Winston

This entire time I have been open to the idea I could be wrong, trying to understand your perspective on religion. But throughout our conversation most of the things stated do not make logical sense and do not function within the laws of our universe. I have been interested in "supernatural" point of view, but most of my questions are answered with circular reasoning or in the case how does one verify a supernatural event, no answer. “Why would I be open to the idea I could be wrong? That would mean I am unsure of what I believe.” - This statement says everything about your mindset, not looking for answers, not critically thinking and not looking to challenge your beliefs for fear that you might be "unsure of what" you "believe" Please see the problem with this mindset.

I agree that your future outlook is more realistic rather than my sarcastic reply. However, I believe the people responsible, politicians, medical advisors, doctors and health officers, will operate in their best interest. Meaning the actions taken will be of self interest. If there is a hint of professional misconduct or failure to provide an adequate solution in a timely manner, a "fall guy" will be required. Thus saving the majority of people responsible positions, social status and private wealth. I would argue the more restrictions mandated, the safer the people responsible are, at least legally and socially, for now.

If there is only a tax on the unvaccinated, the fundamental statement comes down to, " because you are pro choice, you must pay a tax for this action, we will enforce this tax by first a fine and second by imprisonment if the tax is not paid" Yes people will come with with the ability to use physical force, escort the unvaccinated to court, where either they pay the fine(tax) or they will serve prison time. If they do not pay, they go to prison where people use physical and deadly force to prevent them from exiting. This is force, 100%.

I can answer this. If Canada holds a 100 % vaccination title, COVID as we know it can disappear, well at least the fear machine. Once most, if not all are forced to vaccinate, the dance and shifting from numbers, percentile, to population percentile will no longer be required. All numbers will be vaccine numbers, the "good" numbers. Yes of course numbers in the hospital and ICU will still exist, but they will only be referenced as the minority of the population, a tiny percentage, a percentage of people who already had preexisting conditions. Those numbers will not matter, 100% vaccination means there will be no need for data allocation or hospitalization data, as COVID will be "solved". Only the 100% vaccination number will matter, only the 100% number. We will see a parade of media with titles, " No risk from COVID! thanks to the 100% vaccinations" or " COVID disappearing thanks to 100% vaccinations" Or We will see that 3 dose of the same vaccination were the wrong method.

I wish the unvaccinated would get vaccinated as well. But I do not want to force the unvaccinated to get vaccinated, that is the difference. As soon as physical, financial, economic or mental force is used, it becomes an entirely different ideology.

"You were converted into Catholicism after you were born; then you were converted away from it and into humanism by atheist or secular humanist teachers." - Not converted, told and indoctrinated into Catholicism. Thus I held a belief to which I was wrong. Science has nothing to do with religion, it is the method by which we understand the world around us. Using that method I determined that at least the God of Christianity has no evidence of existence. "Anyone who believes in a false humanist worldview needs to be converted;" - This is why its a dishonest conversation. Your goal is conversion not finding answers. "Why is conversion something sinister or dishonest to you? " - Because of this "Why would I be open to the idea I could be wrong?", it is not a dialog it is pure confidence without evidence. If you are not open to the idea that your belief could be wrong, then your ignoring everything that shows it is wrong. When someone state this " Why would I be open to the idea I could be wrong", it means there is no room for improvement, critical thinking or discovery.

Your actually not an honest debater, instead of debating your only goal is conversion. Your not open to the idea you could be wrong whatsoever. I was born and raised catholic, born again, went to church 2 times a week until 18. At which point, scientific critical thinking took place, where religion seemed quite silly to the rules of the universe. Your welcome to believe in religion, I find it helps those who need a sense of supernatural moral guide for their life and an imaginary best friend for life.

Yes, there always has been. I am just hoping the majority don't follow the down bad ideologies and repeat history. Interesting enough, in universities the majority had enough of the "sadism".

I totally agree, hence why I am asking, what is the long term plan? We need to stop this weird "hate/blame" towards groups if we want to solve the virus.

Nope not speculation, there is science behind it, maybe learn the science behind it. "false claim that something of infinite complexity can come from nothing. " - How is it a false claim? We have been through this before, complexity does not mean god, you would need to show with physical scientific evidence how god created the universe. "What young person in the public school system believes anything but what they've been told by proponents of a big bang or evolution? " - No one believes in it, they have evidence of it, belief is not required. Proponents, you mean studies? by multiple sources? With multiple methods? "What critical thinking is involved in believing that?" - Pretty much everything about science is about critically thinking, maybe learn how science works. "It is just accepted as dogma." - sure some people do, but it is evidence based, unlike the religious garbage that is indoctrinated on children.

“ If you are happy with someone with 12 weeks training looking after you when you are critically ill in an ICU, fill your boots but leave me out. "I think he is having a stroke. Oh, no one taught me about that, all I know is basic covid." - Again there are trained professionals who would take care of such severe measures, but for the basic needs basic trained technicians can fill the role. ICU volunteers ( I was one in 2009) perform these basic tasks, helping patients mentally, physically and assisting RNs. I also worked in the ER as a volunteer, just having an extra body to assist with patients is valuable. Another option would be to add more administration jobs to assist MD and RN in order to help keep them on track. This would help them focus on more severe patients like you mention and spend less time on paperwork. “Close the border. Sure, there are 30,000 trucks crossing border every day carrying trade and essential goods.” - 30,000 trucks is less of an issue than 30,000 people getting out of the truck and walking in the airport. Close the border to people crossing into the country who intend to contact others. We already have measures in place for those 30,000 trucks to prevent transmission of the virus. Another option is to test them if they need to exit the vehicle. “We are investing in vaccines, haven't you been paying attention”- We have been investing in the same vaccine to solve a different problem, the booster is not a vaccine altered for the next variant. Why keep doing the same thing hoping for different results? “ but that also takes time and how do you develop a vaccine specifically for a variant that doesn't exist yet? Tell us please.” - By waiting for it to happen globally, then addressing the variant nationally through a vaccine. This was the original point of a vaccine. If Omicron did not enter Canada, we could create a vaccine for that specific variant ( mRNA, the fastest tech), administer it to the population before it even enters the country. “How much extra have you put into healthcare and how did you do it?” It's called taxes. I used to trust the people who ran the healthcare system to ensure they would be prepared for something like this, especially in April of 2020. “Everything you suggest is coming from hindsight“ - I have less knowledge than our medical or governmental system holds and yet at least I have a plan people can see. They have the same hindsight right now, but no plan. We are so focus on vaccine status, we forgot the real problem is the virus.

