willy

BD and August, I do live in reality and I know the nuclear family never existed and I now divorce breaks up families at an ever increasing rate. I was vision casting for the ideal. Marriage on the day of the vows represents the ideal. I am all for extending union rights to gays and lesbians, but I do see a value in maintaining symbols in our culture of the ideal even if we fall short all the time. BD, gays and lesbians may be loving people but they can not be a mother and father. Funny that I would buy into something like that. I would agree that it is a Judeo-Christian construct but it has nothing to do with the west or the middle class.

I will open a can of worms here but what the hey. Marriage is a commitment for life long relationship to support one another and the children that result from that relationship. Men and women have the ability to have children and a stable parent relationship is the most beneficial situation to raise kids. Be optimistic and imagine the best situation for raising the next generation. Men and women are different and bring something different to child rearing. Children benefit from these differences. Marriage in its ideal form sets in law the commitment to each other and the fruit (kids) of that relationship. This is not about abusive relationships, divorces and lack of commitment that is a reality. The negative reality needs to be addressed but not by giving up on the ideal. Marriage is about getting as close to the ideal family units. This does not devalue other forms of relationships but only recognized that this stable environment that has influence by both sexes is beneficial for children.

Your man Trudeau spelled it out best. Individual rights over the collective right. Now we call it the charter of rights. Serious, Walmart should meet the labour codes or be punished. But thier are limits and governments should not be able to force a business to maintain operations. If a company would rather shut down than operate that is their choice.

timmy's was bought by an american company many years ago. They are part of the Wendy's org. We will have to outlaw that evil multinational corporation as well. Trudeau, Wallmart does serve the people that is why so many of use buy thing there. If they didn't serve they would go out of business.

Again, what is good about the NDP? Will you ever answer this question? No. You can't because they are bring back in the old hacks that blew it the first time. The new leader is even less capable than the one that got kicked out of office by a land slide. They are not dope dealing. To have influence on attitudes one must appear at least a little credible so enough with the slander. Now if the cleaning is not done you can fire the company responsible and demand better from a new contract. What was the rate of infection every other year and has it increased? No People are waiting to long and that is why they are reforming the system.

You don't have to repeat the junk. You have said it many times and repeating yourself does not make a stronger argument. Context Ceasar. Increased spending in both healthcare and education happened provincially. You are bent on vilifying the Libs so I need not point out what they have done. Wait I will anyway. They restructured into health regions to eliminate much of the duplication of administration and created communities of practice. Communities of practice will increase the quality of care we receive. They increased funding and wages for physicians and nurses (retention of professionals in an international shortage is important). They also continue to look at new delivery methods because the demands on the system grow every year and our resources can not keep up. Education. The enrollment in public schools continues to decrease and funding in real terms has increased. We have more resources being directed at the students. Post secondary they opened up 5000 new spaces this year and transformed Okanogan College into a university. They have expanded the medical schools at UBC and UNBC. They have allowed universities to increase tuition to meet their needs for resources. The student’s benefit form the additional resources. The enrollment demand has continued to increase and our schools are full. The highest grade point average in the history of the province is required to enter university the upcoming year. In the light of this they plan to add 15 000 more spaces in the next 2 years. Again what does the NDP stand for? How much will it cost and who will pay for it? You can slam the government all you want but that does not dismiss the fact they have no credible opposition. Please tell me about this NDP party and why they are so great. Give me a reason to vote for them and not just against the governing party.

I understand where the Libs are going. Caesar please share with us what Carole James and the NDPers are putting out as a plat form. The Libs have slogans but at least they have an agenda they will put out for public scrutiny. The Libs seem to be investing in health and education wouldn't you agree.

In marriage we have husbands and wives. Are men and women not equal because they have different titles? This is just a descriptive of a difference. There is no value associated to the terms they are equal in status. Having two men committing for a life time and receiving benefits is different. If it was not different they would be marring women, which is the prevailing marriage choice. This does not make it worse or unequal but only different. Normal only describes the choice or lifestyle of the majority. What we should be concerned about is that traditional family units have eroded over the last 40 years. There are tangible benefits to having nuclear families, raising kids. Divorce and common law relationships should concern us more than this issue of same sex relationships. Why not just recognize that gays and lesbians deserve the right to have a committed contractual relationships but it should not be termed marriage as that already has a definition that includes husband and wife.

You are right that the Libs would go and end up in debt if they could win majority. Fortunately for the Cons, Quebec is not bouncing back for the Libs and rural Ontario is improving for the Cons. The national numbers are staying the same but there have been shifts. Cons losing support in AB for instance but they are still way ahead. The Cons need to do a little more work in BC as they could loose even more seats here if they are not careful. Reynolds as campaign chair? Don't know yet, he is respected and experienced. Four members of the Conservatives have come out in support of same sex marriage and Harper still supports them. This may help some of the demonization. What will really help is if the Liberals take on the Ontario manufacturing base with implementing Kyoto in the next year. People fear losing there jobs more than they fear the traditional definition of marriage. Right now this is like predicting the next years economy. Way too many variables to guess which ones will resonate with the public when they get in the voters both. For that reason as well I think the Libs will want to continue on for a while.

You have already heard the arguments and you don't agree. Fair enough. This is not a human rights issue. These as you say are the carefully chosen words by the Liberals. It turns out that the support of the Charter and what they define as human rights trumps all. Or not we will see when they vote. The Conservatives have said that all the rights of married couples should be transferred to gays and lesbians who enter civil unions. Not being termed a marriage is the question. For many faith traditions the word marriage has a very specific meaning. That is also enshrined in the constitution. I don't know what a radical gay would be but I think Dona Summers would more likely be the singer of choice. I may be bizarre but don't hate me because you aint me. Bizarre is only in the eye of the beholder.

