Venandi

Good Lord, I hardly even know what to say other than fire the Fire Chief. That means leadership (at all levels) is the issue and it raises the spectre of skewed promotion criteria based on factors other than competency that some of you folks have been defending right along. You can't have it both ways. The military fell into this trap years ago and are doing the same thing again with DEI based recruiting efforts and promotions. Off topic but I would invite you to consider police defunding as a case in point. As in all professions, the bad apples are well know to all, why weren't they dealt with accordingly? When leadership fails to address poor performance you end up with bad actors making bad judgements and performing poorly leading to high profile debacles. Then the public, fuelled by self serving political rhetoric, demands defunding and engages in unwarranted vilification which in turn translates to attrition and personnel shortages. The first ones out the attrition door will ALWAYS be your best performers... ALWAYS. The lack of game keepers eventually becomes an obvious problem because poachers are allowed to run amuck... the public then demands enhanced recruiting and the return of funding. Mass recruiting invariably lowers intake standards and before long you have the self same problems which fuelled the initial defunding idea because of lower recruiting standards. Since careers are measured in decades you end up chewing on the predictable results for a long time. Most of this is leadership IMO. Leaders compensate for known threats and mitigate those to the maximum extent possible. Poor leaders blame external factors for pi$$ poor performance... like global warming. And citizens who buy into their nonsense ensure it keeps happening because they will keep voting for it.

Why not just follow events instead of expecting others to do your homework for you? These things take time to figure out, it has to be done systematically, one piece of the puzzle at a time without jumping to conclusions precipitously at every stage of the evolution. Here's an article from MSN but maybe they turned racist 18 hours ago: https://www.msn.com/en-us/public-safety-and-emergencies/fire-and-rescue/illegal-immigrant-arrested-near-la-fire-with-blowtorch-is-a-convicted-felon-with-history-of-violence/ar-BB1rse3R I would hasten to add that this is in no way governing... being thwarted in an arson attempt isn't causal and anyone assuming that all of this is the exclusive domain of illegals is jumping to conclusions in the same manner you are but in reverse... each of those actions is a bad as the other in terms of achieving credible results IMO. I'm really starting to sympathize with the militaries recruiting issues now. There are tests for attitudes like this and the number of applicants being rejected for cause is off the charts suddenly. If you can't take an overall snapshot of a situation, form a credible threat assessment based on what's in plain view, chart a course to counter the threat while making corrections and adjustments along the way and be able to do that in a reasonable (not expert) fashion, then we collectively will get exactly what we seem to have now. You make things better by doing thorough investigations after the fact and adjusting contingency planning based on the results. It clearly doesn't work well in a narrative charged environment and some of these threads are proof of the potential difficulties in doing that.

Robo... here's something else for your superior intellect to chew on with regard to child obesity levels DUH This is all your fault DUH According to the results of a longitudinal cohort analysis published in SSM – Population Health, U.S. researchers found that healthy children (under age 10) were increasingly likely to voice conservative beliefs as older adults (over age 64). This difference arose independently of academic history, personality, or later-life health. The association was propelled by children with better health, and childhood health may somehow impact social forces resulting in adult political attitudes. OK, I'm done now... any chance of a return rational considerations here?

I care about you... see ya at the gym.

IIt appears there is a correlation between obesity and global warming, kind of a chicken and egg thing. Global warming causes people to get fat (too much ice cream on hot days I guess) and fat people contribute to global warming through excessive consumption (about 20% more than fit people). Given the epidemic of obesity, fat people are now the leading cause of global warming. So... instead of cleaning up brush piles and investing in early detection, aerial application, LAFD manning, electrical grid updates and the like, all that's needed is remedial fitness training for fatties (RFTFF). Look Robo... I can do it too, and here's video evidence that I'm right DUH. In the last 5 years this video has been viewed almost 200 times so it must be true DUH Prove this isn't causal DUH

From Robosmith: "IGNORE AWARDED DUE TO WORTHLESS POSTS. BYE." How do I get one of these?

The fencing match is over... can't help ya.

No, it happened Tuesday and you know it. You'd be better off arguing that the system was never designed for the level of demand being asked of it in that scenario. That admission would foster the idea of pre-emptive planning for most people. At a minimum, it could be constructively applied to future planning after a disastrous failure. But I think you know that too. "Completely dry - couldn't get any water out of it," said Captain Kevin Easton, who was part of a firefighting patrol battling flames that were quickly engulfing the Pacific Palisades in the Los Angeles area on Tuesday evening, according to The NY Times.

They even jump rivers, trees on the other side explode into flames. It's made all the worse in reforested areas where deciduous trees were sprayed in favour fir. This was a huge fail point, lots of homes lost because of it and lots of stories of people defying evacuation orders and saving their homes with a garden hose... no fire trucks in sight. No one is suggesting otherwise, forest management likely falls to the state, and property management enforcement to the county/city... another fail on all counts. Yes, and that small effort payed off big time for some. Likely the biggest single cause factor of all, there will be a lot of WTF did you think was going to happen questions after all is said and done. The urgency with which common sense mitigation efforts are dismissed by those favouring climate change as causal baffles me. You would think they would be leading the mitigation charge.

