carepov

Agree to disagree... Was the war in Vietnam an error? Was the Iraq invasion of 2003 an error?

You are right, you could write volumes to describe the evils of any empire, including the American. However, you could also write volumes about American led positive deeds. In many cases, American actions were unprecedentedly good. -For example, how many empires would rebuild a country like Japan, hand power back so quickly, and allow them to become the #2 economic power? -As I mentioned, the very lens by which we are judging the West (International Law, UDHR, the UN itself...) would not exist without US leadership. -The openness and tolerance of the US Government to criticism (internal and external) is also IMO unprecedented.

In your opinion, has the US Government made any errors?

While I reject Omar Chomsky's notions that the US led West is the most evil empire ever, you must admit we did some evil ***, including terrorizing civilian populations. Military and political leaders - no matter what their nationality - do not rise to the top through honesty. You give these leaders the "benefit of the doubt"? Now that's what I call naive!

You do not need 20/20 vision, heck even a blind person could see that on August 8, 1945 a second A-bomb was not necessary, and especially not necessary on a populated area. This was a clear error. The West has made plenty of them. Well, nobody except for the Russians, Chinese, Spanish, Germans, Italians, Japanese, Arabs, Turks....

Some people however remind me of me when I first heard of Chomsky, Zinn, etc... while I was at university. Tim, we were all naive at one time, and many of us were idealistic in our youth. hmmm... Wouldn't the term naive hypocrite be an oxymoron? Are you sure the fact that Japan and Germany's resources were depleted was not the primary reason for the end of WWII? The Allies certainly could have won the war with less collateral damage. More importantly, what could have been done to prevent the wars? In Europe at least, I might argue that there was no actual WWI and WWII, just one Great War with a cease-fire.

Just to be 100 % clear, the US government, and its western allies, have committed inexcusable war crimes and I do not want you to have the impression that I am justifying or appeasing. Most notable to me (1939-2015) are: -Fire-bombing of Tokyo. Arguably, dropping the first A-bomb on a city but definitely, dropping a second A-bomb -Dresden -Vietnam -Latin America in the 70's and 80's -2003 Iraq War Some of the recent historical context includes: -~100 million casualties in the "Great Wars" -The Korean War -Soviet Gulags and other war crimes -The Cultural Revolution -The War Crimes of Saddam Hussein (yes I know he was at one time supported by the US) It is fine to be a little idealistic. Yes it would be great is the West fully respected international laws, human rights and stopped their blatant hypocrisy. On the other hand, one needs to be realistic. Real progress is being made! I would argue that without the West there would be no international laws nor UDHR.

There are plenty of people that talk about it, like Chomsky. Most people don't care; life is generally good and busy. Sports, entertainment and gossip are more interesting. Some people accept the criticism, however they put historical events in context. Has there ever been an empire with less blood on their hands than the US? Also, it is important to recognize progress, many argue that today (1945-2015) it the most peaceful non-violent time ever.

I feel the same as you but can imagine situations where it would be advantageous to be gay. For example, if I had a passion for sailing and wanted to be in the navy...

Sure, parents are the most important factor, but there's more. How do kids succeed despite incompetent/apathetic parents? Why do some kids with great parents fail? The Finish school system is a great model for the rest of the world. It shares many of the philosophies of most homeschoolers: -Kids don't start school until they are 7. 0-6 is 100 % play time -Less testing -Less schoolwork/classtime and more play time, especially outside -Less homework -Teachers are given more freedom -PBL is very common in homeschooling (unit studies)

Bill Gates, like Patrick Moore, is also a big supporter of Golden Rice: http://www.gatesfoundation.org/what-we-do/global-development/agricultural-development/golden-rice

Yes Patrick Moore made a boo boo. Who hasn't? I have great respect for David Suzuki and he has made quite a few whoppers over the years... This is a bit long, 16 minutes, but it is really hilarious. It is all good and relevant but if you are in a hurry go to 12 minutes when he talks about Monsanto. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulq0NW1sTcI

Except in the controlled study where both groups had the luxury: "And if the recruitment process selected for homeschoolers with high skill levels, we can say the same about public school students. Both groups--structured homeschoolers and public schoolers--consisted of volunteers. Both tested well above grade level." I share your views regarding tests that are not apples-to-apples and I agree that homeschooling, like anything else, has to be done right to work. Had you started with the above instead of the below we probably would have avoided this exchange. "Pretty much every other impartial test suggests that most homeschoolers are not getting the best education , and plenty of the parents refuse to have their kids tested."

Do you have any data that suggest that, on average, homeschoolers are getting an inferior education to non-homeschoolers? The study provided by Guyser did attempt to controland adjust for those factors, expanding on my preious quote: Overall, the structured homeschooling group performed much better than the public school group. And the margin was pretty dramatic. In 5 of 7 test areas, (word identification, phonic decoding, science, social science, humanities) structured homeschoolers were at least one grade level ahead of public schoolers. They were almost half a year ahead in math, and slightly, but not significantly, advanced in reading comprehension. But this is a relatively small study. Was the homeschool advantage due to random factors? It's unlikely. Researchers calculated the probabilities of getting these results due to random chance alone. For science and calculation, these probabilities were 1.9% and 2.6%. For word identification, decoding, and social science, the probabilities were all below 0.07%. Was the homeschool advantage merely the result of socioeconomic privilege? That seems rather unlikely too. Homeschoolers retained their edge even after researchers made statistical adjustments for differences in family income and mother’s education level. And if the recruitment process selected for homeschoolers with high skill levels, we can say the same about public school students. Both groups--structured homeschoolers and public schoolers--consisted of volunteers. Both tested well above grade level. So the implications seem clear: Canadian kids receiving structured home schooling are testing very well, and it's not merely a reflection of their parents' affluence or educational levels. http://www.parentingscience.com/homeschooling-outcomes.html

