Benz

Not at all. They are weak because they were the most corrupted of all time and failed to prove they would do otherwise in the future. The libs are just disconnected and not trusted. Nothing to do with right-left-center. They need more than that. One thing for sure, the speculation is over. We will soon know the truth. Whether it is true or not.

NDP is not the voice of the medias.

According to the reasonning of several conservative fans, Harper can do his senate modifications now and go with an elected senate. Can't wait to see that happening.

Harper is weird. He is saying the truth in the campain and now that he won, he is lying. In the campain in Québec, his slogan was "notre région au pouvoir". Our region at the power. Which implies that Harper will govern for the benefit only of those who elected him. It didn't work out well at all. He lost half of the little he had in Québec. Neverthenless, he got a majority because of english canada. So I expect him to please only the english Canada. The Bloc won't be there to voice Québec's interests and the NDP won't be able to meet the expections of the Québécois You know what I think? Québec just sent the best trap ever to Ottawa. Harper doing what he wants and Layton on the frontline to respond... it is possible that it will promote sovereignty much better than the Bloc could do itself. Or I am totally wrong and Layton will meet the expections and in 4 years he becomes the next prime minister that will solve the constitution issue with Québec. I would not bet on that.

I also desagree. LPC and NDP are not in the same political area. LPC is centrist, NPD is leftist. It is a clear win for the righwing. No divided left. Except in Québec. The french were divided between NDP (left) and the Bloc (center-left). NDP won this time almost everywhere even if the Bloc was its closier challenger. With few exceptions. The english part of Quebec voted liberals again. So the map is very clear. Québec choosed the leftwing, english canada choosed the rightwing. Once again, even when Québec chooses a federalist party, it is at total opposite of the english canada's choice. The result looks a little bit like the 1993's scenario. Except that the players are the opposites. Québec shifted from the Bloc to NDP and the ROC shifted from the Libs to the Conservatives. Perhaps it is a normal cycle. I would never have bet on that though.

Nothing changed. Nothing at all. And it is exactly why people are voting anything. If you don't accomplish what you are up to, then leave the place for someone else. They won't be better than what you pretend to eventually do, but maybe they will do something that you are not doing and perhaps something will happen for once. It's my interpretation of the reasoning behind those sudden and fragile supports to ADQ, NDP and such.

I hope Layton will sue them.

It's the common frustration a Québécois will always feel as long as Québec won't be sovereign. It's the very same frustration the Québécois are having from the very start until now. Missing the point... really? I think it is done on purpose. It is also why those numbs call this federation a confederation. They understand what they want. It's a choice. Not a bad interpretation. The dynamic will be very different the day they will no longer be our sovereigns.

Who are the others? I see 2, 3 if we count the all the natives as one group. Europe with 20+ ==> win Canada with 2 ==> Fail Is that what you are saying? Europeans are better than canadians to make things workable?

Yes it is. We won't let you take parts of Québec without a fight. There will be blood. Have you ever talk with a real native? Do you have at least a tiny idea of what they want? So far, you don't.Unless you show me NOW what you could do better than Québec, your insults won't give you anything. You are pathetic. You don't care about the natives and after a winning yes, out of sudden, you beleive you can offer better than ever. They are not important to you until Québec votes yes. So basically, it is in their own advantage to vote yes either. Just in case you offer something better. You run your loudmouth regarding crown's protection. We rather do something and solve issues. We will see which strategy is the best. --- I forgot the word "will". We will protect them from the crown.

We protect them from the crown either. So far, the crown did not protect them. They rather oppressed them and reduced them to tiny reserves. Nice try. Your crown, you can stuck it up to... It goes on both sides. So the french outside Québec can choose the very same then. if you open the pandora box... Stay focus. You piss on their face, we threat them like nations. Shall I remind you that Canada is among the only 4 countries to reject the recognition of the natives' rights. The other 3 were USA, Australia and New Zealand. Oh my! 4 former british colonies.You were funny so far but, as you can see, we are not concerned. Don't even think about it. We will do fine with the natives. I'm not sure you can say the same with those outside Québec.

A lot of people in Québec wish more canadians share the same opinion as your's. Unfortunatly, whether it is this forum or the real life, it's not quiet there yet.

No, you actually entertain and feed them. Because you vouch for the worst option. Don't stop, scream it out loud. Go go go!

