Videospirit

You sure like to lie huh? That isn't how borders work since world war 2, and you really want a world war 3 by trying to claim shit like that. Citation Required. Please list the treaty signed that gives Israel sovereignty over said territory.

You seem to believe that "No right to exist" is the same thing as "Cannot be allowed to exist." Which is just pure nonsense. I don't know why you keep bringing up extermination. Enough of your nonsense Yes Israel kept the war going. Yes Hamas escalated hostilities on october 7th. What is your point? The war has been going on since 1967. According to the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), between 7 October 2023 and 29 January 2024, at least 198 Palestinian households - 1,208 people, including 586 children - have been displaced due to settler violence and access restrictions. And that's just a 4 month period. War is awful, awful things happen in war. Peace is good. October 7th was awful, but Israel doesn't have justice on their side. Both sides of this conflict have committed wrongs, but Palestine is the one defending and Israel is the one occupying so Israel bears more responsibility. They should give Peace a chance. But Realistically, Israel is never going to agree to leave Hamas in charge, so I need to consider realistic alternatives. Israel defeating Hamas and replacing it with a new regime certainly isn't justified considering how much of the conflict is Israel's fault, but it's the only option Israel has if they want to restore peace to the region. It's not a just outcome, I'd really prefer they just try actually making peace with hamas, and Israel is a horrible country for letting it get this far, but it can be done. Israel is never going to do that though, because Israel doesn't want peace.

Israel's stance is that Palestine has no right to exist, and can only be permitted to exist if they are friendly towards Israel, because Israel's safety is more important than Palestine's sovereignty. Enough of your nonsense already.

Well, you call them chances, I call them political performance. You are greatly misusing the word objectively here. These chances you speak of are extremely subjective. You want an actual objective statement? At no point since the protectorate of Palestine was formed has a sovereign state of Palestine existed as a free country with no territory under occupation to show the world how such a state would behave. If the Palestinians put down their weapons permanently tomorrow the end result would be the same as if they don't put their weapons down and Israel occupies them militarily except less deaths in the short term. I don't know where you're getting this idea that that would somehow lead to them having their own country. Israel has occupied Palestine before, they never granted Palestinians their own country than. That's not an end to the war, it's just a change from an active battle to a military occupation. Regardless of whether "Gaza" wants war and violence, history has shown that the war won't end regardless of what they do. And as for Israel, Israel definitely needs to keep their weapons to defend themselves, Throwing down their weapons and surrendering would be incredibly unwise. They just don't need to use those weapons against Palestine. Hamas would love to accept a peace deal where Israel just ends their occupation of Palestine and returns prisoners of war and leaves them alone. I wouldn't be surprised if Israel is correct that Hamas would just use that peace to arm up for a future war against Israel, Israel certainly hasn't earned themselves any good will from Palestinians, but that would be Palestine's right as a sovereign nation. I'd hope having true peace for the first time in their lives would allow them to appreciate it and they'd reconsider such plans though, but no one can truly know how that would work out. It would certainly be the most just outcome possible to such a messed up situation though. I mean, when you occupy 100% of a region for decades without ever ending your war on that region, and send settlers to colonize it and displace the native population it's hard to call it anything else. Do you just... not follow world events at all? Sure their actual goal isn't 100% genocide of Palestinians, so the slow nature of the genocide can allow people to make silly arguments like "it's the most incompetent genocide I've ever seen" but you don't need to exterminate every last man woman and child to commit genocide. Arguing otherwise is like claiming the holocaust wasn't genocide because some jews survived it. Israel's goals of the genocide have always been about territory. They don't cry over dead Palestinians, but all they actually want is the land, so genocide itself isn't their goal, it's just the tool they've chosen to achieve their goal, and they want to use that tool sparingly to avoid international criticism. I don't endorse Hamas actions on October 7th, but I respect their sovereignty which is more than I can say for Israel. It's frustrating that they felt that was the best way for them to retaliate against Israel's decades of oppression, but at this point there's so much bad blood between Israel and Palestine that the war will never end unless Israel forces a peace on Palestine, because Palestine lacks the power to force a peace on Israel, and Palestine rightfully hates Israel so much that Israel will never accept a negotiated peace deal with them because they see Palestine as a threat. I have 0 faith that Israel will force a peace on Palestine though, because they've said time and again that they want to annex Palestine.

