marcus

Did you know that the ICC is already investigating Hamas for war crimes? If they are found to be guilty, then I have no problem accepting their conclusion. Will you accept ICJ's ruling in regards to Israel and the allegations of genocide? Surprise me with your answer.

If Israel is found guilty of committing genocide by the ICJ, I wonder how the zionist defenders here will respond.

You could be fighting for international law and not advocating for those who commit war crimes and genocide. Or not. You don't know the meaning of genocide, do you?

"From the river to the sea. Palestine will be free." Is this a genocidal call for the eradication of Jews? I suppose it can, based on intention and definition. Many I have spoken to, here in Canada, who are calling for a ceasefire and the liberation of Palestinians who have lived under the brutal occupation have this view point: In 2021, the Palestinian-American writer Yousef Munayyer argued that those who saw genocidal ambition in the phrase, or indeed an unambiguous desire for the destruction of Israel, did so due to their own Islamophobia. It was instead, he argued, merely a way to express a desire for a state in which “Palestinians can live in their homeland as free and equal citizens, neither dominated by others nor dominating them”. Ref: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/from-the-river-to-the-sea-where-does-the-slogan-come-from-and-what-does-it-mean-israel-palestine

Have you ever looked at Likud's charter? You should. Let me know if you're okay with it, and whether you think they are genocidal. BUT! Don't let the 25,000+ civilians killed, and 3/4 of Gazans displaced to distract you from your opinion! The Likud party has vowed to never allow a Palestinian state. They have also vowed to establish a greater Israel: between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

Remember when there was a big debate on here and in the mainstream media about whether Israel had bombed Al-Ahli hospital or whether it was a misfired Hamas rocket? Interesting that many commentators haven’t revisited that debate since.

Sure. I hear you. My biggest worry is that Israel will drag Biden and the other AIPAC funded U.S. politicians into a regional war. This has the potential of getting really ugly. However, the Israeli lobby doesn't have the same control over the American people's consent like they used to. The narrative is no longer monopolized. I just don't see Americans accepting another war.

Whatever makes you feel better about supporting a racist, ethnocratic, morally corrupt apartheid state. You know that Biden and the other corrupt politicians are getting money for their support? What's your excuse?

A racist, colonialist government cannot be left to make the right decision. Not in this day and age, where we've set boundaries on what's right and wrong. At least, here in North America, we've acknowledged our wrong doings and are not treating the indigenous population the way Israel has been and Apartheid South Africa did. The solution is what was done to Apartheid South Africa which has a lot of parallels with Apartheid Israel. The solution is boycott, divestment and sanctions, while pressuring our governments to follow through with demanding everyone to follow international law. For the first time I feel that it's the beginning of the end of Apartheid Israel, as more and more Jews outside of Israel are refusing to associate with Zionism and Israel. Also, the younger generation in the West have a better understanding of what's really happening there. All thanks to the availability of information outside of the mainstream media.

That's BS. Everything points to the violation of international law. Are you in denial or just ignorant? Previous investigations on smaller attacks on Gaza, by various organizations, including the UN Goldstone Report, HRW, Amnesty, Btselem, and others have concluded that Israel has violated international law numerous times by killing indiscriminately, collective punishment, blocking vital shipments entering Gaza, including medicine, using Palestinians as human shield, targeting reporters, using white phosphorus on children, attacking schools and hospitals, and numerous other violations. You being okay with that puts you on the shitty human list with CdnFox and Nationalist.

I get a kick out of morally corrupt, bigoted people who call the 8000+ killed, and the over 30,000 maimed children terrorists. Thumbs up buddy! 👍

First of all, you're gross for being okay with that. Second, it's now obvious that Israel's objective is not to get rid of Hamas. Their objective is to get rid of Gazans and remove them from the land. Are you going to support Israel's ethnic cleansing? Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has told his supporters that he is working on finding countries ready to "absorb" Palestinians from Gaza. The Israeli newspaper Israel Hayom said Netanyahu made the comments at a meeting of his Likud party on Monday, in which he sought to clarify Israel's plans for after the war had ended. "Our problem is countries that are ready to absorb them and we are working on it," Netanyahu said. "The world is already discussing the possibilities of voluntary immigration,” he said, adding that a team must be established to “ensure that those who want to leave Gaza to a third country can do so. It needs to be settled. It has strategic importance for the day after the war." His words align with statements made by other senior Likud figures. Former Likud minister Danny Danon, for example, has publicly called on western states to accept refugees from Gaza. Ref Fxck Netanyahu and other genocidal war criminals!

