blueblood

Then why does the Ontario wheat board exist, the CWB does not have a monopoly over all Canadian grain, therefore Canadian grain is in a dual market situation. Hypothetically a person could own land in Western Canada and be in cahoots with a family member in Thunder Bay. He can figure out the best price either open market or CWB. If it's economically feasible to truck grain to T Bay, there is little stopping the farmer from doing so.

I'm not confused, Canada has a dual market. Canada exports grains through the board and not through the board. Ontario does have a marketing board. Link What's good for Ontario should be good for Western Canada.

Hmm, must have been out for a sec. But one story vs. almost an entire day of oil scare and prices. Oil is a bigger concern than an apparent food shortage. Consumers will react the same way as sky high oil prices. Consumers would be just as outraged as having sky high oil prices and finding out that we have a vast stockpile of waste grain that could be turned into fuel which would save money at the pumps, you said it saves 20 - 35 cents in the U.S. If you think that grain farmers have not been growing crops for the last 20 years, that is wrong. Farmers have been growing vast amounts of grain and burning vast amounts of diesel fuel for the last 20 years, no matter who buys it is not going to change that. If you don't mind putting plant workers out of work, devaluing one of our major exports, and higher fuel prices go ahead and lobby him. No politician is crazy enough to risk putting the food supply of his country at risk. Even GW. Unless the world substansially decreases it's hunger for energy, ethanol won't go away.

Watched CNN all day today, no food crisis, really hammering out the price of oil and the energy crunch. If there was a food crisis, it would be hammered out all day on CNN, it is not. That tells us we have a secure food supply and can use overproduction to make ethanol. The Republicans are also wanting to drill off the east coast and ANWAR. That's their plan to solve the high cost of energy in the states. Most ag economists are confident that ethanol is not going anywhere, there is too much money to be passed up in it. 7 barrels to produce 8 of ethanol is a savings, and if they put the Dried distillers grains in coal power plants, the savings is even more, then use the stalks/stems even more savings. It's bad for the environment as well to just grow grain industrially and let it rot like we've been doing during the late nineties and early part of this decade. If your beating the band about growing just food and saving the poor, lobby a liberal MP to get a subsidy in place so we can do that. Your position on agriculture is all over the place.

A Thunder Bay farmer can load up his super B and haul a load of wheat to Minneapolis, I try that and I go to jail. How is that not a dual market. Canada is a dual market. It's not dreaming it's logic, why do the Easterners not have to go through the board? If what you are saying about Countervailing penalties is true, then we'd be paying them already because Easterners can ship grain over the border. The Dual market is here and it exists. They don't because that would be a violation of NAFTA.

Two stories is not a crisis. Every day they talk about high energy prices to the point where Iraq is hardly an issue. The "problem" with the plant from Ontario is that it needs the ethanol plant to process the grain first to turn it into waste. Still comes off the field and now more energy made. If the U.S. gov't is saying that fuel is 20-35 cents cheaper, how the heck does it use more oil to produce then? If it used more, logic says that gas should be more expensive.

Wrong Canada has a dual market system. A farmer in Thunder Bay is laughing. He has no CWB pool and no rail costs. He exports his grain on the same barge as the Western people do. So do the producers from Southern Ontario. Canada has both an open market and a single desk. Even the Ontario farmers have a marketing board they can join. The WTO is going to take trade action on Canadian grain in the middle of an oil and food crunch when Canada is one of the largest exporters. Fine, let them and watch the prices rise more to pay for their penalties. It was a straight forward poll, No board, monopoly, or have the board compete in an open market.

We had that already, it was called the plebiscite and most want a dual market, second place the board, third place completely open market. Canada already has a dual market, Ontario Farmers, Quebec Farmers, and eastward can export their grain without the wheat board. Most Westerners want that option. They like the CWB for accountability, and the open market for competition. The CWB is preparing for this in the fact that they are paying premiums to farmers to store their sold grain until the moment of export. Expect to see lots of bins pop up on the prairies.

That link didn't work, for crap sakes. Here's the skinny; In an Ontario plant they are planning to use dried distillers grains which is waste product from ethanol to be used in coal fired plants instead of coal. The reduction in oil consumption is where you pointed out that gas is 20-35 cents cheaper in the states with ethanol. By your logic why should farmers pay sky high property taxes to make doctors and university profs rich? And with incoming daycare, daycare centre owners rich? Farmers aren't actually the primary benefactor of the subsidies, it is the ethanol companies, who like daycare centres need the subsidies to start up business; we just benefit from them with higher grain prices, which in turn benefits the whole ag biz chain which is Canada's third largest employer, thus benefitting the economy, plus helps out rural Canada in the process. I watch quite a bit of CNN which I consider fairly mainstream U.S., and they don't talk about the food vs. fuel. They talk about rising energy costs making things more expensive.

