Wild Bill

Topaz, you continue to amaze me with how you can stretch something to put blame on the Tories. Your own article tells us that it was the Liberals who first signed the deal. We HAD a good deal! We had a deal for the EH-101! That was back in Mulroney's day, for Pete's sake! The Liberals canceled that deal! They made us pay $500 MILLION to do it! Then they went looking for their own helicopter, claiming they would find a better one! Guess what? There wasn't a better one! So they dumbed down the requirements and went with a crappier helicopter. Then the Tories take over. They don't want to REPEAT the Liberal's mistake of paying more cancellation charges! So they try to work with the new company. Topaz, the Tories aren't building these helicopters themselves! The company chosen by the Liberals was obviously a bad choice. They appear to have grievous internal problems and can't deliver on their commitments. What do you think the Tories should have done? What CAN they do? Should Peter McKay fly down their and BEAT the company president with a STICK? The $8 million dollar penalty charge is the ONLY legal stick the Liberals gave us! And if the company can't deliver it is probably got such problems it is going to go bankrupt, in which case we can whistle for any penalty charges! Now you want to blame the Tories! This time, for illogic you have outdone yourself! You would blame the Tories for bad weather, I swear!

Well, who says that EM is modern and productive in the States? When I worked for Westinghouse the Canadian operations were the first to be closed down. Still, that didn't mean that things were growing in the US! It was just that they closed Canadian plants first! Once there were no more plants to sell or close in Canada the same events began to accelerate down south. We should be patient and wait for a few years to see what happens. A large dinosaur can take a long time to die!

Yeah, we did! Never got a chance to vote on it. It wasn't a campaign issue either. The Liberals just rammed it through. I've never quite accepted the new flag. I loved the old one! I had relatives who fought under the old one. I was proud of our British heritage. The new flag always looked too red and kinda lameass to me. Still, for better or worse we're stuck with it now. Whole generations have grown up knowing no other. After I die, who will care anyway?

Oh, I think you're quite correct Waldo when you say that this is a move to force concessions from the Canadian workers. We've seen this before, after all. I just wanted to point out that when you're working for a plant that is a dinosaur and should be shut down anyway a worker doesn't have a lot of clout...

Guyser, maybe from the west coast it looks like that but not here! Your comparison is like looking at only the population of old Toronto, ignoring the other couple of million in the surrounding GTA. Buffalo likely draws 80% of its seats from fans within 40 miles, a figure far higher than you stated! Add in regular fans and buses from Toronto, Hamilton and Niagara Region and they have a much bigger audience than Winnipeg. However, Winnipeg likely has a higher percentage of dedicated fans, which would equal things out.

I had some personal insight into this very plant, Waldo. I sold parts to them throughout the 90's. Frankly, I'm surprised they stayed in business this long! This plant, along with virtually all Westinghouse, General Electric and other "old names" was woefully mired in the past. They were stuck in 1965! They all just kept downsizing and downsizing, shedding employees by retirement and attrition. Their main difficulty is that all of them had smaller or larger portions of their market in the military world, where specifications and quality control methods were left far behind in the dust during the high tech wave of the 80's and 90's. The only reason they lasted as long as they did was because there was a clause in the Defence Agreements that said the companies had to keep some capacity in Canada. So they would give their Canadian branches the older, becoming obsolete stuff. In the 90's when I was there GM was beginning to face hard competition on locomotive engines from China. I would imagine that has increased, not gone away! Even GM's locomotive division had the same problems. Under the same roof they built military vehicles, like the present armoured personnel carriers. Such businesses tended to share the same sort of paperwork and quality control methods, for thinking the long past notion that military specs ensured better quality. With many modern materials, especially electronics, this has long been false! So when you couple old age, obsolescence and general stodginess together it's no wonder people like me that got to see behind the curtain have been expecting them to die off for decades now! Now the American masters are pulling the plug. Quelle Surpriz! This argument reminds me of a similar situation when I worked for what was left of the old Westinghouse Vacuum Tube manufacturing division, in the late 80's. There was only a half dozen or so older employees left, waiting to retire while they re-branded vacuum tubes under the Westinghouse name to sell for replacements. One old timer at the desk beside mine told me one day that what had killed their business was the entry of cheap Japanese vacuum tubes into our market. He went on to say that the company and the union both had petitioned the federal government to put up tariffs on the Japanese product so that Westinghouse could continue to compete. I asked my friend what time frame was he talking about. "Around 1978", he replied. 1978! I was shocked! The entire world had gone solid state in the early 60's! Sales had fallen off because no one was using them anymore! No vacuum tube radios, or tvs, or hifi's! I held my tongue, because I suddenly realized that my older friends had never noticed how the world had changed around them. Pointing it out would have done no good. It only might have offended them. This Electro Motive situation seems exactly the same.

