Muddyw67

I posted this commentary today on my site regarding my experience posting here. I spent a couple of days posting at another Canadian forum which I believe is based in Alberta. The majority of posters if I'm not mistaken were Western Canadians They had the advantage of being in operation for 5 years so had a large well established group of participants. I was struck by a few things (1) That Canadian right wingers share the same behaviour patterns of their American counterparts.-they attack the poster, they are often manically shrill and disparaging (2) That all of us including myself ,tend to make slogans and speeches rather that observations inviting commentary-this approach appears to merely escalate the above patterns. (3) Canada has an elevated sense of regional grievances (4) We have no idea what the social realities are in each others societies-thus we make stereo typical attribution errors. For example one participate posted a comment that went like this: "Ontarians don't have the spine to get rid of the Federal Liberals because they associate Liberals with Canada itself."- This is in fact far from the truth. This has nothing to do with lack of spine but of a different set of experiences and cultural history. (5) I also have no first hand knowledge of Alberta or the West except for BC-I have no idea what drives their relentless hatred of Ontario or if this feeling is a widely held view. (6) Forums like the one I visited does nothing to narrow the gaps of ignorance nor expand awareness of each others realities-if anything they seem to exacerbate them. (7) Participates (including myself) of the left and right are often dogmatically self righteous, and extremely poor active listeners and we are more motivated it seems in scoring points or belittling the poster and their views then contributing to a deeper understanding of issues or each others perspectives. Not all of the participants but a fair number of them This experience has been useful and instructive and it has demonstrated to me where my short comings are which I will attempt to modify on my own site. I don't really find the experience participating here very edifying or even enjoyable so this will be my last offering.

You hope that preposterous mishmash of confused drivel will clarify something for me? Let me see. You dislike the bigotry of religious people which is why you practice it against them. You dislike people who commit acts of hatred which is why you imitate them. You desperately wish Christians would be open minded, though you aren't, and tolerant, though you have none, and not be so judgemental of others - like you are. Have I pretty much got that right? QUOTE -by the way I dislike all organized religions and think their all equally as aberrant as the Christian cult. I agree with Marx and Lennon "Religion is the opiate of the masses"...and "imagine no religion...its easy if you try..no hell below us above us only sky" No doubt why Marx and Lennon decided to create a hell on Earth in Russia, and sentence tens of millions to torement, misery and death. QUOTE By the way a Reform party MP did offer that it would be perfectly acceptable for a businessman to remove a visible minority from serving the public if someone found him/her objectionable. You claimed the Reform party said this, which was more raving nonsense. Nor did a Reform MP "offer' this. He was specifically asked, repeatedly, despite his attempts to suggest it was a silly quesiton and would never happen, to answer this hypothetical suggestion from a "journalist". Unfortunately for him, the Reform MPs not being altogether as media savy as they should have, he actually did answer it truthfully rather than boot the "journalist" in the arse and tell her to get lost. QUOTE It cause quite a ruckus at the time I remember. Yes, the "progressives" were horrified that this guy, an ex military general, was willing to move an employee into another room rather than nobly going into bankruptcy and thus having to let all his employees go. QUOTE although I could be wrong. The only sane thing I've read in this post thus far. My My..such a noxious brew my friend...and talk about incoherent..hmmm... Lets see... Do I practice bigotry against religious people? I don't think so. I simply reject their fatuous simplistic views from being used to discriminate against other peoples rights in a civil society. Apart from disliking religious organizations because of what I perceive as their limited understanding of the world and their rather unpleasant historical practices of hatred of those who are different from them I am a fairly tolerant open person. I will confess to being judgmental at times. I do have definite judgments about US foreign policy which imposes its will on peoples around the world because it suits their economic interests-guilty as charged. I must point out a few glaring errors in your assessment of Marx and John Lennon. First of all Marx wasn't alive in 1917 when the Russian revolution took place. He actually imagined the communist revolution would take place in a more advanced capitalist society like Germany. John Lennon was born in 1940 so he missed the Russian revolution by a good 23 years. I think you must mean Lenin although far be it for me to be judgmental in terms of your thesis. "Unfortunately for him, the Reform MPs not being altogether as media savy as they should have, he actually did answer it truthfully... ah..a case of spontaneous honesty-not a good trait for a racist in this case. I’ve enjoyed our little sparing my friend, although you should try not to take myself or yourself so seriously.

yes I have heard of "punctuation" and unlike you, I also know how to spell it.