We as a nation don't decide anything. We have governments, business and bureaucrats that may or may not change based on individual decisions and policy. In the end individuals need to change and not this mass you call nation. My words of pragmatism did not try and refute what may or may not cause weather changes but only to point out your theories have no practical way of changing our behaviour. They only show a problem. I started this thread to point out that the solution for this problem is not likely to be Kyoto because of the political implications for the government of the day. We may need to change but that does not mean we will. Politics should be about enabling such change but it will never be done with such blunt alternatives. i.e. find another job, pay more taxes, we have no revenue for health care or education ect. The balance is always the challenge of governing and in this instance I see the Liberals as bowing to the pressure of other interests.

So you would like to rid us of SUVs and V8's I get it. That has nothing to do with the political practicality for the Liberal minority government to put at risk 1000s of jobs in an area they depend on to stay in power. Pontifications are great and may be true but in politics we have consequences. If they implement Kyoto they will lose the next election. I am a little confused with your logic on trade. We can sell all we want to the US and at the same time our government will put in place both carrots and sticks that encouraging buying from anybody but the US. I see two problems, I really like Nike shoes and my Volvo is actually owned by Ford. The US is also knowen for it protectionist senators who would love an excuse to limit the outsource industries in Canada and tax our exports. One word my friend Pragmatic.

pioneer, give your head a shake. whites is not a community it is a skin colour. For Canada to look after itself we need to be a compassionate country that is also concerned for others. If we can not practice compassion and grace outside our boarders we will not do it in our boarders, our provinces, our towns or in our family. It will not be part of our culture. We are all people regardless of sex, race, geographic birth or even political bent and that fact alone should unite along some common interests.

cgarrett, I get the impression that you think an economy can be centrally planned. This none Kyoto group you talk of included the US. If we don't trade with them we are in big trouble. Not to mention we have a free trade agreement that your suggestions would probably violate. Here is a different challenge for our Liberal government. The car manufactures are lobbing for concessions. Can the government stand up to a political group that represents a constituency they need to stay in power. i.e. southern Ontario. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...Story/Business/

Two little points BD. Democracy is not the point, but rather the moderating of the region. If you think putting a physical divide between the likes of Syria and Iran is not a step forward go figure. I would never suggest this is a fix but it is a big step forward. Democracy for the people of Iraq is a fortunate but was not the point. You think yourself smart so please share with us your non violent intervention that would reduce tyranny and terrorism.

What about Japan and German post ww2? Nothing is overnight, good things aren't easy but they may pull it off. My only concern was they might not pull it off but if they do...... Big democracy in the middle of the middle east, a geographic barrier and a political influence. This could help create the perceptual shift that may reduce the terrorist network. Now that you must say would be good for everyone. I wish them well. Go Bush Go

As Kyoto is implemented our standard of living may be in the balance of meeting targets or paying lip service to the accord. "Imminent institution of greenhouse gas emissions protocol threatens to stall province's business growth, Duke Energy boss warns" Can we have a clean environment, and still afford health care, and education funding? Can we develop our resources and still meet Kyoto's protocol? http://www.businessinvancouver.com/subscri...iber/news01.asp

I would be surprised to see the Liberals go to the polls this year for a different reason. With the new election finance rules that just came in last year the grass roots are having a hard time coming up with the big cheques they use to. They need more time to line the coffers. Corporate donations are limited to $1000.00 a year and with the new auditing process each riding association has extra expectations and resources dedicated to auditing. This is equal in all parties and will impact the readiness or leave them open to more accusations of corruptions if they bend the rules.

http://erg.environics.net/news/default.asp?aID=571 This is a month old but it has regional breakdowns. Until we see a significant difference in Quebec we will not see an election. August, the Conservatives show what looks to be a good bump in Quebec. Any interpertation on the numbers. (not that they are close to winning any seats)

PocketRocket, I am off on holiday's. In the next couple of weeks I will work on my spelling. Thanks for the feedback. TTS, I do not claim to know the will of God. Here is the but, I think Christ was who he said he was.

Did you notice that Susuki has a research and political organization? I guess the chanllenge is to figure our if the research drives the political agenda or if the political agenda drives the research.

PocketRocket, Do you think God is okay with your beliefs? I am a religious person, and God has changed my life. I do submit to the authority of my church and the bible. This is an inconvenience to the lifestyle I once led. It is in human nature to be the center of our own universe, the challenge is to not focus on self but to focus on God and then share his grace and mercy with others. I apologies if my first post was condescending in nature, I regularly don't put enough thought into my posts. But, To state that your beliefs and practices are you own, is not to acknowledge the people and experiences in your life that shaped those beliefs. IMO God can and does play a role in shaping these things, through the bible, believers, and the holly sprit. I might not know his will but he gave me a rule book and a player’s guide.

So then PocketRocket, you know the will of God? You must to have a private religion where you know what is right and the path you should follow. From what you have said I can only assume you only take the parts you like out of religion and at no point challenge the inconvenience of God. If you still associate with Christianity, it is clear that it is not a personal or private religion. If you reject it all for your own perception are you not presupposing your own judgment over that of God. So as a private religion, how is that golden rule working for you? And a follow-up, does it work for others.

Cartman, what did he mean by resources then. They have employees, building, transport, airplanes, media, PR staff, taxing authority, law making ability and jailing authority. Now corporations have regulators, media and shareholders. They do bad things and they get caught and then the stock value goes down and the company goes through layoffs and fires the executive. If they are lucky the company may survive but the people are gone. Example World Com that is now MCI. In government they have a commission. We still have the Liberals.

Name one corporation in Canada that is the size of the Canadian Government. Name one Corporation in Canada that has $180 billion in annual revenue generated within our boarders. Oh they have plenty of resources and they are the largest organization within our boarders.