I think it's an utterly foolish proposition personally. Caution though, you're now starting to sound like me.... stand by for Robo incoming fire. Maybe he can explain it all to dumb hyenas.

That's what I was referring to as well even if I said pipes.... you guys kill me your specifics. Being plastic though, pex certainly would. Solder joints can fail at about 430F in the absence of captured water and suppression initiation occurs at well under half that temperature. I'm not going to fence with you, if you have any real information on this I can assure you I'm interested. If there's a plumber about I'll ask... it has never come up as one of those lunch time arguments tradesmen seem to delight in though. I can't imagine building codes would allow pex in suppression applications.

Automatic initiation typically occurs between 165F and 195F and doesn't require power to activate. Wouldn't that be below the threshold to gas off entrapped water and melt joints. Seems to me you're defending oddball occurrences that are (at least IMO) not statistically very significant when compared with other known and obvious cause factors. Clearly that can be an issue with pipes feeding furnaces / oil heaters if gravity fed fuel is released and feeds the fire. but under normal activation parameters I've not heard of "melting pipes" being causal. I suspect building codes would prohibit pex distribution lines but don't know that for sure. If you have links to such things I would actually read them as I have a passing interest in construction related issues.... I didn't find anything when I looked I but don't have time to pursue it much today. Logically, under the extreme circumstance present in LA, I'm not sure internal suppression measures would have much impact anyway... the external factors were so extreme as to render much of that moot I think.

You have to be a bit patient with this and let the house warm up DUH, the melting point of lead free solder can vary a bit depending on composition but apparently it's around 220C or 428F... Trouble is, right wingers just can't seem to grasp that the only reason the house burnt down was because temperatures around the pipes got so high that the solder melted. Some of these MAGA hyenas foolishly thought that most systems (in most houses) would initiate before the joints melted and the pipes fell apart... DUH, try and keep up eh. Luckily, we have smart people here to keep those silly hyenas in check. And, as everyone knows, global warming makes good solder hard to find, DUH. ----------- In all seriousness though, weak solder joints can be problematic with rapid onset heat stress... likely not a significant cause factor in this level of destruction though.Some hyenas might be more inclined to look at other factors like fuel loading, early response issues, manning and preparedness.... they might do that in response to the known challenges California clearly has at the best of times.

I've seen lots of guys ring out of physically demanding courses too. Fitness is certainly required but once that's proven, mostly it boils down to being a mental game. I was never the biggest, fastest, smartest, or toughest... never quite made that legendary Robo standard of excellence but despite that, I was always standing among the survivors at the end wondering where all the Robos had gone and why they were the first ones to tap. After a while you get a better read on that stuff. I posted the link because someone here was saying prove that the fire chief had DEI priorities. She did. The question is did her personal priorities negatively impact departmental ones, to what extent did that happen (if it did), and what (if any) impact did it have on operations. And yes... I think there will be a few questions asked when this is over. Don't you?

Well, with that much wisdom on tap "duh" just seems tragically insufficient.

Of course it's dumb... how else would you be able to understand it?