This is the kind of "Bush Bombast" that alienates those who would otherwise be supportive. This was a nasty, horrible, unjustifiable act of terror on Britain. Not on all civilized nations, not on freedom. The Bush/Blair version of freedom, perhaps, which they are trying to convince the rest of the world they have defined and perfected. But, having said that, this isn't a day to bash Tony Blair. Whatever the politics might be, 37 people (the last time I checked) got up this morning and went about their daily routine, and are now dead; they are the ones to focus on, along with the hundreds injured. The people responsible need to be hunted down and brought to justice, and the less political posturing and bombast involved the better. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Compassionate sentiments Melanie and I second them... now how many Iraqis or Afghans got up this morning and went about their daily routines and are now dead or injured? Do we know? Or care? Or does our compassion only extend to "our people"? I agree with you-the people responsible for the on going carnage in Iraq- Blair and Bush should be hunted down and dragged to a War Crimes tribunal for crimes against humanity and punished. Since Bush enjoyed dispatching people to the electric chair so casually as Governor of Texas that this method of punishment should be reserved for him.

Um, who wants to keep who in the back room now? I gather you feel that all personal beliefs are off limit in political discourse. Which is a little limiting, you know? Considering that pretty much all of politics boils down to personal opinion. Just saying. Also, skepticism is the philosophical refutation of absolute knowledge, and doesn't include a verbal tar-and-feathering job on people like my grandmother. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm sorry if I gave the impression that personal beliefs are off limit in a political discussion. Given that we all have them as you have observed it would mean that only scientific evidence could be used in discussion-that would mean I would have to use statistics-a thought that makes me cringe. The thing is my friend that individuals who characterize themselves as Christians and I'll use this belief system as I am most familiar with it are coming from a place of "Divine" knowledge which if I understand it correctly means that it isn't subject to change or reevaluation in light of subsequent new understandings or insights. Potentially we all have the possibility of being persuaded by opposing arguments here even just novel insights here-but Christians do not have this possibility in their repetior as all biblical 'facts" are ordained by "God" -this makes for pretty frustrating discourse given the reluctance for the other side to ever be open to idea's outside this paradigm. This sense of being the conduit of absolute knowledge appears to me to be the quintessence of arrogance and hubris and historical it has caused unbelievable misery for hundreds of thousands of people. I have given up trying to have any sort of free wheeling discussions with evangelical types because the conversation simply grinds to a halt on dogma. Anyway... I'm sure your grandmother is a fine women completely undeserving of anything like a verbal tar and feathering from yours truly as was mine and she was also a believer as well, although we never let that come between us.

For the past few weeks, on business. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> They have a cool subway eh? Pretty majestic decorating. Tough to figure out where you are in that thing though. I understand the Al Queda group claiming responsibility is bringing up the crusades again. I always have to laugh when the usual suspects claim that the terrorism would stop if weren't for US/ British foreign policy. These thugs will always have a grude and an excuse to attack us. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And why is that do you think? Are they just genetically programmed to attack us for no reason? Just crazy ARabs? I personally have no love for radical Literalists Islamists any more then I do for radical Literalist Christians or Jews. I suspect the majority of Muslims Christians and Jews feel the same. But we in the west create the right conditions for these thugs as you call them by supporting Israeli's brutal policies against the Palestinians and propping up corrupt regional governments like the Saudi's who oppress their own people. It wasn't that long ago remember that the same thugs in the white House were playing pac man and knocking back a few beers with Saddam while he was engaged in oppressing and massacring his own people. Our hypocrisies are as evident to the people of the middle east as theirs are to us.