From what I've read, Waldo, I would suggest portion size! It seems to be used as a competitive factor. "Super Size your order for only 25 cents!". It is a method to make the offering look like more "bang for your buck". The problem is obvious. The larger portions encourage overeating, especially when coupled with generations of mothers training their children to "clean your plate". I'm freshly separated after about 25 years of marriage to a woman of Italian culture. She was a fabulous cook but I was struck by how she would refuse to use serving bowls, choosing instead to fill everyone's plate herself. She would always give me more than I wanted and take it as an insult if I didn't finish it. Later she would berate me about my weight! Now I cook for myself. In the last 6 months I've lost 25 pounds, without any actual trying. I simply cook as much as I actually think I want. Also, I've gained a 3 year old, 90 lb German shepherd named Fred. If I find myself full but thinking I should clean my plate Fred is more than glad to help me out!

Not at all! MLW has always been more of a conservative board. Those of other persuasions are merely a vocal minority. Would you not expect a poll on "rubble.com" to favour Jack Layton as best party leader ever?

I remember watching "Billy Jack" movies in the theatre, back in the late 60's/early 70's. Oh those golden Hippy Times! Anyhow, every movie had the same plot, sorta like those today of George Segal. Hippy commune would face violent threats from local redneck townspeople. Billy Jack would beat the crap out of the rednecks and the hippy commune would be saved, to spread their teachings of non-violence! At that time, I was always struck by the fact that I seemed to be the only one in the audience who got the REAL message! Everyone else would cheer for the hippies and their philosophy. Me, I favoured hippy philosophy too but it seemed obvious that if it weren't for Billy Jack and his KungFooeyLooey violence those hippies would have been toast! They would have been dead and gone. No one would have ever heard their pacifist message again! Every generation seems just as blind as mine...

Yeah, those terrorists are all too stupid to ever use an ambulance as cover!

Oh AW, Have you ever got this wrong! Again, please try not to get your feathers ruffled. I'm simply pointing out what I believe to be true. The right and the wrong of it is subject to opinion. I'm just making the claim that it exists in the first place! Again, I speak from the hippy days of my youth. I grant that things may be better now, but I doubt it. Backpacking across Europe was extremely popular when I was a lad. We Canadians wore prominent Canadian flags for one simple reason - Canadians were treated much better than Americans! The attitude against Americans was quite real. Again, I make no claim as to its being justified. It was an actual fact that ordinary citizens, shopkeepers, and whomever one came in contact with treated the young Americans poorly. They also would invariably assume anyone speaking English with a non-British accent must be an American. So the wearing of a Canadian flag was a ticket to much better treatment. In fact, we all had the experience of meeting others with flags on their Demim jackets or backpacks who were actually American! They were just posing as Canadians, to avoid poor treatment. I realize this may be hard for you to believe, especially when you are no doubt far too young to remember those times.

And despite all, BC, one has to recognize that the lineup to get INTO America is always huge, where the lineup to leave is virtually non-existent. I blame much of that on Krispy Kreme doughnuts! You can't get them outside America!

