marcus

Reality says something else: Source

How would they destroy Israel? Israel doesn't want the deal with the Palestinian refugees they drove out of what is now Israel. Okay, I get that. But did you know that Israel doesn't want them in the occupied territories either? I'm talking about the over 2 million Palestinian refugees living in the surrounding areas, driven out by Israel during the Nakba. Israel does not allow any Palestinians to move to the West Bank or the Gaza Strip. From Wikipedia: Restrictions on the movement of Palestinians in the Israeli-occupied territories by Israel is an issue in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. According to B'Tselem, following the 1967 war, the occupied territories were proclaimed closed military zones. In 1972, general exit orders were issued allowing residents of those territories to move freely between the West Bank, Israel and the Gaza Strip. Do you know why this is happening? I can tell you why it's happening. It's because Israel wants control over all of Palestine. This is why they encourage Jewish settlers to move into the occupied territories and forbid any Palestinians to move back to their own land. Are you okay with that? In case you're wondering, this is called ethnic cleansing. Before the mass zionist immigration into Palestine, Jews and Muslims lived in relative peace in Arab countries. Jews were definitely a lot safer in the Arab countries than they were in European countries. Once Europe (and U.S.) decided that they don't want to deal with the European Jews who were being driven out, and after they created laws against Jews migrating to their countries, they pushed them towards Palestine. When an influx of people migrated to the area, tensions started forming. When Zionist militias started attacking Palesitnians, tension increased even more, and this tension extended to the Arab countries with Jewish populations. The idea of Zionism having their own land could have been a beautiful story, if there wasn't another group of people already living there, and these people were not killed or driven out of their lands.

You are right. They are Muslim-centric and I do have that in mind whenever I see or read anything from AJ. In the case of the video I shared and the information in it, I felt comfortable enough to share it. The reason I shared that particular video was because it was presented well and I didn't see anything in their information that I found to be wrong. I find AJ and a few other sources to be an interesting insight into other perspectives, outside of the mainstream media in the West, which itself has a lot of issues sharing uncensored information, without the information going through a process so that special interest groups are not triggered. This goes for both Left and Right media outlets. They are not treated as bad as those in the West Bank, and for sure not as bad as those in Gaza, but they are second class citizens. For example: There is no freedom of movement, as far as where they can live, because they are not Jewish. The allocation of infrastructure funds to predominately Muslim neighbourhoods is different than Jewish neighbourhoods. If a Muslim Israeli gets married to someone outside of Israel, the Muslim Israeli is not permitted to bring their spouse to Israel. Whereas, someone who is Jewish, with no family connection to Israel is able to move to Israel, without issues. Then we have the Palestinians, both Muslims and Christians, who live in the occupied territories (WB/Gaza/Jerusalem). The the brutal, inhumane treatment of them is something that is not excusable. From my understanding, Christians and Muslims get along well in Lebanon as well. Despite the civil wars in the past. Right now, for example, there are Lebanese political alliances formed of Christians and Muslims vs another political party formed of Muslims and Christians. Of course, there are many layers in their political story and history, like for example you have the Shiite Muslims vs Sunni Muslims (who are mostly Palestinian refugees driven out of Palestine by Israel). The Iranian backed Hezbollah, is a different story. They are given permission to be in the South, but are not allowed to run for office. They're kind of a state within a state. It's amazing that you're getting that kind of insight and perspective. Outside of studying the region, my own personal connection to the Middle East are relationships I have had with Iranians and Arabs. Some as friends in school, and the other was a romantic relationship with a atheist Persian woman. What they all had in common was that they were against the governments of the place they were born in. Another was that they understood the plight of the Palestinians who have experienced injustice for close to a century and that injustice is being supported by Western governments. I find that religion can be good for some people who need structure and organization. Many people who have hit rock bottom have been saved by religion. They've been able to better themselves. I agree that the problem with religion can be that it "gives some people conviction to do bad things". This is how Hamas recruits the impressionable young people. They take advantage of the hopelessness they have, the anger they have towards Israel (rightfully), and recruit kids. I haven't verified this, but I heard that the average age of the attackers in Israel on October 7th was around 23 years old. These are young people who have known nothing but occupation in an open air prison. When you see nothing ever improving, and you have Israel, backed by the West, flexing their military might every few years, not allowing people to move freely, AND you have Arab countries abandoning them politically, it's easy to turn to whoever is willing to speak up for them. Personally, I could care less for religion. It's not for me. I also think that the Israel/Palestine situation was not born due to religion. To me, it's a case of the British, as the occupying power, forcing a population to move to a region which was inhabited by another group of people. It's colonialism to the core. The British and the U.S. created anti-Jewish laws to stop their migration to their countries. It was wrong to push Europe's 'problem' onto the Palestinians. However, you can't turn back to the clock. Israel is here to stay. In my opinion, this is the only way forward: Follow international law, and if any side decides not to, there should be consequences. It's time for the U.S. to stop supporting Israel, if they are going to continue to expand the illegal settlements. This is something that Bush Sr. attempted doing, before he was ousted by Clinton. Us people in the West need to pay attention to lobby groups and their funding of our politicians. We need to pressure our governments to stop allowing special interest groups, like Saudi, Israel, China (in Canada), the military industrial complex, pharma, wall street, unions and others not to control the decision making of politicians. It doesn't matter if you're a leftist or a rights, it's in our best interest to pay attention to our politicians and how they are being funded. Israel has the military might to defend itself. They also have the U.S., ready to step in, in case a country like Iran decides to go beyond the financial support they send to Palestinian groups. Iran is not stupid enough to do something like that. Israel is not going anywhere, and I'm certain Palestinians have accepted that. But Israel has gotten out of control. They're drunk with power and continue to push the limits. They continue to expand and annex Palestinian land, not allow a real, just Palestinian state, and they continue to do what they want, because our politicians do not have the backbone to stand up to them.