If this is the work of al Qaeda, then Britain is completely innocent of imperial machinations. Britain no more provoked the attack than did our decision to make gay marriages legal. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You don't see a connection between Britains involvement in the war on Iraq and this alleged retailation by al Qaeda?

ma? This looks like the stuff that people were writing back in 2002. Do you honestly believe that the US went to war in Iraq solely to benefit Haliburton (or, let's say, all American oil interests), and do you think the WMD issues and the democratization efforts and everything else was just blather to cover the oil issue up? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It must have been a joint coma. All sorts of evidence now plainly indicates that the Bush Reich did in fact use information about WMD that they knew was false in order to rationalize and terrorize the American people into accepting this imperialist invasion. The democratic rhetoric was a rather belated attempted to cover up the failure to find the non existent WMD as a rational to the American people now that the Iraqis had failed to act like the grateful French of 1944 and throw flowers all over the victorious army and was in fact determined to push them out by what ever means at their disposal. Initially remember Bush had no interest in "Nation Building" and attempted to resist the Iraqis impulses towards creating their own country. He wanted to rule Iraq like a colony under a proconsul. The original constitution drafted by corporate interests included unbelievable guarantees of access to Iraqis resources and the removal of profits to corporate head quarters an unprecedented intrusion into the affairs of a sovereign country. A few points that you might have missed while you were in hyper sleep : Saddam did not collude with Al Quada in the 9/11 attacks : Saddam did not met with Al Quada : Saddam did not posses weapons of mass destruction The US knew this and pushed their invasion agenda anyway. The reason for the Bush Reich's interest in Iraq is not the oil per se but the control of it in terms of its larger geo political agenda which would be made much easier with Iraqis oil and bases in the Middle East.

I well remember this above incident in the news, however it was another MP not Preston Manning. The sad reality is that this is a lot more common than we are prepared to admit as our Canadian goodie two shoes image suggests. Progressive people laugh when they hear Liberals and Conservatives going at it over their media representation or more to the point, their lack of it. The reality is the media apart from the CBC, are owned by big business so obviously the New Democrats are severely underrepresented. Without wanting to turn this thread into another BS religious discussion, the New Democrats probably have more Christian ministers representing them in Parliament than any other party. As far as Canada, or more precisely English Canada having some great journalists, some independent thinkers as opposed to following the sheep, try reading Paul Wells at Macleans, Chantel Hebert, James Travers, Linda McQuaig, and Carol Goar at the Toronto Star, and Heather Mallick & Rick Salutin at the Globe and Mail and Reverend Blair at Vive le Canada. They are there if you look for them. BTW I thought the moderator here asked us to not insult each other. I think we need to respect his request. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes..I'm not sure who the Reform MP was but I thought this incident happened under Mannings tenure, not that the incident itself was of Mannings creation. Those journalist you mentions are excellent and I read them avidily-The Toronto Star seems to have a very good selection of journalists at this point in time. I hope I wasn't insulting anyone directly...I was I hope,deconstructing a belief system ,not disparaging the person who was defending these ideas.

What rust belt? The Japanese are building even more manufacturing plants here- Ontario now produces more cars then Michigan. Whose wealth again? Alberta's? How many people in Alberta-about the size of Mississauga? Alberta would have its fantasy realized by becoming "Klineland"- a red neck, cowboy theme park. Imagine the pavillions- kick a psychiatric homeless person, Indulge in a two minute hate of everything eastern, reflect in Alberta's national socialist history of eugenics and forced sterilizations. Everyone could enjoy Telus delivering health care with their usual competence and efficiency. Sign up your boys and girls to serve in what ever war corporate America is thinking up. I think everybody wins with this proposal! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. You crossed the line with that Telus comment. Never would I ever use Telus! I resent that. :angry: <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes..I do apologize... mentioning Telus was over the top...

It is truly awful that innocent Brits have to pay with their lives for the imperialist machinations of Blair a man of unbelievable mediocrity and a war criminal for leading his country into a an unnecessary war in Iraq. I do not stand with the British government nor do I wish our government to stand with them. They are war mongers and have the blood of thousands of innocent Iraqis on their hands. Do you believe for one minute this attack would have occurred if Britain hadn't assume its old role of gunboat diplomacy and keeping the wogs in their place? Britain more then any country is responsible for the entire catastrophe in the Middle East because they created the Middle East in its present form after World War 1 and designed in in such a way that they could exploit their resources and keep the Arabs in a perpetual state of impotence and disarray. Kuwait was deliberately created so that Iraq couldn't have access to water thus keeping them dependent of Britain. Britain is a cunning old imperialist country who can still teach the US a thing or two about keeping the "lesser races" in their place.