There are two types of Israeli supporters: 1) Those who may not be fully informed and believe a narrative that portrays Israel as a victim defending itself against perceived threats. 2) Those who are well aware that Israel is a colonialist, racist, genocidal apartheid state with parallels to Apartheid South Africa. Despite this awareness, they actively support Israel and deliberately spread misinformation. This group knowingly engages in deception, contributing to a distorted understanding of the situation. Their actions is driven by racist motivations. Which one are you @CdnFox?

Do you support IDF's actions against Gaza?

To who? Where? Lots was said. Most of it has been backtracked by the Israeli government itself, after no proof was shown. But not after impressionable people like yourself was duped by the lies. See the video above for proof of just some of the lies. Who said I support Hamas? Just because I support Palestinian people and their right to defend themselves, it doesn't mean that I support Hamas or their tactics. Do you support the IDF and their tactics?

You think Israel would hesitate to show proof, if there was actual proof? Stop championing fake news.

First of all, Hamas should be tried for whatever they did on October 7th. One thing we do know is that no one has shown proof of any of the above (burning babies and nails). Feel free to share actual proof though. Second, look at the video of Israelis showing their psychopathic tendencies. It's a sick culture. If you think their reaction is normal, then you're not right in the head either.

A societal sickness, rooted in decades of Israeli racism and Jewish supremacy, has exploded into the open after October 7, as Israelis of all walks of life took to social media to mock the suffering of Palestinians, flaunt war crimes, and clamor for genocide. Have a look at Max Blumenthal (self-hating Jew) report on the Israeli societal sickness.

Are people still defending Israel? Israelis didn't get to where they are without decades of conditioning. Israel's society is ill. I mean, who wants to defend this racist, psychopathic society? It's no wonder why more and more Jews not living in Israel are speaking out against Israel. Who here supports this? Age restricted:

Stop embarrassing yourself. I have yet to see one post from you, where you are not trying to spread misinformation. Now you're doubling down, after being proven wrong. By the way: Indiscriminate attacks strike military objects and protected objects alike, thus violating the principle of distinction between combatants and protected civilians.[note 1] Contrary to direct attacks against civilian objects, where the attacker is deliberately trying to hit a civilian object (e.g. to spread terror and break the morale of the population), indiscriminate attacks imply that the attacker is indifferent as to whether the targets are military or not[6] and conducts the operation without regard for any effect it may have on the civilians.[7 In case you forgot: Source

Reality says something else: Source

How would they destroy Israel? Israel doesn't want the deal with the Palestinian refugees they drove out of what is now Israel. Okay, I get that. But did you know that Israel doesn't want them in the occupied territories either? I'm talking about the over 2 million Palestinian refugees living in the surrounding areas, driven out by Israel during the Nakba. Israel does not allow any Palestinians to move to the West Bank or the Gaza Strip. From Wikipedia: Restrictions on the movement of Palestinians in the Israeli-occupied territories by Israel is an issue in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. According to B'Tselem, following the 1967 war, the occupied territories were proclaimed closed military zones. In 1972, general exit orders were issued allowing residents of those territories to move freely between the West Bank, Israel and the Gaza Strip. Do you know why this is happening? I can tell you why it's happening. It's because Israel wants control over all of Palestine. This is why they encourage Jewish settlers to move into the occupied territories and forbid any Palestinians to move back to their own land. Are you okay with that? In case you're wondering, this is called ethnic cleansing. Before the mass zionist immigration into Palestine, Jews and Muslims lived in relative peace in Arab countries. Jews were definitely a lot safer in the Arab countries than they were in European countries. Once Europe (and U.S.) decided that they don't want to deal with the European Jews who were being driven out, and after they created laws against Jews migrating to their countries, they pushed them towards Palestine. When an influx of people migrated to the area, tensions started forming. When Zionist militias started attacking Palesitnians, tension increased even more, and this tension extended to the Arab countries with Jewish populations. The idea of Zionism having their own land could have been a beautiful story, if there wasn't another group of people already living there, and these people were not killed or driven out of their lands.