The way I see it they have had 0 chances. It'd be like if China invaded all of the us except texas and promised for reals they'd end the occupation in 20 years if the Texans never did anything to oppose them and than oh wait let's extend it another 20 years because this unrelated third party launched a terrorist attack claiming to be texans. What a Palestine at war with Israel has done is not conclusive evidence of what a free Palestine would do. A lot of Palestine's actions have been backed by their belief that the international community will somewhat tolerate their actions because Israel is occupying them. But even if that was evidence of what Palestine would do if Israel stopped screwing them over and denying their right to exist, what is Israel going to do about it? Even if you think Israel is justified retaliating against the resumption of hostilities in the decades long war, they're not going to regime change Palestine, they're just going to continue the war indefinitely like they've always done. The only one with the power to end this war is Israel, and they just refuse to do so because Israel's end goal is to expand their territory, and International law makes it very difficult for them to do that so they need to keep screwing over the Palestinians over and over again until they either all die or a lawfully elected Palestinian government willingly agrees to cede territory to Israel while not under duress. This entire conflict would have ended ages ago if Israel wanted it to.

What I want? I want Israel to accept that Palestinians hate them and turn the other cheek and let the Palestinians rise or mess up their own country as they themselves choose without Israel telling them how to live their lives, occupying their land, blockading their coastline, or telling them what they can and can't do. If after granting them true sovereignty and ending all occupations, Palestine is unwise enough to attack Israel, Israel would be justified occupying their country and installing a new regime smart enough not to attack Israel again and withdraw from all occupied territory again once that new regime has stabilized. I think the state of Israel is guilty of genocide for dragging this war out for as long as they have, dumping humiliation after humiliation on the Palestinian people and demanding the Palestinians be servile and thankful to their efforts every step of the way and than going back on their word and continuing the occupation whenever Palestinians get upset. Israeli governing officials have openly stated that they have no intention of ever ending this war because they do not want to return all of Palestine's territory to them. So I don't think Israel deserves the benefit of the doubt in the current conflict. I'd really like it if they just accepted Hamas Peace terms and ended the war, because Israel has no moral ground to stand on as the occupying power, but Israel isn't benevolent so that's never going to happen. Israel refuses to acknowledge Hamas right to exist, so they'll keep fighting until Hamas ceases to exist. So if Israel not being a genocidal pariah state is off the table, regime change would at least be an improvement over decades more of Israeli occupation. But even if Israel destroys Hamas militarily, what is Israel going to do after that? They sure as hell aren't going to do the closest thing to the morally right thing they could justifiably do and grant Palestinians independence under an Israeli backed Palestinian Regime. It's just going to be more abuse of Palestinians by Israelis for the indeterminate future in the hopes that eventually Israel will be able to annex more Palestinian land at some point in the future. The US unjustified invasion of Iraq started on March 19, and by April 21 a new governmental Regime was in charge of Iraq. The military disparity between Israel and Palestine is even more severe than that between Iraq and the United States. Israel's decades of occupation of Palestine has no excuse.

The International Court of Justice (ICJ),[3] the UN General Assembly,[4] and the UN Security Council all regard Israel as the occupying power for the territories.[5] UN Special Rapporteur Richard Falk called Israel's occupation "an affront to international law". The UN and a number of human rights organizations continue to consider Israel as the occupying power of the Gaza Strip due to its blockade of the territory. Citation Required. Please list the treaties signed granting Israel Sovereignty over the territory claimed by modern Palestine.

Does this board not have any moderation? I'm pretty sure your conduct in this entire post is way out of line. Please refrain from further hate speech in the future. This is a forum for discussion not irrational hate filled vitriol.

"Israel has been willing to make peace with them". You keep saying this as if Israel just can't seem to make peace no matter how hard it tries, as if the Palestinian army is so powerful that Israel has no choice but to negotiate a peace with them instead of enforcing one. If it was any other country at war with Palestine, Palestine would have been crushed long ago, some local authoritarian puppet would have been propped up and placed in charge of the region until they had it firmly under control, and Israel would have withdrawn to let their puppet control the region by force long ago. The fact Israel has never done this is purely because they have some other motive in the conflict, and from all the colonization of Palestinian territory it's not hard to understand what those motives are.

