house!!! It's all so ridiculous. What we need is people focusing their minds on efficiency and environment, not on horsepower.

Harper likes to brag that emissions have gone down (2%) under his watch. If he's taking credit, here are the things he needs to take credit for: the 2008 recession BC's carbon tax Ontario's decommissioning of coal fired plants Quebec's cap and trade system Seems just a wee bit hypocritical.

And you think those people meant that Harper went around and personally shut down all the other industries?

Yeah. As climate change and ocean acidification cause sea levels to rise, crops to fail, forest fires to burn bigger, fish stocks to decline and floods to become more frequent and severe, we'll pass a hat to make sure that YOUR life doesn't become more expensive. Because, when you fly 80,000 miles a year, we KNOW that CO2 increases have nothing to do with you!

You have a point?

Reviewing the posts, it's not surprising that we're making very little progress on CO2 reduction. Denial. Excuses. Foot dragging. Finger pointing. All the things that happen when people resist change. Harper has made it acceptable for people to resist doing the right thing on climate change; just the same as he has made it acceptable for people to have bigoted views when it comes to Muslims. Let's hope Canadians are wise enough to dump him in a couple weeks.

I agree with him that we can't be sure what will happen if we keep on pumping abnormal amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere. Also, I can't be sure what will happen if I sprint through an area if I had reason to suspect has been a minefield. I wouldn't though, because I'm not an idiot. See how that works?

He believes in the science that keeps big electricity utilities profitable. That's all.

You a mean the economic reality that every market and every political realm in existence is controlled or manipulated by major players who have the most at stake. So, while there is a pressing need for clean, renewable energy, the very thought of it makes executives in a whole myriad of industries (fossil fuels, refining, automotive/heavy duty equipment, and of course your own, electrical utilities) that crap their drawers at the very thought of energy with a marginal cost of zero. So, no wonder you can't bring yourself to believe in science. You have too much at stake.

Luckily, wiser people than you have prevailed through history. With that attitude, we'd still be living in caves beating each other with clubs.

factual??? Do you even have the remotest clue of how science works? Nobody knows for sure what's going to happen in 10 years, much less 100. It might be better than the scientists think. Or it could be far worse. The climate is a complex system. Facts are what has happened. Projections are what might happen. We haven't yet completed the experiment of increasing CO2 in our one and only atmosphere so there are no facts. The idea that we should wait until climate scientists are positive about the models and can predict the weather on the 21st of January 2094 before we do anything is madness. The attitudes on this forum are varying forms of denial. It won't be that bad (how do you know??). We can't do anything about it (in North America, we're barely even trying). We'll figure it out when it happens (How do you "figure out" sea level rise?) As usual, you're wrong. Prudence is anticipating what could go wrong and taking intelligent steps to avoid it. Religion is believing everything will be just fine no matter what we do.

Why do you even bother to make excuses? Why don't you just own it? Just tell us all you don't care if your wasteful lifestyle contributes to a mass die-off in a hundred years. You won't be around. And like smallc says, we'll wait 99 years, 11 months and 29 days and deal with it then!

Hey, that's the attitude! Just don't mind that the human species is too stupid to survive and when the end comes, just crank up the hot tub. Maybe you and Argus can have an 'end times' party.

Yeah. Just hop in your huge SUV and drive home 50 miles from work to relax in your hot tub and contemplate how many people in poor countries will die from climate change and there's not anything that anyone can do. Sad, right?

Which is because energy has been so cheap that nobody cares much about making buildings use energy efficiently.