I think we are talking from two different directions here, AW. I'm talking about the existence of certain perceptions. You seem to be saying that we should pay no attention to them, because they are wrong or that people SHOULDN'T hold them! To me, the world is the way it is and it is never a positive thing to simply try to ignore it or tell people the way things OUGHT to be! Anyhow, we have a difference of opinion that we are not likely to resolve. I find it strange to be championing these perceptions, when they have not entirely been my own. I recognize them in my own culture but life has educated me away from them, simply by having the opportunity to meet and talk with many Americans. Perhaps one of the strongest influences was becoming a ham radio operator and talking to so many American radio operators. When you can chat with people all over the world on virtually any day you tend to glean a much better knowledge of the world's geography and people living in different cultures. It's also possible that those popular stereotypes are products of the past more than today, despite Rick Mercer's schtick. Television and media have greatly expanded the ken of the average man or woman, in most countries save perhaps those like North Korea. I may be dated in my opinion, I'm willing to admit, AW. After all, I AM old!

Rick, we have good news and bad news. You're not crazy and paranoid! However, there is someone after you... :lol:

How does that define "abusive"? That he drinks I won't argue with. Frankly, I don't care! As I've said many times, Toronto is a foreign city as far as I'm concerned - just a money pit for the taxpayers in the rest of the province. How do you know I love his politics? Could you specifically cite anything I've ever said? Or is it just that since I occasionally disagree with YOU that you figure you know everything that I must believe? It must be a comfort to know all about everything beforehand...

Do you know for a fact that he's an abusive alcoholic or is it just that because you hate him he must be one?

That's what I thought...

No, just brains, Star! Lots of people lack confidence or preparation. I'm going by what approaches they dreamed up. A high school student council could have done a better job!

As I mentioned early in the thread, msj, although CDs are not as hifi as good vinyl the new BlueRay DVD audio formats are BETTER! Digital has finally caught up with vinyl and exceeded it, after all these years!

Sorry AW. I've got your feathers ruffled and I think we just can't get past that. I agree with you that within your own borders Americans have no need to learn about other countries. Yet you cannot deny that the resentment against "the ugly American" is real, not just in Canada but in many other countries, especially Europe. Why? Because people in these countries don't see Americans in their own country. They see TOURISTS in THEIR country! And because these tourists tend to be much less educated about the country they're visiting than the people in those countries are about the USA, they stand out as an admittedly false example of Americans in general. You see, you are quite right that because America is bigger and stronger it gets more attention. What you may not see so easily is that when you are smaller and weaker you are naturally defensive about it! By being unaware of this, Americans tend to ruffle OTHER countries feathers! I'm surprised that all this seems to both surprise and offend you so much, AW. To me, it has been such an obvious fact all my life as to exact no comment! It's like the sun rising in the east - a fact so mundane as to be unremarked. You folks should count yourselves fortunate, AW. What do you think is the popular conception of Canadians in YOUR country? 350 lb French Canadians on your Florida beaches, wearing thong bathing suits! That's what! You have no right to complain! Remember, despite this misconception we Canadians still love you! We've proved that time and time again in our mutual history, most recently with getting your hostages out of Iran and lately in Gander, NFLD when all the planes were grounded during 9/1/11. We're sorry we sent you Justin Bieber! Honest!

There's some truth to that, AW. I would also agree that no country has a monopoly on ignoramuses. However, there is a difference with the American perspective. As you yourself have said, people worldwide tend to notice the happenings of the more important and bigger nations first. Why would you then not expect that to apply to yourselves, the biggest nation on Earth? One telling trait might simply be the way television news is presented in our two countries. Where I live Canadians have grown up with access to the main American networks out of Buffalo, NY. For years and years one joke has been a staple here about American tv news. You see, the standard Canadian format is to lead with world news, then national and end with local. What we've seen from the American channels is exactly the opposite. Local news was always the priority. So the joke was "This is Irv Weinstein from WKBW-TV in Buffalo, NY! Saddam has nuked Tel Aviv! An asteroid has completely devasted the entire continent of South America! But first...there's been a fire in Tonawanda!" Sometimes we need our friends to help us see our own humorous foibles, since it's impossible to turn around fast enough to see them for ourselves!