What rust belt? The Japanese are building even more manufacturing plants here- Ontario now produces more cars then Michigan. Whose wealth again? Alberta's? How many people in Alberta-about the size of Mississauga? Alberta would have its fantasy realized by becoming "Klineland"- a red neck, cowboy theme park. Imagine the pavillions- kick a psychiatric homeless person, Indulge in a two minute hate of everything eastern, reflect in Alberta's national socialist history of eugenics and forced sterilizations. Everyone could enjoy Telus delivering health care with their usual competence and efficiency. Sign up your boys and girls to serve in what ever war corporate America is thinking up. I think everybody wins with this proposal!

Well.. The Ten Commandments has in origins from the Jewish tradition-I was simply feeding back some of the mythical Jesus's alleged observations which are more germain to the Christian cult tradition- I'm sorry your not feeling very well and I hope you've taken some Gravol for your nausea-Unfortunately Gravol doesn't begin to alleviate the suffering that the Christian cult has inflected on the world and continues to inflict in one form or another. Actually I don't feel ignorant about it's teachings at all given I was raised in it and took at least one course in religion at University. You may consider my take on the Christian myth ignorant or objectionable which is your right- Hmmm...wasn't there a time when anyone disagreed with literal bibical material were killed tortured etc??? What an incredible history of enlightment and life affirmation the Christian myth has brought to the world.

Its a quote from Bill Vanderzalm a crooked BC politican and one time Premier

that is a chilling thought-I can hardly imagine what a less opened minded "kimmy" would resemble

One small request... if you're going, please take Quebec with you. -k <{POST_SNAPBACK}> with pleasure-now you won't have to read French on the back of your corn flax box

Ah... what have here, an idealist. An anarchist perhaps? Hey shouldn't you be in Glen Eagles right now ripping sh*t up for peace? Anyway, your type type really annoys me. Here you sit self righteously typing on that computer manufactured in Korea by some multi-national corporation useing raw materials from the Congo and mercury and lead that will eventually be shipped to Michigan landfills to pollute Canadian groundwater. Perhaps we should talk about the fossil fuels being used to run your computer. To fuel the bus/car that takes you to work. The fossil fuels produced by these "evil" companies which heat your house in this cold country. A country, which by the way, you live in because of the theft and genocide of aboriginal peoples. While you sit taking up the biggest ecological footprint in the world. So while you're up there on your high horse; tell me what percentage of your income do you give to Africa? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I am of course delighted that "my type" annoys you-”your type”, whatever that means seems to really get worked up when their cherished fetishes, "The free market" is in any way challenged even if it's done somewhat playfully as I did. Since you have analyzed the corporate crimes in terms of their ecological and historical plunderings pretty well, my question to you is why doesn't the corporate system provide us with products that don't contribute to the destructive consequences that you have so elequently outlined for us? Has it got something to do with "externalities" perhaps? That wonderful enterprising practice of socializing all the costs associated with production so that stock holders and the corporations can maximize their profits at the expense of everyone else?

Of course brutal attacks by terrorists against innocent civilians is to be condemned as a outrage and an affront against human kind-in Baghdad as well as London. Its pretty disingenuous of that coward and hypocrite Blair to rail against barbaric acts against innocents when he authorized the equally brutal attacks on innocent Iraqis two years ago based on non existent threats to British security in order to promote British economic and political Imperialism along with his co-state terrorist George Bush. Terrorism is terrorism whether it is state terrorism or any other kind

I feel the need to make a public declaration about an inner impulse that I feel some shame about- I have come to believe that Ontario should become an independent Republic. We have a creative, highly educated, talented population with many resources -all we lack is the will to acknowledge that we are in fact a country in waiting. The rest of Canada, especially the western environs seem to viscerally despise us with an intensity that suggests some culturally induced prejudice. I lived in BC for 13 years and the anti-Ontario bias was evident and often difficult to understand given the vast majority of BC'ers haven't been any further east then Hope BC. Since we generate a sizable majority of Canada's wealth shouldn't we be the ones to benefit from it? We could jettison the ridiculous associations with the British Royal family, and create a unique democracy perhaps based on the examples of Germany or France. I would be open to an union with Quebec perhaps which would give us a potent reserve of resource both human and material. The western provinces could either join their major love interest the USA or elect reactionary governments to their hearts content and we wouldn't be blamed for the consequences. The maritime provinces could at last be free from the paternalistic , stultifying shackling influences of Ottawa and unleash their potential they've been lecturing us about all these years I found the idea exciting and the possibilities for a distinct society compelling.