In response to the initial topic before it drifted off into religion. Yes the world is trying to pollute the minds of young people with false narratives of the origin and meaning of life. From religious beliefs, commercialism to political ideologies narratives are everywhere. But it does not mean young people are actually falling for baseless ideologies, young people today have more access to information and still have ability to critically think.

Not an accident, maybe learn the science behind it.

No it does not, it take time to train highly professional MD, RN or LPN. We are looking at maybe 8 to 12 weeks of training max for the tasks required. What do we do now to get us through the time it takes to train them in mass? - Immediately invest in schools to supply this training. Technical schools or collages would absolutely be delighted to preform this task, free funding. You want highly specialized people who take even longer to train. - No highly specialized people take a short time, RN or MD have vast knowledge not specialized knowledge, part of the reason they take a long time. "strictest travel limitations and domestic restrictions." - restrictions are not closed borders. "The idea of keeping it out of a country with a 5000 Km border between it and the most infected country in the world that is also our largest trading partner is ridiculous." - Well hence why we close our borders to at least try to prevent transmission across the border. Who are low risk? - No preexisting conditions, ages lower than 40s as per data. "Yes there are people at higher risk than others but how this effects you is still largely a matter of chance for reasons we don't yet understand. "- Then what data do we need in order to understand this problem? "because everything you list will be expensive." - Its either we solve the problem, let people die, or hope for someone else to solve the problem. "Everything you list is long term, none of them do anything for our present situation." - I asked what plans were in place? I never said it needed to solve the problem tomorrow, even a 2 year plan is acceptable. Yes we are looking at 6 months to a year for sure, but again that is because nobody made a solid plan with contingencies. Again show me their plan, what are the steps, what is the objective and what is the end goal?

How do you plan for the next variant when you don't know how infectious, vaccine resistant or severe it will be? - Do not allow anyone in the country, evaluate the next variant globally. If the variant is from within, restrict outside zone travel. What do you suggest to support our system that we aren't doing? - Basing our decisions on data, for example the majority of those under 40 years old are low risk, allow every low risk person to determine their own interaction outside their home. Those that are high risk, slowly introduce them into society once the hospitals are at low capacity. Encourage social interactions with those of low risk to those of low risk, allow immunity to build, do not allow time for the virus to mutate drastically. Open the economy. Help those that are high risk, food, resources and assistance. Invest in treatments for COVID, invest in ICU equipment and hospital staff ( specifically covid trained care technicians). What do you suggest? -Create incentives to work in hospitals, create incentives for Canadian companies to shift into medical equipment development, create incentives for training centers around covid hospital care for basic tasks, unloading the professionally trained. Bring back unvaccinated medical staff. Invest in vaccines, ones that are for the next global or local variant. Are you prepared to pay for a huge permanent expansion in health care just to handle once in a lifetime pandemics? - absolutely, but realistically as long as Canadian staff, Canadian companies and Canadian materials are used, the funds will just recirculate back into the economy anyway. Would you have been prepared to pay for it before we ever heard of Covid? - I did and have, and have no issue paying for health care given I have access to it 24/7. In the longer term, focus more on treatment and effective vaccinations, keep the economy and socialization open, both for finical health and for mental health. Fortunately viruses tend to decrease in severity. Everyone is an expert when it comes to hindsight. - sure, but 2 years later things are worse not better. Magic wand do you think governments can wave to fix this tomorrow?- not an expectation, but a plan for say 1 or even 2 years is better than no plan, just react.

We are talking about two different “programs” . I can agree with your premise based upon required demand by the greater societal benefit, given the societal benefit is moral and has an evidential basis. (beyond social responsibility) I am looking for actual steps, goals or end result that the individuals responsible have planned to attain pre COVID conditions. Obviously we may not know these plans, but since the steps appear to fail in providing a plan for pre COVID conditions, I question the objective.

My apologies, I see, your talking about social responsibility as a "program". I am talking about the systematic program/steps designed to provide a path to basic pre covid life, hence why I asked the steps, goals and end.

What is the end goal?

I can not get an honest answer to the simple question, what are the steps, goals and end result the program intents to complete. If no one knows, shouldn't that be concerning?

Planning for Omricon, instead of assuming the virus would just magically disappear. If we were doing great, what were the steps towards pre covid life? What was the goal? We must first be able to agree that the system is failing to provide a path to pre covid life before recognition that other methods can be installed.

Please explain what it has to do with my question.

Yes exactly this is the fundamental problem, we are reacting instead of proactively planning. In fact you brought up a great point a few weeks back about about not opening boarders. We need to be proactive in our planning. It is why the current program ( still unsure the goals or steps to pre covid life) is failing.

Can we agree the program currently in place does not have the necessary steps to obtain a pre covid life?

Never mind, if you can be serious there is no point in discussion.

No, what is the publics goal, not mine, because my goals don't matter to the rest of the country. Can we agree that the publics goal is to have a basic sense of pre covid life?