As of now, they are. Unless you manage to find a way to the other way around, it's not likely to happen. We are not fool. There are several reasons why the sovereignists signed the Paix des braves with the Cree. One of them was to ease the aftermath of a winning yes.

I am open to the idea that BC and the Prairies need two separate set of senators. However, you gonna have to do better than this kind of argumentation. For one, Ontario, Québec and Maritimes cannot, under any circumstances be considered one group named the eastern provinces. I understand that from a western point of view, it is easy to considere them all eastern, just as well as Québec may considere all provinces as of one monolitic english block, or how the maritimes considere the egoist others they helped to found and barely get a return on the investments and so on... The development of the Western block can indeed leads to the need of considering a 5th regions by dividing the west in two. I don't have a problem with the principle. But for your own good, the arguments have to be better than that. What I considere to be a good start would be that BC has a different context than the prairies. Pacific ocean, industries, economic dynamics, etc... I am sure you can develop on those. Much better than saying Ontario-Québec-Maritimes are a single eastern block, which would never be taken seriously.

Except for some details, you have an astonishing accurate understanding of what I said. Whether you agree or not with me, at least you get the point. Unlike most of the others who just see in me the axil of evil. However, what surprises me is you are offering more than we even ask. House of Common: I wouldn't change much of it. If Québec wants bigger representation, it has to get more people within its border. However, I want to reduce its power and its field. Several powers HC have should be exclusive to the provinces. If the other provinces do not agree, ok, at least, a province should have an opt out with full compensation on ALL federal programs. Senate: Equally divided in 4 regions as it is actually but, senators chosen by their regions, not the prime minister of the HC. Constitution: Québec nation recognized, Québec veto on constitutional changes and few other details. Because only Québec is in a position to represent the french anymore. What's done is done. We cannot reverse all the damages caused to the french outside Québec. Here we go, we don't ask more. You do a parallel with the natives. There some indeed. From my perspective, they are a different nation than the french and the english. Those are 3 different cultures/nations. I think they even should have a veto on some points of the constitution. I won't slide onto that though because I'm not sure which ones and I am not native myself. Natives are not in a situation as good as Québec is. Québec has its own government, its institutions, borders, etc... Québec has everything a sovereign nation needs to get independent. The natives are far from it and the are not all on the same level. The Cree in Québec are far more advanced in their political structures than the Mi'kmaqs. It is difficult at the moment to find a solution to everyone, the damages on some of them seem too deep. Perhaps a native assembly should be created. When I say they are not on the same level, I'll show you an example. When Québec negociated the Paix des braves with the Cree, they did it nation-to-nation. The Cree were able to speak as one nation. When Québec tried to do the same with the Innus, it got more complicated. Because the innu reserves are all independent and divided. They interect more one on one with Ottawa than within each others. They are not used to join their forces together and speak in one voice. Ottawa liked it this way. Divide and conquer. It was easier for Ottawa to get what it wants. I beleive the Innus are more united now but, they still don't have strong structures comparable to the Cree or of course, comparable to Québec. I think they wish they could all have their national assembly just like Québec does. A Cree assembly, a Innu assembly, an ojibway assembly and so on. If those assemblies are recognized by Canada, granted almost the same sovereignty the Cree got from Québec, they would probably very happy with that. Then and only then a participation to the House of Common will be taken more seriously by them. However, as I said, they are not all as advanced as the Cree are. For some, it may looks much more difficult to get there.

I am not unconfortable. I'm way more confortable than you are. You just fail to discuss the facts. We are not going anywhere with this. ---- And no one can blame you.--- If you are right. Then why Québec unanimously does not agree to the current constitution and yet, it is still active. This is not having a veto. Your failures are not funny anymore.

You are the best reason for Québec to leave. You are the best reason for Québec to reconsider leaving. Layton did not go far enough. When the conditions are met... yeah right! They never will because TROC is satisfied with the current system. It's not broke, don't fix it. Only Québec consideres it broken. So Layton is saying it won't come from him. Not enough for me. I want someone with balls.

There you go. You finally made a point. Indeed, some little details of the constitution might not concern Québec. They are rather the exceptions than the main rule. It was in the constitution? I thought it was just a federal program. The functionality of the federal system, what powers belong to who, anything regarding individual rights, and so on. But indeed, Québec does not need a veto on another province's name and such sort of things that Québec does not matter a single bit. You can remove the Québec veto for those tiny details if it pleases you.