First, I appreciate the respectful tone. Second, I think it's very difficult to debate this topic, when we both have different narratives that we base our views on. Having studied this area of the world for decades, and having had conversations with people from both sides, I feel very confident in my perspective. However, I am always willing to learn if someone is able to show me where I am wrong, or what I am missing. So please go ahead and give me some reading/viewing material. Because it's important to backup what we say with citations to respectable sources. I'll start. Would you be willing to watch the following and let me know your thoughts? It touches on the refugee question. By the way, these refugees are part of the original 700,000 Palestinians who were driven their homes in what is now Israel. The right if return to their homes is still part of international law and resolutions 242 and 181. Again, share any of your sources, so I can understand your perspective better. Let me know your thoughts on this. I hope you're able up watch it: https://youtu.be/MknerYjob0w?si=EUO-tdGe24H5GEmq

How did you come to 500? Why are you so sure about those numbers? Israel has attacked Gaza 5 other times since 2006. None have been as devastating as this attack, however, something similar happened. They indiscriminatory killed civilians, the health ministry released numbers, and get this, at the end, their numbers were verified to be pretty much the same as the count given by them during the attacks. Since they have been consistent with the numbers in the past, this means that they don't have a habit of inflating the numbers. Here is information on how the numbers are verified later on. What is the source of the data? Information about occupation and conflict-related casualties is regularly collected by OCHA field staff and entered into OCHA’s Protection of Civilians database, following review and verification. As a rule, for an incident to be entered into the database it needs to be validated by at least two independent and reliable sources. Exceptions to this rule include incidents resulting in Israeli injuries, where information is typically based on media reports. Although Gaza has been under Hamas’ rule since 2007, this is the first time that the reliability of the enclave’s health ministry has been so prominently called into question. News outlets and international organizations and agencies have long relied on Israeli and Palestinian government sources for casualty figures. While they do so partly because they are unable to independently verify these figures themselves, it’s also because these statistics have proven accurate in the past. “They have access methodologically to sources of information that nobody else has—access to data from morgues, from hospitals—and that’s ultimately going to be the most reliable way to count casualties,” ... “there have been no large discrepancies between those numbers and the numbers produced by the Gaza health ministry.” Source Really? "Greasy terrorist supporter"? I neither support Hamas or Israel. So I am not a terrorist supporter. Listen: I am going to let that comment slide and approach you without going off on you - Let me explain to you where I stand, and if you're going to ignore it and misrepresent who I am and where I stand, then there is no point in having a debate. Numerous times I have said "fxck Hamas". Do a search in the forum and you will see this. I have said that BOTH Hamas and Israel should go in front of the International Criminal Court, like so many others have had in the past, and let them bring their own defense of the accusations. If they have broken human rights laws that all countries are signatory to, then they must be punished. This started when the English thought it was okay to allow a foreign group of people to start the displacement of the indigenous Palestinians in favour of European Jews. It started when instead of allowing the European Jews to move to England and United States, they created laws to forbid them, and instead they shipped them over to (British Mandate) Palestine. That's when it all started. Before you bring in the tired old comments about the land belonging to the Jews, have a listen to two Jews talking about that topic. One is a rabid Zionist and another is a child of holocaust survivor and a scholar who specializes in that region. I may be considered an agnostic, as science has not been able to answer so many questions, but I am definitely far from having any religious affiliation. So I hope you take that comment and avoid misrepresenting who I am or what I believe in going forward. Is that something you can do?