You are right. They are Muslim-centric and I do have that in mind whenever I see or read anything from AJ. In the case of the video I shared and the information in it, I felt comfortable enough to share it. The reason I shared that particular video was because it was presented well and I didn't see anything in their information that I found to be wrong. I find AJ and a few other sources to be an interesting insight into other perspectives, outside of the mainstream media in the West, which itself has a lot of issues sharing uncensored information, without the information going through a process so that special interest groups are not triggered. This goes for both Left and Right media outlets. They are not treated as bad as those in the West Bank, and for sure not as bad as those in Gaza, but they are second class citizens. For example: There is no freedom of movement, as far as where they can live, because they are not Jewish. The allocation of infrastructure funds to predominately Muslim neighbourhoods is different than Jewish neighbourhoods. If a Muslim Israeli gets married to someone outside of Israel, the Muslim Israeli is not permitted to bring their spouse to Israel. Whereas, someone who is Jewish, with no family connection to Israel is able to move to Israel, without issues. Then we have the Palestinians, both Muslims and Christians, who live in the occupied territories (WB/Gaza/Jerusalem). The the brutal, inhumane treatment of them is something that is not excusable. From my understanding, Christians and Muslims get along well in Lebanon as well. Despite the civil wars in the past. Right now, for example, there are Lebanese political alliances formed of Christians and Muslims vs another political party formed of Muslims and Christians. Of course, there are many layers in their political story and history, like for example you have the Shiite Muslims vs Sunni Muslims (who are mostly Palestinian refugees driven out of Palestine by Israel). The Iranian backed Hezbollah, is a different story. They are given permission to be in the South, but are not allowed to run for office. They're kind of a state within a state. It's amazing that you're getting that kind of insight and perspective. Outside of studying the region, my own personal connection to the Middle East are relationships I have had with Iranians and Arabs. Some as friends in school, and the other was a romantic relationship with a atheist Persian woman. What they all had in common was that they were against the governments of the place they were born in. Another was that they understood the plight of the Palestinians who have experienced injustice for close to a century and that injustice is being supported by Western governments. I find that religion can be good for some people who need structure and organization. Many people who have hit rock bottom have been saved by religion. They've been able to better themselves. I agree that the problem with religion can be that it "gives some people conviction to do bad things". This is how Hamas recruits the impressionable young people. They take advantage of the hopelessness they have, the anger they have towards Israel (rightfully), and recruit kids. I haven't verified this, but I heard that the average age of the attackers in Israel on October 7th was around 23 years old. These are young people who have known nothing but occupation in an open air prison. When you see nothing ever improving, and you have Israel, backed by the West, flexing their military might every few years, not allowing people to move freely, AND you have Arab countries abandoning them politically, it's easy to turn to whoever is willing to speak up for them. Personally, I could care less for religion. It's not for me. I also think that the Israel/Palestine situation was not born due to religion. To me, it's a case of the British, as the occupying power, forcing a population to move to a region which was inhabited by another group of people. It's colonialism to the core. The British and the U.S. created anti-Jewish laws to stop their migration to their countries. It was wrong to push Europe's 'problem' onto the Palestinians. However, you can't turn back to the clock. Israel is here to stay. In my opinion, this is the only way forward: Follow international law, and if any side decides not to, there should be consequences. It's time for the U.S. to stop supporting Israel, if they are going to continue to expand the illegal settlements. This is something that Bush Sr. attempted doing, before he was ousted by Clinton. Us people in the West need to pay attention to lobby groups and their funding of our politicians. We need to pressure our governments to stop allowing special interest groups, like Saudi, Israel, China (in Canada), the military industrial complex, pharma, wall street, unions and others not to control the decision making of politicians. It doesn't matter if you're a leftist or a rights, it's in our best interest to pay attention to our politicians and how they are being funded. Israel has the military might to defend itself. They also have the U.S., ready to step in, in case a country like Iran decides to go beyond the financial support they send to Palestinian groups. Iran is not stupid enough to do something like that. Israel is not going anywhere, and I'm certain Palestinians have accepted that. But Israel has gotten out of control. They're drunk with power and continue to push the limits. They continue to expand and annex Palestinian land, not allow a real, just Palestinian state, and they continue to do what they want, because our politicians do not have the backbone to stand up to them.