And appoint free market directors. This is all over the Western Producer. Support for the Board is solid, but has declined. It's at around 40% monopoly and 52% open market. Ritz is for the dual market, and passed a bill saying that only actual producers can vote in CWB elections.

So I take it diesel isn't included then, I see. A lot of promises go up in smoke, The GST cut in 93 and income trusts in 06.

Yes reducing oil consumption is bad for the environment, you said it yourself gas in the states is 20-35 cents cheaper. Farmers have been told to solve their own ag income crisis that went on a few years ago, well we have a right to say where our tax dollars go, we have exercised that right, and we have fixed that problem. Had we had help from urban areas back then ethanol might not exist today. On that note, when the Liberals get into office, they will (might) implement their daycare plan. I don't believe it's necessary and I believe it is a bad idea, and I don't want my tax dollars going to something that people can start up themselves without subsidies, after all demand for daycare is sky high; sound familiar? Daycare is in the same boat as ethanol. How about farmers pull the plug on their vast sums of increased value of property tax going to the provincial government. We pay taxes, we want our tax dollars to work for us too. Ethanol companies have every right to buy grain, they are part of the market and improve it. Who gets my grain, the person who pays or who doesn't? Why should I operate at a loss so you can have cheap food? Major companies also support the ethanol plan, ADM comes to mind, Cargill, Monsanto. High commodity prices are bad for the economy? Take a look at our dollar and take a drive out to Sask, NFLD, Alberta, and Western Manitoba. John McCain is full of it as Barack Obama was concerning NAFTA, he'd have to answer for cutting jobs when the economy is hurting. Also have to answer for higher gas prices when they could be lower. Higher energy prices are a bigger concern in the U.S. than "fuel for food". Link Ethanol continues to get better and better. The only way urban Canadians are going to get cheap food and cheap energy is if they go to China and India and somehow convince the people there that they have to go back to living in squalor so that Urban Canadians can live like kings. Canada is doing the smart thing and cashing in on this. The amish people also don't go to the grocery store or use energy. Don't like high prices, that's the alternative.

You forgot about the declassified document about the cabinet plan concerning the CWB, I think you would take interest in it.

If my logic serves me, what I get out of this tax is a fast track to inflation. Goods will cost a lot more money due to significantly higher transport costs as most goods are transported with diesel fuel. The governments also benefit again with higher sales taxes earned on the higher priced goods. I'm curious as to see how this will apply to the biofuel program. Getting taxed to make something that helps the environment and reduces oil consumption reeks of hypocrisy.

Does this tax include diesel fuel???

Your attacking public funding of things you don't like. You don't want to use public funds to guarantee a supply of cheap food years ago and now you don't want public funds to support industries. We're in the same boat as we want public funds going to some things and not others. People have been starving for years. A land set aside program would cause people to starve, so do incredibly low prices in the 90's and early part of this decade causing farmers to let their land go, seed it to hay (beef to expensive for 3rd world), or growing trees instead of food. Then there's industrial crops, should hemp and canola and flax not be grown? They needed the low rates to get the industry going in the first place. Hard to attract business when it costs a lot of money to do business. Ireland knows this strategy real well. How am I forcing you to buy my product, am I going to go to your house and trash your garden if you wanted to grow your own vegetables. Am I going to take a bat to your knees so you can't shoot a moose or go fishing? Am I going to burn your house down if you popped up a windmill and used solar power all over? Would I throw your bicycle in the lake? You'd be fine with farmers getting paid a wage, I wouldn't mind that too, but who's going to pay that wage? I don't get a wage, I get paid for what I sell. In the early part of this decade farmers weren't getting paid fairly; demand was high and prices were low due to European subsidies. In Canada the farmer has to make money or nothing gets grown, there are two ways this was going to happen; production gets cut and less grain gets sent out rising prices to profitability and poor people end up paying more, or ethanol plants come in and offer an alternative market, overproduction gets used up, prices rice to profitability, jobs are created, and it helps the environment, and yes poor people end up paying more. We have tried the way you support in the 90's and early part of this decade and it is unsustainable and doesn't benefit anyone, time for a change. Canada is the 5th largest grain exporter of the world and was going out of business due to the U.S. and E.U. Imagine what that would do to food prices if Canada went out of business. Ethanol is a no-brainer.

When GM first opened its plant and people wanted GM vehicles, they created lots of jobs. There's nothing wrong with that when the option is starvation. In Ireland, they used that philosophy and unemployment became so low, that the corporations were forced to pay higher wages in order to keep the skilled workers.

Of course corporations care about their workers, if their workers don't get compensated "fairly" for their labour they can tell the corporation to go piss up a rope. Employees for Monsanto and Bayer crop science have very cushy jobs, and no unions. They get company trucks, cell phones, and expense accounts, health insurance, and a healthy wage all without unions. They know a happy worker is a productive worker. Mind you these corporations can easily afford to do all of this, but in a skilled labour market like Canada, they have to dole out the cash. The workers also know that if they don't perform and cost their company too much money, they are toast.