The point is Israel is at War with Palestine. The occupation is part of that war. They have never been at peace. Israel has not ended the war despite achieving victory in it, and somehow expects the people they are occupying to stop hating them before they'll ever end their occupation. Not sure what your point is here exactly? There have been countless wars throughout history. If neither country is willing to surrender or make peace, the war continues until the countries change their minds or one country achieves a victory so great they can essentially force terms on the other without their consent. The problem here is Israel achieved a victory so great they could impose terms on Palestine and than Israel... chose not to do so. Israel decided it would be better to just stay at war with Palestine, and that Israel would never end the war until Palestine stops hating them. And since people at war are never going to improve their opinion towards the country at war with them, Israel basically chose to Genocide the Palestinians until there's no one left to hate them and has continued that policy ever since.

It's pretty simple, if foreign boots in Ukraine would provoke world war 3, world war 3 is inevitable if Russia wins the war, but you'll have to pay for all the wars leading up to world war 3 as well as the inevitable world war 3. Now if Ukraine can win the war without foreign boots, that's a best case scenario because no chance of world war 3 that way, so it's worth trying that first. If the doomsayers in this topic saying Ukraine can't win are correct, foreign boots on the ground is the only alternative that can prevent world war 3. Whether Ukraine stays a proxy war that sticks to the territory of Ukraine or evolves into a full blown world war 3 in that situation isn't certain, but it's better to provoke world war 3 asap than to appease a conqueror. The conqueror is just going to get stronger every time you appease them and be harder to defeat when they finally attack your country. But I for one seriously doubt Russia or China wants to spark world war 3, and North Korea and Iran sure as hell don't have the guts to do it. It would almost certainly be a proxy war at most.

Israel's blockade of gaza has been internationally classified as an occupation of the territory. Facts don't care about your feelings. Which is the crux of the problem people have with Israel. What right does Israel have to exert any authority over them? Country, Nation, Territory, whatever Palestine is, it's not part of Israel. Israel treating it like Israel has any authority over it is why Israel is the aggressor in the conflict. You say this as if it's something they needed Israel's permission for in the first place. The fact Israel is involved in the discussion of Palestinian statehood at all is outrageous.

Was every square inch of the Gaza strip constantly occupied by Israeli boots on the ground? No. Did Palestinians have freedom of movement through their territory without needing permission from Israel to travel around their own country? No. Could they fish or conduct maritime commerce without Permission from Israel? No. Could they attract immigrants to their country to be teachers or help rebuild their country without permission from Israel? No. Could Israel have been a crueler occupier, sure, but to call the Palestinians free and at peace is just laughable. Personally if I was them, the ceasefire they had with Israel was probably preferable to the open warfare they've now found themselves in, but they were never at peace.

Not saying shit about what hamas has done to their own citizens, but it's a simple fact that Israel has been openly at war with hamas since before they became the leaders of palestine, but hamas hasn't really been able to mount effective resistance against the much stronger Israel. You don't need to convince people that hamas are horrible people no sane person would ever want to be in charge of their country. Mostly because it doesn't matter. People are used to Countries like China or Russia or Pakistan or Iran or Syria or Saudi Arabia or many other countries having horrible oppressive leadership that doesn't have their citizens best interests at heart. We as an international community have willfully chosen to turn a blind eye to such atrocities as far as military response goes. Trying to draw attention to these points is just wasting energy about things nobody considers justifying an invasion of another country.

People expect the victims of a conflict to be bitter and vengeful. They're willing to overlook a lot of reprehensible things when those feelings are directed towards a villain. And in general, it's expected that two countries at war will hate each other because of it, and that hatred alone doesn't justify continuing a war, because that will never end. That's an outright lie. Even if I was willing to concede that they've spent every moment since than in a state where if they were forced to honestly answer whether they wished they could commit genocide against Israel or not they'd say yes, which I'm not, that still wouldn't mean they've actively tried to do so even once since Israeli defeated them in 1967. This kind of thinking is toxic and prevents people from forming any basis for real change in the situation.