First, I appreciate the respectful tone. Second, I think it's very difficult to debate this topic, when we both have different narratives that we base our views on. Having studied this area of the world for decades, and having had conversations with people from both sides, I feel very confident in my perspective. However, I am always willing to learn if someone is able to show me where I am wrong, or what I am missing. So please go ahead and give me some reading/viewing material. Because it's important to backup what we say with citations to respectable sources. I'll start. Would you be willing to watch the following and let me know your thoughts? It touches on the refugee question. By the way, these refugees are part of the original 700,000 Palestinians who were driven their homes in what is now Israel. The right if return to their homes is still part of international law and resolutions 242 and 181. Again, share any of your sources, so I can understand your perspective better. Let me know your thoughts on this. I hope you're able up watch it: https://youtu.be/MknerYjob0w?si=EUO-tdGe24H5GEmq

How did you come to 500? Why are you so sure about those numbers? Israel has attacked Gaza 5 other times since 2006. None have been as devastating as this attack, however, something similar happened. They indiscriminatory killed civilians, the health ministry released numbers, and get this, at the end, their numbers were verified to be pretty much the same as the count given by them during the attacks. Since they have been consistent with the numbers in the past, this means that they don't have a habit of inflating the numbers. Here is information on how the numbers are verified later on. What is the source of the data? Information about occupation and conflict-related casualties is regularly collected by OCHA field staff and entered into OCHA’s Protection of Civilians database, following review and verification. As a rule, for an incident to be entered into the database it needs to be validated by at least two independent and reliable sources. Exceptions to this rule include incidents resulting in Israeli injuries, where information is typically based on media reports. Although Gaza has been under Hamas’ rule since 2007, this is the first time that the reliability of the enclave’s health ministry has been so prominently called into question. News outlets and international organizations and agencies have long relied on Israeli and Palestinian government sources for casualty figures. While they do so partly because they are unable to independently verify these figures themselves, it’s also because these statistics have proven accurate in the past. “They have access methodologically to sources of information that nobody else has—access to data from morgues, from hospitals—and that’s ultimately going to be the most reliable way to count casualties,” ... “there have been no large discrepancies between those numbers and the numbers produced by the Gaza health ministry.” Source Really? "Greasy terrorist supporter"? I neither support Hamas or Israel. So I am not a terrorist supporter. Listen: I am going to let that comment slide and approach you without going off on you - Let me explain to you where I stand, and if you're going to ignore it and misrepresent who I am and where I stand, then there is no point in having a debate. Numerous times I have said "fxck Hamas". Do a search in the forum and you will see this. I have said that BOTH Hamas and Israel should go in front of the International Criminal Court, like so many others have had in the past, and let them bring their own defense of the accusations. If they have broken human rights laws that all countries are signatory to, then they must be punished. This started when the English thought it was okay to allow a foreign group of people to start the displacement of the indigenous Palestinians in favour of European Jews. It started when instead of allowing the European Jews to move to England and United States, they created laws to forbid them, and instead they shipped them over to (British Mandate) Palestine. That's when it all started. Before you bring in the tired old comments about the land belonging to the Jews, have a listen to two Jews talking about that topic. One is a rabid Zionist and another is a child of holocaust survivor and a scholar who specializes in that region. I may be considered an agnostic, as science has not been able to answer so many questions, but I am definitely far from having any religious affiliation. So I hope you take that comment and avoid misrepresenting who I am or what I believe in going forward. Is that something you can do?