I still disagree that a majority of US homeschoolers are crazies because not all evangelicals are "crazies", but leaving that aside: it is unfair to at least 1,000,000 North American homeschoolers to be tagged/smeared with a reputations and beliefs that you so vehemently espoused in the first post I responded to. Scorn and ridicule such as yours are counter-productive to improving education and society. Thankfully messages like yours are being refuted and more families are reaping the rewards of homeschooling, like these ones: http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/02/the-rise-of-homeschooling-among-black-families/385543/ Yes, in some studies, including the HSLDA study, homeschooling scores are overestimated since they did not control for socio-economic factors. Guyser2 is claiming more than that though: "Pretty much every other impartial test suggests that most homeschoolers are not getting the best education , and plenty of the parents refuse to have their kids tested." The only study he did provide, that did attempt to control for socio-economic factors, concluded the opposite of his own claim: "Overall, the structured homeschooling group performed much better than the public school group. And the margin was pretty dramatic. In 5 of 7 test areas, (word identification, phonic decoding, science, social science, humanities) structured homeschoolers were at least one grade level ahead of public schoolers."

There are plenty of crazies in the US and a few in Canada and some do homeschool. Overall the 2.2 million North American homeschoolers are very diverse. Yes I did challenge the way that you stereotyped all homeschoolers with those crazy beliefs. It is similar to people stereotyping Muslims as misogynist, and supporting of terrorism and Sharia Law. Yes, this seems obvious. I wonder if Guyser2 will recognize his earlier misjudgements?

A sample size of 37. Really? So four mom's had graduate degrees compared to eleven, and this is supposed to be significant? Try again. What is significant is that a greater percentage of homeshcoolers attend university and top universities are recruiting homeshcoolers

I did, and I am surprised that you would disagree that creationists are simple-minded. The more education one has the less likely one is to be creationist. On average homeschoolers have more education than public schoolers. Agreed. Wrong. Only 16 % of US homeschooling parents surveyed in 2011-2012 cited religious reasons as their main reason for homeschooling. Of these there are certainly some crazies but not all. These numbers are going down over time and I am sure the percentage of homeschooling crazies in Canada is much lower yet.

Yes, for sure some do: http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/03/old-earth-young-minds-evangelical-homeschoolers-embrace-evolution/273844/ IMO, the vast majority do.

If you are right that these simple-minded people are homeschooling, how do you explain the fact that homeschoolers significantly outperform the general population academically. Also working against your thesis is the fact that homschooling parents tend to be more educated than parents that choose public schools.

I agree with you and the author that this type of education (fundamental, biblically literalist, factually wrong) is detrimental. IMO the suggestion that 75-90% of US homeschoolers follow this type of education is ludicrous. At most, I would expect that the 16 % of parents in the US that choose homeschooling primarily for religious reasons would be such extremists.

You are espousing the same myth. Homeschoolers are not isolated. This is supported by the fact that, homeschooled adults are more involved in the community, they out-vote, out-protest and frankly out-socialize the general population. On average, homeschoolers have MORE socialization diversity than school kids that tend to stick with a clique made up of kids their own age. Never mind all the kids in public schools that do not fit the mould and become loners. Here is another article supporting my views: http://www.todaysparent.com/kids/school-age/the-new-home-schooling/

They play, work and grow in group situations. Human being are social animals that want to socialize. It is natural. You simply enable socialization, there is no need to force it. How did homo sapiens socialize for 199,800 years before public schools became widespread?

So, by your logic, a "desire to provide religious instuction" is an important factor in deciding to homeschool in 64+16= 80 % of parents. Therefore, "A concern about environment at other schools" is an important factor for 91+25=116 % of parents.

I am also an advocate for the public school system and - for most families - (probably well over 90%) public schooling is superior to homeschooling. For some families homeshcooling is vastly superior to public schools. There is a widespread misconception about homeschoolers being socially awkward or less socialized than non-homeschoolers. I don't think so, in fact I believe that the opposite is true, here's why: -I have searched but seen to data/studies to support the claim that homeschoolers are more socially awkward (if you or anyone has links please share) -As per my above link, based on a survey of 7,300 adults that were homeschooled: "homeschooling produces successful adults who are actively involved in their communities and who continue to value education for themselves and their children" https://www.hslda.org/research/ray2003/HomeschoolingGrowsUp.pdf -Don't forget, there are plenty of socially awkward people coming out of public schools -It is a misconception/myth that homeschoolers are isolated. Are kids isolated during summer holidays? Do young adults all of a sudden become isolated once they graduate? -Public school kids have more interactions with kids their own age. They do learn social skills but also likely develop negative social behaviours. -On average, homeschoolers have more interactions with kids and adults of different ages and live more in "the real world" as opposed to the "school bubble". -Homeschoolers have more time to discover themselves as individuals and therefore are self-confident/non-conformist, pre-requisites for creativity and social skills.