Mr Farrius

Hm. What'll happen after the interrogation? Well let's see... First they'll torture Saddam to get the rest of the high-ranking Iraqi operatives. Then they'll probably kill him (hanging, blowing up by a firing squad, torturing to death, one of those). After that, the Iraqis will have a great new leader and a great government set up directly by the United States.

Evidently the families of GIs killed are not. Has your one-sided brain thought of that one? I do not know if you are a woman, or a man, young or old, but don't tell me you're going to support a war that requires a close, loved one to be killed.

I am sure that President Bush is extremely happy to fulfill what his father could not. Don't get me wrong, the tyrant must be brought down to justice. Bush however, seemed unusually happy, probably because he completed his father's mission. Now, American troops have suffered long for Bush's little vendetta and it's time they come home.

i.e. ignorance. Pardon me Rb, I really do not know where you get your definition of religion from. But then again, it appears that you don't practice one, so your opinion really can't be counted. Religion is actually a lifestyle for your information, and those who actually practice one would say the same. As for your comments on "the sciences," I have stated many times already that total knowledge of science is infinite and thus cannot be considered "a truth in all absolutes." How can you trust to something that isn't fully understood? Science, is not fully understood, and never will be. Thus it cannot take total precedence over religion. That is a slight misconception. Christians tend to thank God for prosperity because we believe anything good that can happen in this wretched world is worthy of thanks. We however, do not blame God for our misfortuntes. We do realize that we as mortal beings, have weaknesses and therefore have to appeal to God for strength. That is the very essence of religion- the need for a divine, supernatural being to guide us in our lives. And what, if I may be allowed to ask, comes after life in your definition of it? Do you really believe that humans exist for the sake of achieving as much as possible before death? What then, is the purpose of life? To learn? To succeed? To prosper? To be educated? All gone after death. How trivial is that. That, truly is a muted sense of purpose. Why live at all, if those are purposes for living? See, this is why I cannot fathom the idea that there is no supernatural being. There is a reason for everything. The reason that humans exist is not to die without meaning.

Actually it has, though your definition of tangible is ambiguous. Believe it or not, miracles happened in the past, and still happen today. A terminally ill-patient with a month to live would all of a sudden mysteriously get better. A pastor in a car on the highway would to avoid an accident, suddenly swerve, his car flip over many times, and come out with merely scratch, rescue teams in disbelief. People would pray and pray, and their prayers would always be answered. Now all of this doesn't seem possible does it? Well they have happened. How do you explain this incontrovertible phenomenal occurences? The laws in this universe crafted by man does not explain any of this. A physicist, a biologist, or a theorist cannot explain any of this. How are these things possible, yet so seemingly impossible (to the human mind of course)? There are still numerous mysteries out there, such as biological processes, physics, the galaxy around us. Mankind does not comprehend all of these things. So how can they comprehend the idea of a supernatural being who made all of the above possible? They can't. As a result, they have been forced to make assumptions based only on what they understand and have learned so far. To put it in another light, mankind cannot force themselves to realize what they themselves have not been capable to achieve. The concept of reasoning and logic applied to a supernatural existence is faulty at best because the human mind will never come to the point where they understand even secular things. Like Elder said, God most likely made it this way so there are those who believe, and those who stubbornly resist because their petty logic does not allow them to comprehend such an idea. It's actually pretty wise if you think about it. God wants true believers, not arrogant men and their intelligence.

Once again, to apply what seems reasonable and "logical" to religion is futile. The very reason why people believe and have faith in a supernatural being and miraculous feats, is the very fact that this being is supernatural and can thus perform what appears to the human eye as impossible. I do not understand why the limitations in this universe based solely on human understand should dictate what is possible and what is not. I disagree. The fact that a Messiah in actual human form came down to Earth to die for mankind is the most important element of Christianity and its beliefs. Also I do not understand what you mean in saying that what occured during his existence is the more important issue. Is not what occured during his existence innately a result and product of his actual existence? We cannot examine the impact that Jesus had on believers without arguing whether He really existed, because His existence itself was an impact.

If we keep arguing about the credibility of the Bible, we are going to get nowhere. Credibility has little relevance when it comes to the Bible because the Bible is based on one's faith that it was the Word of God bestowed onto man as a daily guide to salvation and life. The possibility that a group of people got together to make up a story and even risked their lives for their beliefs is highly unlikely. But insisting that the Bible is credible without proving why also gets us nowhere. Again I repeat, the proof lies in the visible fact of people's lives changing when they encounter Christ and the Bible.

Mr. Read, I would love to know how Bible stories have changed over time. Examples, examples. I would also love an example of a story that seems incoherent as you have yet to provide even one Bible story that seemed as such.