I meant no malice, AW. I'm going by a lifetime of direct experience which is shared by almost every Canadian. One of the most popular bits by a comedian is that by Rick Mercer of the CBC, where he will go to some American city and ask Americans in the street about some bogus Canadian issues: "The intent was to satirize perceived American ignorance of Canada and the rest of the world. Examples included: Rick Mercer ran the Talking to Americans interviews persuading Americans to congratulate Canada on legalizing VCRs or adopting the 24-hour day (ex-Iowa Governor Tom Vilsack was fooled by this one). various political controversies involving one or more Canadian provinces. congratulating the Canadian government on building a dome over its "national igloo" (apparently a downsized version of the United States Capitol made out of ice) to protect it from global warming (one of the interview subjects so fooled was former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee, whom Mercer later stated had asked off-camera if this was a "controversial igloo"). changing the words in the Canadian Anthem and asking Americans to sing it. congratulating Canada for officially joining North America. congratulating Canada for moving the capital city from Kingston, Ontario to Toronto (the actual capital is Ottawa, and then-Vice President Al Gore failed to correct Mercer regarding Toronto being the capital). asking university students and professors to sign a petition against the Saskatchewan seal hunt and the Toronto polar bear hunt. asking Americans to condemn Canada's practice of euthanizing senior citizens by setting them adrift on Northern ice floes. asking Americans how many states Canada has (Canada has provinces and territories, not states). Saying that global warming is causing Canada's polar ice caps to melt and break in two, resulting in a bipolar Canada, and that the two polar caps can be joined back together with the use of tugboats. He further asks if America would assist in curing bipolar Canada with the use of tugboats, and that Canada will be using a big tugboat named Theodore. Professors at Columbia, Harvard, Princeton, Berkeley, New York University and Stanford University were consistently fooled by absurdities such as the "Saskatchewan seal hunt". The only Americans who were shown outsmarting Mercer were: a university student who spent her time laughing at him (before finally answering), and a small child who pointed out to his mother, who was also tricked, that Canada had provinces, not states. The most famous segment, aired in 2000, featured Mercer asking then-presidential candidate George W. Bush – who had previously stated that "you can't stump me on world leaders" – for his reaction to an endorsement by Canadian Prime Minister "Jean Poutine". Here's the wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talking_to_Americans There are some hilarious youtube clips if you google "Rick Mercer Talking to Americans"! You can't help but laugh! Virtually every Canadian has such stories to share, AW. You yourself may be an obvious exception but I think from your side of the fence you just don't have the necessary perspective.

Like the old proverb: "Why did you sting me? Now we'll both drown!" "I couldn't help it! I AM a scorpion, after all!"

Gee Rick, you're quite right! That's outrageous that the black gentleman gets such a sentence compared to that "white bread" business executive! Certainly, that black man now has every right to take his 3 year old daughter outside into the cold and abandon her to freeze to death! Thank you for pointing this out! I never would have come up with such reasoning on my own! You can be a cold and righteous fellow sometimes, Rick. Doesn't that little girl's life mean anything to you or is she just a convenient opportunity for you to make some politically correct point?

I dunno, CC. I have an overall respect for what Ford is trying to do politically but I don't know a lot about the man. He is mayor of what to me is a foreign city, after all. I do know that "Marg", or Mary Walsh, has often mixed her politics in to her comedy. I have never cared for comics to do that myself, at least not Walsh's way. If the show is unabashedly advertised as political humour I can enjoy it, or at least not mind. Walsh does it differently. She will sneak her own leftwing prejudices into a general, nonpolitical venue. She implies that her entire audience agrees with her views. That to me seems arrogant and frankly, cheap! It's another one of those things of many on the left that I don't respect. If I knew it was going to be a leftwingers' bash fest I could take it or leave it. Marg takes advantage of a "captive audience". They can't make a choice until they've already been offended. JMHO