You are weak at having a debate and you lack knowledge of history. Either that or you are purposely lying to push your racist agenda. Let this "kid" show you how: Symptoms of a sociopath may include disregard for others, a lack of empathy, and dishonest behavior. Say cheese, sociopath. No. You can't go one post without spreading misinformation. Israel is an occupying force and the occupied are permitted under international law to defend themselves. Which is what Hamas did. However, there are rules under international law that we must abide by. One of them being that the targeting of civilians is not okay. Not okay for Hamas to do it, and not okay for Israel to do it. Of course, just like other slimy Zionists, you play the double standard game. You want Zionists to be above the law. Majority of the world, including a large number of Jews will no longer stand for that. The truth stops when you press reply.

If you want to be taken seriously, then you need to do two things: 1) Stop showing a sociopath's tendencies, by excusing 6000 innocent children being blown into pieces by Israel. 2) You should try being honest. This did not start on October 7th. Your way of thinking should not be normalized.

You being okay with killing over 6000 children is inhumane and disgusting. No I don't. I also don't think Israel should get away for killing 100 times more Palestinian civilians, which has been going on well before Oct. 7th. I don't think Israel should get away with turning off electricity, water and food to the occupied Gaza. I also don't think Israel should get away with their other crimes, which include land annexation, kidnapping children and putting them through military courts, and then held without due process. I think both Israel and Hamas should stand in front of International Court of Justice and pay for their crimes. Just like the Nazis did in the Nuremberg trial. What about you? Do you believe Israel and Hamas should go through trials?

According to you, the 6000+ Palestinian children ripped into pieces, heads blown apart are worth the few Hamas members killed. Your support of inhumanity explains a lot. That's how zionists roll.

I don't understand what you're talking about. It makes no sense. It's like you're stitching together Israeli talking points and Zionist Christian memes that are fed to you on Facebook, and then sharing them as your opinion. You should try understanding the history of the region the good old fashion way: Reading and researching the history. Feel free to get this from various perspectives. It's just that it looks really bad when you want to have a strong opinion about something, when you clearly don't know enough about. If you don't like reading, here us at least a mainstream video documentary. I urge you to educate yourself on this sophisticated history: https://youtu.be/RW105kjNtho?si=M9yxHLKqXNtmRGk7

Journalists employed by the media conglomerate overseeing CTV, CP24, and BNN Bloomberg allege that the organization is manipulating information concerning Israel's actions in Gaza, distorting the truth. "Journalists said these directives are examples of a wider culture at Bell Media, describing extremely tense workplaces and a “culture of fear.” Editors have told journalists not to cover rallies supporting Palestinian freedom and calling for a ceasefire unless they cause significant disruption to the public. That move was “cowardly and one-sided,” one of the journalists said. Multiple journalists who spoke to The Breach said there are plenty of employees who want to do truthful, informative work about Gaza, but they’re afraid of repercussions from management if they push back internally. They also said that editors and producers have said they’re scared of the backlash from higher-ups if their work draws criticism from right-wing pro-Israel groups like Honest Reporting Canada. " Link What's going on in media (see the report above), Hollywood (see actors being removed from projects for speaking for Palestinians), and academia are unfortunately reinforcing or even proving true antisemitic tropes.