Ever since 1967 Gaza has been under some form of Israeli Occupation, and hamas has never started a war with Israel, at most they've ended ceasefires in the ongoing war against Israeli occupation of Palestine. Anyone who tries to claim "Gaza" hasn't been under Israeli Occupation is willfully ignorant of the situation. There hasn't been a moment where Hamas was in control of Gaza where Israel wasn't committing acts of war against the territory. Hamas has been relatively peaceful in comparison, mostly because they struggle to mount any kind of resistance not any lack of desire, but still. Trying to claim that Israel laying siege to a territory and blockading its ports is peace is laughable and anyone doing so should never take part in a political discussion.

If it takes foreign boots on the ground to drive Russia out, that would be preferable to a peace deal that makes wars of conquest legal again. The consequences of such a peace deal are just too great. And it'd be way cheaper to defeat Russia now than to let Russia get any kind of victory and than pay for all of the wars that will follow. So arguing about the cost is shortsighted and you should shut down anyone who chickens out about defeating Russia because of the cost for how short sighted such arguments are.

What? Hamas has no power to end this conflict. Israel is the one constantly dragging this war out instead of forcing a peace on the clearly weaker foe. Hamas could maybe do something to earn themselves a ceasefire, but Israel is the one occupying Palestine, and hamas has no power to make them end the war.

It's been pretty significantly undermined by the security council yes. And yet, even in it's current form, it's managed to maintain relative peace in the world, and international law is widely used to resolve disputes. The minute nations recognize a Ukraine Russia peace deal that cedes territory as legal though? They won't even be able to so much as pretend the charter of the UN matters anymore. International law will be a thing of the past.

There is 0 justification for the blockades. Either Palestine is actively in the process of attacking Israel, or whatever it's doing is none of Israel's business. If Palestine is actively in the process of attacking Israel, defeat Palestine militarily and install a new regime by force. If it's not, leave Palestine alone. It's extremely simple. Instead Israel chose to actively oppress Palestinians indefinitely and act like a pariah state. The only explanation for Israel's behavior is if Israel was hoping to one day annex Palestine into itself or they really really want to genocide Palestinians. Either way makes Israel the villain here. They could Perform a Regime Change, withdraw from Gaza and the west bank, and have this war over very quickly if they wanted, and they'd probably be able to claim Jerusalem entirely for themselves if they really wanted. Israel does not want Peace.

Depends on your definition of biolab I guess. The actual propaganda was claiming the US was funding laboratories whose research was focused on developing better biological weapons. Nowhere in the released documents did the US admit to funding such research, or claim Ukraine did so in those laboratories. Seems kind of silly to get up in arms over a semantic issue like that though. What exactly is your point?

From a modern statehood standpoint, there has never been an independent Palestine. At no point has the region not been under siege since Israel became a country. Sure at points, they've been granted limited self governance, but Israel has never granted them sovereignty or freedom. That "land" includes coastal waters that have been under Israeli Blockade. They never had it 100% to themselves. Israel would certainly like to neutralize the threat a free Palestine would pose to them, but they don't really have any moral justification to do that by pre-emptively invading a foreign territory just because that territory's citizens hate them. And Israel has never stopped committing acts of war against that territory for a single moment. The territory has been blockaded and sieged pretty much non stop since Israel gained statehood. Any act by Palestine against Israel could be considered a war crime, but it's not terrorism. Israel is the stronger party by far. None of Israel's Territory is under Palestinian Occupation. They could end the war whenever they want. Israel doesn't want Peace. Many find the idea of a Palestinian state in its current form objectionable, but the world does not approve of invading Iran or Saudi Arabia or Pakistan just because you don't like the way their countries are run, why is Palestine any different? Hamas is quite detestable, but it's easy to sympathize with the defenders in a war. With the average age of the territory's citizens, there likely isn't a local Palestinian alive today who hasn't been under attack by Israel since the day they were born. So even if hamas is undeniably morally worse than Israel in a vacuum, the circumstances make Israel the undeniable villains in the conflict.

If Territory is ceded to Russia in a peace deal, it will be the first time that territory was recognized and accepted as legally annexed by a foreign nation militarily since world war 2. The ideals that went into the creation of the united nations will have been completely abandoned. The fragile status quo that has allowed most of the world to live in relative peace will be shattered. A new era of conquest will unfold. So every nation on the planet that does not want their nation to go to war has an obligation to make sure Russia is driven out of Ukraine.