I agree that without the United States, the UN would have no real enforcer, and an alliance of powerless nations. However, it was the United States that proposed the initiation of an international peace-keeping organization and must therefore take responsibility in remaining a member. It cannot, like you said, keep "the world from the brink of destruction on numerous occasions" and pull out of an international peace-keeping organization. One thing I don't understand is if the UN's existence is pointless, why did Bush keep calling for its help in the war? Is that not indicative of U.S. need for UN cooperation? So, if the United States left the United Nations, would it be willing to deal with these problems by itself?

Maybe it's not the UN. Maybe it's a bunch of nations who happen to be members that are anti-Semitic and who keep voting in ways that may be construed as anti-Semitic. Without the UN, the world would be full of chaos because it was made to keep the peace and when it's gone, the peace is as well.

Derek, Mr. Read is right in the sense that from a logical standpoint, Jesus or the Bible doesn't make sense. If Christians, or even those of any other religion try to argue itself in that manner, they will most likely lose every single time. What Mr. Read can't argue however is the fact that people's lives change through the Bible and through Jesus. There are countless numbers of incontrovertible testimonies out there revealing that Jesus Christ did exist, and still exists today. There are even those who have been exposed to the Bible and have become totally different people, continuing to use the Bible as a guide to life and its issues. People can argue on and on about the Bible from a logical perspective, but their attempts are made insignificant, because Jesus is real and the lives of people show accordingly. And no abstraction or feeling can do such a thing. Let those continue to argue that Jesus doesn't exist flail around in their stubbornness and their petty logic, as everyday more and more people's lives change into something they've never experienced before.

Mr. Read, I highly doubt that you have read the entire Bible, nor have you understood everything in it adequately in context. As a result, you further expose your ignorance and lack of credibility. Please do not ever make such claims anymore unless you have read the entire Bible and understood it as a Christian would. I disagree, that is probably one of the most important of all.

Like I said, Bush's motive in doing this is extremely questionable and skeptical. Regardless, the action itself encouraged the troops, which can only be good.

I believe that the fact that Bush took time to visit the troops on Thanksgiving was admirable and the sign of a leader, (though many presidents in the past had done the same) and extremely conducive to boosting the morale of the troops. That he did so, I do not protest. I question his motive, not his action.

It's just so funny how there's a Biblical verse undermining all of your claims. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things -- and the things that are not -- to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord." -1 Corinthians 1

Same-sex marriage is wrong. It should be prohibited. It is disgusting, biologically wrong, and morally wrong. Allowing same-sex marriage opens up the door for more atrocities within society.

Bush stayed for only 2 hours due to security reasons. Which means two things. The first one shows Bush's desperation. He knows that he's screwing up domestically, wasting money on useless programs. So he has decided to appeal to the troops. He knows he's screwing up the job in Iraq and like you said, his polls are going down. Which ties in to the second thing: Iraq is not secure. If Iraq was secure, Bush would have definitely stayed a bit longer. Unfortunately the security situation in Iraq is a load of crap right now and Bush, knowing it, wanted to get his ass out of there as soon as he could tell the entire nation of his surprise 2 hr party. Re-election? I highly doubt it.

Your endless accusations of bad sources are getting disgusting. But then again, why am I surprised. It appears that you're the one that needs a dose of reality. You seem to have the notion that unless a web address ends with a .gov or .proudtobeamerican or .rightturnonred it cannot be believed. At all. None of it! What confuses me is why. Why can't something be credible if it is from the opposition? Such blatant, stubborn resistance is for fools. Let me tell you something. You just keep on fooling yourself. You poor ignorant sap. Do you really think that any of your "credible" sources is going to expose the atrocities of the American government? Do you honestly believe that the American government is perfect in its foreign policy? Do you believe that its motives are purely for the sake of its people? Do you not believe that in such a powerful nation, corruption and egregious acts can emerge from its government? I wonder why so many nations hate the U.S. Regardless, you go on thinking that your country is perfect and incapable of doing any wrong. If you cannot fathom such, what you call "assusations" against the U.S., then you are a fool. That goes for all the right-wingers on this forum.