You cannot guarantee Newfoundland won't leave either. Too speculative and hypothetical. You are wasting your time for someone who don't really care.

You don't offer sh-t for centuries and now, out of the sudden, because Québec leaves and you offer them what, mountains of money? What do you think you can offer after a winning yes that would make change their mind. Go on! --- You lost track of the conversation. I am not the one who brought that up. --- It is not extraordinary, it is a normal thing that normal nations expect from a union. We need it because you proved us that we need it. In 1982 you modified the constitution without us, making these modifications we do not agree and never cared about the consequences ever since. It is simple and clear. You did it once, we do not want you can do it again. We can no longer blind trust you. You should have think about it before you decide to change it on the basis of "eh, only Québec does not agree, the only french province, who cares! They are not important!"

But then Harper can do it even if he does not have a majority. If it was something he wanted to, he would have done it long time ago. He rather used the system in his own advantage.

Why would they. They would lose everything they got since 2002. Are you too naive to beleive the natives feel they belong to the english canadians? La Paix des braves - 2002

Then it was not addressing to you. I said that to gambino in the context where he denied what anglo authorities did such in Manitoba, NS and PEI. Do you deny it too or you are rather from elsewhere? You jump into the sandbox but I have no idea where you from and what ancestors you are talking about. I don't know you Molly. Help me a little bit. If you are from a Vietnamese family and your parents were born in Vietnam, you won't feel concern at all and that is perfectly understandable. If you are in Vancouver, you adopt the culture of the english canadian and respect their social choices and laws. Except perhaps for some individual or familial ones as long as they are not in contradiction of the laws. The people choosing to come in Canada have to assimilate canadian values. I will give you one example. Several women in Egypt have their genitals cut and until very recently, the government didn't do much to stop and ban that. The people coming from Egypt and wanting to live in Canada cannot expect the canadians would allow that to happen here. No matter how open you want to be regarding individual choices, there are limits. Same goes for those who wish to force their daughters to mary a man chosen by the family rather than by the girl herself. Arranged marriages are very popular and tolerated in several foreign cultures. In Canada, it must not be tolerated.Although the french and english cultures are very similar if we compare them with other ones around the world, there are some differences. We dicussed about one that occured no long ago regarding the religion weapon in public schools. English and French are at the opposite ends on that matter. The normal thing would be that we respect each others and either the rule is rejected, or it is applied only in the english provinces. No, the english want to force it in the throat of the french. The french are asking that the rules are no longer set by the english majority only. It is a legitimated claim. When I say english majority, I say english majority. If you feel you don't fit in that group, I say ok. But what else can I say. Do you pretend you are part of a third group that is significant enough either in the actual country and canadian's history to be considered a nation that must have a say into the constitution other than the english or the french? Beside the natives, I fail to see. You gonna have to explain me what and how you considere yourself.

Neither do we. The notion of Québec nation is based on the culture, if you adopt the culture, you become a Québécois. Therefore, you must question yourself. If we are not like you, we are tribal. Then the rest of the world is doing tribalism. This is how you look man. At some point, you gonna have to look something else than your belly button. You are not alone on this earth. Explain me what is wrong with the european approach. Also, all the new immigrants are coming here because they choosed this country. It is normal that they have to assimilate to the country that accepted them. The french canadians are founders as well as the english canadian. Considering the french like immigrants that have to be flooded by the majority, it is not valid. You brought it up. Don't you think you can make the difference? What kind of input you want the french to receive from your side. That only french bashers speak out loud? I don't pretend I can predict the future. I doubt very much we can put everyone in the same bag. Some will say good riddence, others may have another opinion. I think it is useless to speculate too much. Fine with me. In the case of no union scenario, that is for sure. However, it is not a matter of giving and generosity. What belongs to who. Miss? Unless you build a wall of shame, nothing will change. You will be able to come visit your friends just as well as you can go the the states. English canada might be bitter for a little while. However, you will have to think of the future. Do you want to entertain anger just because the Québécois wants to be a country? Is it what you want the world to see from you? The topic has been on the agenda for so long, it can also be for many a simple "ah well, let's move on something else at last". I do. My parents for example. I do not pretend it will be easy. But keep mind something. For once, TROC will not be able to get away by saying no and Québec to be left alone. Negociations will have to take place.You will not be able to pretend you didn't know. You have been warned several times for decades. I am also doing it right now. Québec will get sovereign with or without Canada.