Nope- wrong characterization- I deplore the burka and the oppression that it inflicts on females. It's not about a "guy" going to church and quietly experiencing his faith in personal contemplation of the divine, its the obnoxious intrusive paternalistic and obscene expression of these so-called God revealed truths into the discourse of a democratic society. So you don't have a problem with someone going to church, being a Christian believer, which explicitly requires him to accept the moral teachings of the Church. You just want him to ignore all those moral teachings everywhere outside the church doors. Have I got that right? What kind of people would that make for? Hypocrites? People with no morals? People willing to ignore all they believe in order to please the electorate? This is who you want in politics? Or perhaps you think all believers should be banned from politics? Do enlighten me. No. It wasn't. You are, unsurprisingly, quite incorrect. Again. This is the kind of bigoted drivel I was referring to. Imagine if someone said: "I personally think Jews are an aberrant cult who have inflicted incredible harm in the world." Would anyone have any doubt what kind of mentality is behind such a quote? Yet here we have an NDP supporter, ostensibly one of those oh-so-tolerent folk feeling perfectly free in making precisely the same remark only at a different target group. "I personally think Sikhs are an aberrant cult who have inflicted incredible harm in the world." I don't think you'd get the above poster to dare say this, especially at an NDP meeting! Has he even a clue about what bigotry means? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Perhaps if I said Christianity is an aberrant cult it would be less offensive and which is no less bigoted then saying Nazism is an aberrant cult which you might agree with. I expect that you might take issue with the comparison, but if we compared Nazi behaviour (much of endorsed by Christian cult followers by the way, including Lutherans and Catholics) and the behaviour of the various Christian cults throughout history, I wonder exactly what the differences, if any, would there be? Now it terms of Christianity's moral teachings, which ones were you referring to? How about "Judge not less you be judged?" I like that one. If someone offends you turn the other cheek, or love your enemies as you love yourself-another good one. The sense that the rich will have one hell of time getting into heaven that the mythological Jesus character discussed should send some sort of fear into Conservative capitalist true believers. How about the reoccurring theme of sharing with those less fortunate or the idea that accumulating wealth is bad for the soul? All wonderful moral ideas- I would welcome Christian cult followers to manifest these beliefs seriously in the world. Unfortunately they don't seem to want to do that do they? They wish to persecute gay people and deny them their civil liberties and boy do they ever judge their behaviours, especially their sexual ones which really gets them into a tizzy.I could offer you a Freudian interpretation of this effect but this would be a digression. Of course the Catholic Christian cult followers, while extolling sexual restraint on their followers, indulge in the most disgraceful and predatory sexual practices on children.. didn't the mythological Jesus character say :" suffer little children and let then come to him for protection?" Often Christian cult followers make grand statements about others they don't like by saying they are going to hell- That strictly speaking is blasphemy because it purports to assume they know what God is thinking about-a very bad thing in the zany world of Christian concepts. I hope this clarifies my positions somewhat for you-by the way I dislike all organized religions and think their all equally as aberrant as the Christian cult. I agree with Marx and Lennon "Religion is the opiate of the masses"...and "imagine no religion...its easy if you try..no hell below us above us only sky" By the way a Reform party MP did offer that it would be perfectly acceptable for a businessman to remove a visible minority from serving the public if someone found him/her objectionable. It cause quite a ruckus at the time I remember. It might have been under that wonderful cranky Prescott Manning who smelt of musty bibles and repressed masterbation even through the TV. I think he was from BC although I could be wrong.