I'll wager that the cost of living in Toronto is the same if not higher than Calgary or Edmonton. I don't think the timmies worker gets paid 20 bucks an hour in T.O. Go without food for two weeks and that shit sandwich is going to start looking pretty good.

I'm saying I want that prof to put his money where his mouth is. If he feels the poor are so oppressed, he can voluntarily take a pay cut and help out. I gave you a citiation on that a couple of posts ago. People in poor countries might be able to earn a living growing food and fuel, how horrible. The NDP has enjoyed long terms of power in Saskatchewan on two seperate occasions. Texas also has quicker access to the markets. Texas has also been oil producing much longer than Alberta has, I'd like to see what the royalty rates were when the oil industry was in it's infancy there. Also the royalty rates are fairly generous in other parts of the world, that's why U.S. companies are setting up shop there instead of draining texas dry. It's also funny watching left wing deception, ---> I'm allowed to make money and your not. I'm not forcing anyone to buy gas or food. An urban lifestyle has its costs, if it's too much, live in the bush. It's also funny the left wing having to resort to fear tactics to make an argument against biofuels, fear tactics generally don't work. That last part is pure baloney. Farmers have been using machinery like crazy in order to maximize land use to try and get every little bit out of their land for garbage prices. The more product they sell the more money they get. They don't get paid a wage. If they did get paid a wage, then maybe they'd set aside some land. I've used the same amt. of fertilizer for the last ten years. There's also an increase in demand of fuel worldwide that apparently is more valued than food dollarwise, policy makers realize this and are able to cool off prices somewhat, help the environment, provide jobs, and strengthen the economy. When a country is a net exporter of a commodity, higher prices are a good thing. The economy of Manitoba doesn't stop at the perimeter highway.

If I lived in that particular riding, I would vote Liberal just to keep this trash out of office, and considering that I don't much care for the Liberal party, that's how important it is to keep people like her on the outside. If the tories had her in parliament, they would have no case against the Liberals for being crooks.

Stop threatening what. The Agribusiness and Agriculture sector is not allowed to have an opinion where there tax dollars go? Elitists dictating that we must grow grain for food and that we must not have a business friendly environment, but they get to have all the goodies? That's what the particular ethics professor thinks. I've seen research shown me that a little tiny portion is used to manufacture ethanol, which gets used anyways in agricultural overproduction. Farmers and the economy of Western Canada will do better with ethanol, and with ethanol it takes some uncertainty out of the market. Plus with the higher values of food, people in poor countries will be encouraged to grow their own food, I think they should be allowed to make a living instead of living on a subsidized lifestyle. The NDP in Saskatchewan were tossed out because they saw a well run machine next door and didn't want to be held back. If that logic is true, why have the tories been in power for 30 plus years in Alberta. The logic of not helping out corporations is why they look outside of Canada for doing their business. High demand or not. Don't take my word for it, Alberta helped out billion dollar American corporations set up shop there, and they are much better off. Had they not, those companies would have went elsewhere and our economy would be in worse shape than it is, we'd be where NFLD is, just starting to get going instead of doing well for a long time. A true right winger knows that there is no problem spending one dollar to get two so to speak.

Market forces also dictate that a tim hortons cashier earns 20 bucks an hour in Alberta without Unions or collective bargaining. Corporations also give the workers jobs in the first place, they both need each other, a corporation worth it's salt will not screw over workers when they can find jobs elsewhere, and at the same time won't bankrupt itself appeasing it's workers. A profitable corporation means that it's employees are guaranteed to get paid. 10 bucks an hour is better than 0 bucks an hour and living in the poor house.

I'm not saying the gov't should cut teachers, I'm saying it's frustrating when a University prof. of ethics writes an editorial in the western producer slamming the ag sector for taking advantage of poor people and ethanol subsidies, when at the same time he enjoys a tuition freeze and a cushy job. If this professor wants to bring back when food was in high demand yet cheap and Canadian farmers were going broke due to subsidies from the U.S./Europe, that same professor can work for minimum wage and then give farmers what for. If you watch CNN, they are complaining about high fuel costs more than food prices. Take out ethanol, and watch the price of oil and gas really take off. There is enough info supporting biofuel as there is denouncing it. The economy of Western Canada and now atlantic Canada is enjoying success due to higher oil prices, the same is now happening with farming. Shall we go back to the 80's and early 90's when commodities were in the tank??? If Saskatchewan was "booming" why did the NDP get the boot and a right wing gov't took over??? Oil companies need the subsidies to set up infrastructure and get their operations started, they are always starting new operations. One needs to compare Alberta and Saskatchewan in the NDP era.

They tossed out their MP for leaking cabinet secrets, which IMV is not as big a deal as potentially being linked to organized crime, dobbin or other liberal supporters can elaborate.