In the fullness of time I think all aspects of this tragedy will come under pretty close scrutiny. Personally (and it's just me BTW), I'm interested in the impact that a 7 million dollar reduction in overtime funding had on the readiness of air assets prior to a known high risk time period. Some will likely argue that the time between the implementation of cuts and their effects manifesting is too short to be relevant but that's probably not the case for the aviation unit where the impact might have been immediate... time will tell. Self serving political rhetoric and partisan posturing in this case is not going to be received well by voters... it's not a path I would be choosing to walk. I'll leave that to the Herbs and Robos of the world. Here's a piece from CNN that touches on budget cuts and recruiting FWIW. I'm sure there will be lots more to come... the Chiefs personal priorities and the impact of them on departmental priorities will certainly be part of that process IMO: https://www.cnn.com/2025/01/12/us/fire-department-los-angeles-wildfires/index.html The "focus on inclusion" portion of the article's content is extracted below: The LAFD has historically had mostly White, male firefighters, Hudley-Hayes said. Crowley is the LAFD’s first woman and LGBTQ person to serve as chief, according to her bio. In her bio, Crowley lists her priorities as “creating, supporting, and promoting a culture that values diversity, inclusion, and equity while striving to meet and exceed the expectations of the communities.” Hudley-Hayes credits Crowley with establishing the department’s Office of Equity and Human Resources last year. Since she became chief in 2022, there are more Black, Latino, Asian and female firefighters in each recruitment class, Hudley-Hayes said. Hawkins, however, said the department still struggles with diversity and how it treats Black firefighters. The LAFD is roughly 11% Black, he said. Black firefighters continue to face low levels of promotions and often don’t receive adequate training for their positions, leading to low retention rates, Hawkins said. “The treatment of African Americans in the fire department has been horrible,” Hawkins said Actor James Woods suggested that Crowley prioritized DEI over ensuring fire hydrants had enough water. “She took over and she put on her bio that her priority … is inclusion, diversity and equity …,” Woods said on Fox News.“And somebody forgot to fill all the reservoirs, I guess, with water because when I was getting smoke alarms there was a fire truck parked in front of my house, but they couldn’t pump any water because there was none.” On Friday, the Los Angeles Times reported that a nearby reservoir was undergoing repairs and was empty at the time of the fires, further hampering firefighting efforts. Hours later, California Gov. Gavin Newsom called for an independent investigation into the problems with the water supply for firefighters battling the blazes. “The ongoing reports of the loss of water pressure to some local fire hydrants during the fires and the reported unavailability of water supplies from the Santa Ynez Reservoir are deeply troubling to me and to the community,” Newsom wrote in a letter, which he posted on X. Scott Jennings, a CNN political commentator, also condemned the efforts to diversify the fire department. “We have DEI, we have budget cuts and yet I’m wondering now, if your house was burning down, how much do you care what color the firefighters are?” Jennings said on CNN’s Abby Phillip’s News Night. Johnny Gray, president of the Los Angeles County Stentorians, which strives to promote diversity in the Los Angeles County Fire Department, said DEI is important to ensure there is fair representation of firefighters of all ethnicities, genders and backgrounds. It also helps build trust with the community when they know there are firefighters who look like them and understand them, he said. “It’s very important that we do reflect the community that we serve,” Gray said. “We are going inside these folks’ homes. There are different cultures, different ways of handling different situations and if you’re not diverse in your fire department you might not know how to handle it or how to talk to someone.”

Well, don't tell Herb and Robo why we do that... they'll think homogenization is attack on gay people.

I read the thread twice... only Herb and Robo understand what he's taking about.

A good question. Listening to impassioned New Yorkers is both entertaining and enlightening... it's actually a moving combination for people with relatable experience. Two pages in and I'm not even sure what your original point or premise is. This guy is pretty clear on a single aspect of the madness though: https://www.foxbusiness.com/video/6366991539112

I grew up with one of them at the end of our dirt road. One of those green, multi box, precursors to the supper mailbox. One lockable compartment for each household. That was back in the days of party line phones. Seems to me there's a huge divide in Canada between city mice and country mice. Lot's of unexploited wedge issues there for liberals to work on. The "raw milk" thing makes me laugh every time I hear Herb-like creatures label it a MAGA freedumb issue. We grew up thinking it was just milk... my kids still laugh at me for giving the milk container a quick up and down shake before pouring it.

Here's one of them... it's at the 2 min mark of the video for those interested. Cutting overtime may seem like a reasonable response to budget cuts but there can be overlooked operational impacts in critical areas. This is why a Nov/Dec time frame was an issue for the Chief IMO, it's part of the lead up to a high threat time period. Simply lumping things like time compressed certification training into an "overtime bucket" renders the tracks left behind latent... there isn't enough of a shit smell for Robo to track it... and since the blind monkey refuses to hold hands with him, things like that can get overlooked. People flying drones in restricted operating zones don't help the effort either because most of the action takes place low level. Not sure how you can communicate with people like this... luckily we have Robo to practice on though. He still thinks all of this is a "mostly peaceful demonstration" against climate change and approves of having those 75 fire truck from Oregon being held up in Sacramento for mechanical safety inspections. https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2025-01-10/incredibly-dangerous-more-unauthorized-drones-fly-above-palisades-fire Robo... I actually agree with one of your quotes: I can easily tell your background cause an expert would easily have EVIDENCE at hand and you never do...

If nothing else there are some absolutely stunning images of the fiasco coming out. I'm likely a bit biased toward early detection and timely engagement with air resources placed on regional alert status during high threat periods. The budget cuts are known to have had an effect on overtime which many might find reasonable on the face of it. Trouble is spinning up seasonal arial application assets are a large overtime consumer due to the concentrated and time compressed nature of the spin up process. I saw a video which mentioned that in passing recently... I'll post it if I see it again.

You're fired.

It doesn't matter whether you're right or not DUH. Things like: The brush pile matter DUH. The Hydrants matter DUH, LAFD manning and funding matters DUH, Even if I agreed with your assessment of cause, even if I wrote the damn peer reviewed research journals, I'd still want to see incremental progress being made on fuel loading and suppression efforts because I know what's in store for us. Even I can walk around, identify the threats, read a map, identify worst case scenarios and try to head them off at the pass. You might not want to admit it but I bet you wouldn't voluntarily get on an airplane with a Capt who refused to do that. Ooops, almost forgot to say DUH