Why not, though of course I know you right-wingers are going to find some clever way to fight facts and history. You always do, so though my attempts are futile, and you are bound to argue me down fact to fact, here it goes: 1948-present U.S. has "manufactured consent" since for its support of Israel, to the exclusion of virtually any rights for the Palestinians in their native lands resulting in ever worsening day-to-day conditions for the people of Palestine. Hundreds of towns and villages were literally wiped off the face of the earth in the early days of Israeli colonization. In 1982 the villagers of Sabra and Shatila were massacred by Israeli allies with direct Israeli complicity and direction. 1980s Israel, with US backing, inflicts terror on Lebanon, resulting in the deaths of tens of thousand of people. 1991 US undeclared war on Iraq killing 200,000 people, including U.S. pilots literally shot in the back retreating Iraqi civilians and soldiers. 1989 U.S. invaded Panama over the Christmas season and killed over 8,000 in an attempt to capture George H. Bush's CIA partner, now turned enemy, Manual Noriega. 1980s U. S. war against the people of El Salvador in the 1980s, which resulted in the brutal deaths of over 80,000 people, or "soft targets". 1980s U.S. attacked and bombed with impunity the nation of Libya, including killing the infant daughter of Khadafi. 1952-1979 Shah of Iran was installed in a U.S. sponsored brutal coup that resulted in the deaths of over 70,000 Iranians from. 1979 Ayatollah Khomani, who overthrew the Shah, and who was the U.S. public enemy for decade of the 1980s, was also on the CIA payroll, while he was in exile in Paris in the 1970s. 1954-1975 U.S. assault on Indochina, especially Vietnam, where over 4,000,000 people were bombed, napalmed, crushed, shot and individually "hands on" murdered in the "Phoenix Program" (this is where Oliver North got his start). Many U.S. Vietnam veterans were also victimized by this war and had the best of intentions, but the policy makers themselves knew the criminality of their actions and policies as revealed in their own words in "The Pentagon Papers," released by Daniel Ellsberg of the RAND Corporation. In 1974 Ellsberg noted that our Presidents from Truman to Nixon continually lied to the U.S. public about the purpose and conduct of the war. 1973 U.S. sponsored a coup in Chile against the democratic government of Salvador Allende and helped to murder another 30,000 people, including U.S. citizens. 1973 U.S. sponsored terrorist contra war (the World Court declared the U.S. government a war criminal in 1984 for the mining of the harbors) against Nicaragua in the 1980s which resulted in the deaths of over 30,000 innocent people (or as the U.S. government used to call them before the term "collateral damage" was invented--"soft targets"). 1970- present U.S. sponsored terror war against the peoples of southern Africa (especially Angola) that continues to this day and has resulted in the deaths and mutilations of over 1,000,000. 1965 U.S. overthrew the governments of the Dominican Republic and helped to murder 3,000 people. 1965 U.S. sponsored a coup in Indonesia that resulted in the murder of over 800,000 people, and the subsequent slaughter in 1975 of over 250,000 innocent people in East Timor by the Indonesian regime with the direct complicity of President Ford and Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. 1954 US undeclared war on Guatemala resulted in the deaths of over 120,000 Guatemalan peasants by U.S. installed dictatorships over the course of four decades. U.S. military and CIA actions in Somalia, Haiti, Afghanistan, Sudan, Brazil, Argentina, and Yugoslavia have resulted in deaths running into the hundreds of thousands. http://www.incite-national.org/issues/usterrorism.html Or will you counter me saying that the source is screwed up? Or will you counter by providing examples of other nations that have inflicted more egregious acts on mankind? PolPot? Stalin? Hitler? Anyways, this is history. For the last time I'll tell you right-wingers. You cannot argue with history. If you look at these atrocities historically, you can tell why terrorists exist around the world. For the sake of defense.

Mr Read, I can't believe some of the nations you posted as benefited under honest and purely unselfish U.S. intentions. For instance, South Korea?? Give me a break. Have you ever of heard of a term called geostrategic advantage? Without American presence in South Korea, it's position in the Korean peninsula is perilous against the North. That's just one example.

I can't believe you're speaking for the world. Most of the world could care less about human rights! Except that it does. It is connected physically to the mother's body.

Wow. Really? Tell me in one instance where the U.S. did not free any nation that it did not benefit in doing so.

It is hypocrisy to complain about current affairs that resulted from something you did in the past.

That's irrelevant. Great. I applaud that decision. The Bible was not direct from the mouth of God. It is believed that its writers were divinely inspired. As for your 2nd assertion, I'm assuming you mean Catholics. Otherwise, show me the proof. I speak not upon the religious leaders who followed Paul because at that time, Christianity was in its very original form (like it's supposed to be) and definitely not in a Catholic one. Ever since Constantine and all these Roman emperors started taking power over the Church, and declaring themselves with the authority to change the Bible, things started to change. As for my proof of the way the Bible has been changed, I believe I have already posted a link exposing the contrasts. It surprises me that you say this without knowing the history yourself. At several points in history, the pope had power to dictate even secular affairs such as politics, and was even more powerful than the kings.

Not really. Hypocrisy is based on history. If you're asking me to disregard history then not only my post, but a large chunk of the threads on this forum are pointless. What kind of idiot expects people to disregard past actions at his convenience??