You should be ashamed of yourself for quoting the Bible. What would Jesus say or do if he saw that you're advocating Israel's killing of innocent people, in his name? It's so disgusting seeing people who call themselves religious and advocating for the deaths of people. This goes out to the so-called Muslims who advocate for Hamas and other terror groups, and it goes out to the so-called Christians who sit back cheering for Israel's atrocities.

Your kind of thinking is becoming obsolete. It has no basis in humanity. It has no basis in international law. Your advocacy is archaic, inhumane and is being rejected. I don't care for Hamas. They're just a tool used by Zionists to try to justify and explain away the atrocities being committed by the vile state of Israel against the Palestinians. Israel's inhumane treatment of people is worse than the Chinese government's treatment of people. Israel is worse than the Russian government. They are killing more innocent people than the Iranian government. Israel is the enemy of humanity. My buddies are the innocent civilians that are being killed. You may have racist views of Palestinians, and want to advocate for their death, but I won't and I will continue to speak out against advocates of death and destruction.

Hi Betsy. Except that when you flatten blocks after blocks, killing thousands of civilians, including over 5000 children, then this is not called targeted killing. It's called genocide. I hope you will find it in yourself to call out Israel's immoral behaviour. Be a better person.

I am teaching you and I am countering misinformation. It's a 2 in 1 value pack. Only those who want to control the narrative within a narrow view would say "history is irrelevant". Israel has been "mowing the lawn" in Gaza since 2006. They have been breaking international law for decades. These are not opinions. These are facts. If winning means killing thousands of people, including over 5000 children, then I suppose that's a win for Israel. However, Israel is losing the PR battle. They can no longer control the flow of information, as people get their information outside of mainstream media. The videos of the indiscriminate killing of civilians are reaching the western audience and this is why you're seeing a very large number of westerners speaking out against Israel's atrocities. The only thing Israel has left are the politicians who are still playing by the rules. Biden would not want to lose the millions dollars in donations from Pro-Israeli lobby groups, like AIPAC. That's all that's left. The corrupt politicians. Let's see if westerners will remember the support this vile, ugly country received by their governments, once elections come around. This is the only hope Israel has; Which is that people will forget or people will have no options as far as who they want to vote for. Democrats? Republicans? Liberals? Conservatives?

Adorable. The anti-semite card. Being anti-Israel is not anti-semitic. It doesn't matter how hard you try to push for it. This is why there are millions of Jews who are against zionism and against what Israel has been doing to the Palestinians. We play with current rules. Not uncivilized rules. If someone came to your house and tried to take over your house, saying that their ancestors lived there thousands of years ago, you would probably laugh at the idea, right? What if they came with guns, and backed up by an army? Then you'd be Palestinian. The Ottoman census of 1878 indicated the following demographics for the three districts that best approximated what later became Mandatory Palestine: Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region) All of this BS about ancestorial homes is just that: BS. The Palestinians are closer to the Israelites than the European Jews who migrated to Palestine. It's so god damn stupid to try to use the argument of ancestorial land.

This is the type of toxic and immoral thought that should be challenged. Is this how the Nazis explained away the killing of Jews? "Oh well. Collateral damages are inevitable." No Betsy. What Israel has done to the Palestinians should NOT be inevitable.

No one should care to listen to someone who doesn't know the history of the topic they're talking about, or is not willing to learn from those who spend a life time studying the topic, or someone who purposely leaves out major factors, because they lack integrity and honesty.