Put simply, because the average Ontarionian is too lazy/scared/stupid to vote out the Liberal party that is screwing over the country. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Speaking of screwing over the country-do you remember what the Mulroney Tories did to us with free trade and NAFTA?-he simply helped the Americans screw us even more delightfully with their tariffs on soft wood lumber and the banning of cattle imports to the US and hundreds of other trade disputes that NAFTA was suppose to remedy. As a average Ontarionian I am scared on voting out the Liberals for fear of having Harper send my son and daughter to Iraq and having HMO's on every street cornor, Canadian Tire delivering my health care while the Christian church decides on what movies I should watch and who should marry.

I'm willing to bet this poster would normally, in real life, express his delight and efusive approval of all aspects of multiculturalism, and would joyously parade to the polls to vote for, say, a muslim woman in a burkha. Sikhs are okay, too, and Hindus. But let a guy go to a church and suddenly he, and everyone around him is a "fundamentalist zealot". This hateful bigotry against Christians is one of the reasons why the NDP will never succeed in forming a government. Nobody trusts them not to set up re-education camps and gulags for without acceptably politically correct beliefs. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nope- wrong characterization- I deplore the burka and the oppression that it inflicts on females. It's not about a "guy" going to church and quietly experiencing his faith in personal contemplation of the divine, its the obnoxious intrusive paternalistic and obscene expression of these so-called God revealed truths into the discourse of a democratic society. Was it not the Reform Party that thought it was ok for a minority to be removed from serving customers in a store if offended some wasp customer? I personally think Christians are an aberrant cult who have inflicted incredible harm in the world, especially to non Europeans. However since we as a society have agreed that this cult has a legitimate status in our society I am willing to tolerate it providing they only abuse each other with their silly mythology. It is when they start to emerge from their pointed brick buildings or garish evangelical covens and start to bully their beliefs into the wider discourse that I have to object. I feel the same way incidentally about Scientologists just to show you that I am an equal opportunity skeptic. However I do believe most devotely in grey Aliens.

More fundamentally, many people in Ontario simply do not want to read bad news about the federal Liberal Party. For them, such bad news is viewed as an attack on Canada itself. This is a consequence of Quebec politics - a bitter but peaceful civil war - spilling over to the federal arena. What evidence do you have that would support such a sweeping generalization like that? The lack of support for example the Conservatives in Ontario may have more to do with the rejection of neo con voodoo economics that remind us too much of the damage that Harris created and the fact that Stephen Harper and his crew of fundamentalist zealots might inflict a rather frightening version of American right wing Republicanism. I am typically an NDP supporter but the thought of Harper in government has forced me to vote Liberal. It is possible that this may explain Ontarions support of the Federal Liberal party as well-not an affirmation of the Federal Liberals but a fear of something distinctly much worse.

With respect to western corps. and mercinaries, companies like Shell have to have protection against the ruthless criminal elements. You should see what these thugs do to people who have money. There are people who'll kill you for a buck and won't even give your dead corpse a second thought. As for the decent people, they are begging for western business to come to their villages and exploit their resources. Why? because the west has the knowledge, money and equipment to do it. But westerners aren't always eager to jump in because first they have to grease every cop and leader in town to assure that they aren't robbed, kidnapped or blown up. But then when a company like Shell comes in and actually spends their money, they are slammed for hiring protection and giving money to shady elements. It truly is a no win situation. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Those poor put upon western corporations...just trying to make an honest living, playing by the rules, in shock and awe over the wondrous workings of the invisible hand of the market place, trying to raise all boats through the marvels of the free enterprise trickle down system. And what thanks to these tireless selfless entrepreneurs get? Why those heathen devils spit on the very hand that is trying to elevate their primitive conditions. It is really discouraging when all they are trying to do is God's work on earth and bear the white man's burden yet again. It must be something to do with their genes, their beliefs or their race....

Please define the words "empire" and "colony" and "master".Newfoundland once had commission government. To my knowledge, Canada is a sovereign state. Many Quebecers desire such. If these comments seem naive to you, how about explaining why Poland just join the EU? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not naive but somewhat confusing. I think you know the meaning of those words as well as I do so it's not necessary to be unduly pedantic. Poland, Hungry and the rest of Eastern Europe were also technically "sovereign countries" but we nevertheless saw them as political satellites of the old Soviet Union. We are inextricably tied to the US economic empire and which has a huge influence on our domestic politics if you haven't noticed. I'm not sure why I should explain why Poland has joined the EU as i don't quite follow your line of reasoning on this point