I am opposed to the ideology of the formation of a state if it means that they're going to displace another group of people who are already living in that land. Why are you not against that? I don't get it. I mean, at least, despite the horrible things we have done to the indigenous population in Canada, they are at least able to live anywhere they want to. It's not like we've created bantustans that Apartheid South Africa created and Israel has created in the occupied territories. Zionism and Settler Colonialism This illiberal and anti-democratic genesis of Zionism is intertwined with colonialism and imperialism. Zionism is not merely a discourse but also a set of institutions and practices. At the turn of the 19th century “colonialism” was not yet an infamous word. Unlike today’s Zionists who seek to deny origins, early Zionists were happy to own it. In 1898 the 2nd Zionist Congress established the “Jewish Colonial Trust Limited”, out of which the “Jewish National Fund” was later founded in 1901. These are institutions whose mission was to colonize Palestine and uproot the non-Jewish inhabitants. Ref The kind of ideas and actions taken in the name of Zionism was once accepted, because that's how colonialists rolled. The British, the Turks, the Americans, the French, etc. etc. all practiced colonialism. However, in this day and age, it's no longer acceptable. This is why there is a growing number of Jews living outside of Israel, especially young Jews, who cannot and will not accept what Israel is doing.

Trudeau and the Liberals failed miserably on so many points. So as an environmentalist, who will you be voting for?

It's unfortunate to see that your breakdown of the history of region is missing some really important points, like the Nakba in 1948 and the ongoing land grab. Just in 1948, over 500 Palestinian towns and villages were demolished and the people who were living in them were killed or driven out. Over 600,000 people were displaced. People who now live outside of their homes in refugee camps in the occupied territories and in neighbouring countries. I mean, that's a pretty significant point in history to just not include in your understanding of the history and the present situation. It's also disappointing to see that you're willing to gloss over the conditions of the Palestinians they've been forced to live in, because "they were working in Israel". Yay? Of course you're going to have the narrative you do, when you miss some important parts of history, and the vile conditions the Palestinians have been forced to live in, before and after the first intifada. People need to be a little more educated on things they are so passionate about. I recommend reading a few books on the region. I recommend books by Israeli historians Benny Morris and Ilan Pappe.

Fxck Hamas. The West Bank is under occupation as well and here is no Hamas there. I fully disagree with you that Hamas is the problem. It's important to note that Hamas is not the problem. They're only a symptom of a brutal occupation and treatment of Palestinians that has been going on for over 75 years. This is not a defense of Hamas. Their leaders are corrupt, and as you say, their leaders, who sit in their mansions in Qatar and who have billions of dollars in assets don't actually give a fxck about the Palestinians. However, a few notes on Hamas, which is important to note: 1) They were originally created and funded by Israel to counter the PLO. 2) The Hamas charter, which was last updated in 2017 is not what the Israeli narrative says. The charter actually says: 16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity. 17. Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds. Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, anti-Semitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage. The Zionist movement, which was able with the help of Western powers to occupy Palestine, is the most dangerous form of settlement occupation which has already disappeared from much of the world and must disappear from Palestine. I would recommend looking at Likud's charter, which is fully against a Palestinian state: The Right of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel (Eretz Israel) a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty. b. A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State," jeopardizes the security of the Jewish population, endangers the existence of the State of Israel. and frustrates any prospect of peace.

This man will explain it better than I will:

Bro... and I mean this, as someone who has family who is and has served. Don't fall for this BS. Israel has been "mowing the lawn" in Gaza since 2006. Do you ever wonder why one of the most secure borders, where people are shot at when they get within the buffer zone, suddenly had no security, and these Hamas militants were able to get through? Do you question why Israel did nothing when both Egyptian and U.S. intelligence warned them of the attack a few days prior? It took them over 6 hours to respond. Hamas is just a symptom of the ongoing suffocation of Palestinians. If you create a prison, you are bound to have gangs forming and some dominating. Gaza is a concentration camp where their borders, the air, any movement of humans, food and resources is controlled by Israel. Where they regularly get carpet bombed every few years. This is how the next Hamas militant is born. Israel has been treating the Palestinians like "human animals" as they say, for over 75 years. Hamas only came to be less than 30 years ago.

Let's talk about international law and their definition of genocide: UN Factsheet You are welcome.