Muddyw67

I posted this commentary today on my site regarding my experience posting here. I spent a couple of days posting at another Canadian forum which I believe is based in Alberta. The majority of posters if I'm not mistaken were Western Canadians They had the advantage of being in operation for 5 years so had a large well established group of participants. I was struck by a few things (1) That Canadian right wingers share the same behaviour patterns of their American counterparts.-they attack the poster, they are often manically shrill and disparaging (2) That all of us including myself ,tend to make slogans and speeches rather that observations inviting commentary-this approach appears to merely escalate the above patterns. (3) Canada has an elevated sense of regional grievances (4) We have no idea what the social realities are in each others societies-thus we make stereo typical attribution errors. For example one participate posted a comment that went like this: "Ontarians don't have the spine to get rid of the Federal Liberals because they associate Liberals with Canada itself."- This is in fact far from the truth. This has nothing to do with lack of spine but of a different set of experiences and cultural history. (5) I also have no first hand knowledge of Alberta or the West except for BC-I have no idea what drives their relentless hatred of Ontario or if this feeling is a widely held view. (6) Forums like the one I visited does nothing to narrow the gaps of ignorance nor expand awareness of each others realities-if anything they seem to exacerbate them. (7) Participates (including myself) of the left and right are often dogmatically self righteous, and extremely poor active listeners and we are more motivated it seems in scoring points or belittling the poster and their views then contributing to a deeper understanding of issues or each others perspectives. Not all of the participants but a fair number of them This experience has been useful and instructive and it has demonstrated to me where my short comings are which I will attempt to modify on my own site. I don't really find the experience participating here very edifying or even enjoyable so this will be my last offering.

You hope that preposterous mishmash of confused drivel will clarify something for me? Let me see. You dislike the bigotry of religious people which is why you practice it against them. You dislike people who commit acts of hatred which is why you imitate them. You desperately wish Christians would be open minded, though you aren't, and tolerant, though you have none, and not be so judgemental of others - like you are. Have I pretty much got that right? QUOTE -by the way I dislike all organized religions and think their all equally as aberrant as the Christian cult. I agree with Marx and Lennon "Religion is the opiate of the masses"...and "imagine no religion...its easy if you try..no hell below us above us only sky" No doubt why Marx and Lennon decided to create a hell on Earth in Russia, and sentence tens of millions to torement, misery and death. QUOTE By the way a Reform party MP did offer that it would be perfectly acceptable for a businessman to remove a visible minority from serving the public if someone found him/her objectionable. You claimed the Reform party said this, which was more raving nonsense. Nor did a Reform MP "offer' this. He was specifically asked, repeatedly, despite his attempts to suggest it was a silly quesiton and would never happen, to answer this hypothetical suggestion from a "journalist". Unfortunately for him, the Reform MPs not being altogether as media savy as they should have, he actually did answer it truthfully rather than boot the "journalist" in the arse and tell her to get lost. QUOTE It cause quite a ruckus at the time I remember. Yes, the "progressives" were horrified that this guy, an ex military general, was willing to move an employee into another room rather than nobly going into bankruptcy and thus having to let all his employees go. QUOTE although I could be wrong. The only sane thing I've read in this post thus far. My My..such a noxious brew my friend...and talk about incoherent..hmmm... Lets see... Do I practice bigotry against religious people? I don't think so. I simply reject their fatuous simplistic views from being used to discriminate against other peoples rights in a civil society. Apart from disliking religious organizations because of what I perceive as their limited understanding of the world and their rather unpleasant historical practices of hatred of those who are different from them I am a fairly tolerant open person. I will confess to being judgmental at times. I do have definite judgments about US foreign policy which imposes its will on peoples around the world because it suits their economic interests-guilty as charged. I must point out a few glaring errors in your assessment of Marx and John Lennon. First of all Marx wasn't alive in 1917 when the Russian revolution took place. He actually imagined the communist revolution would take place in a more advanced capitalist society like Germany. John Lennon was born in 1940 so he missed the Russian revolution by a good 23 years. I think you must mean Lenin although far be it for me to be judgmental in terms of your thesis. "Unfortunately for him, the Reform MPs not being altogether as media savy as they should have, he actually did answer it truthfully... ah..a case of spontaneous honesty-not a good trait for a racist in this case. I’ve enjoyed our little sparing my friend, although you should try not to take myself or yourself so seriously.

yes I have heard of "punctuation" and unlike you, I also know how to spell it.

This is the kind of "Bush Bombast" that alienates those who would otherwise be supportive. This was a nasty, horrible, unjustifiable act of terror on Britain. Not on all civilized nations, not on freedom. The Bush/Blair version of freedom, perhaps, which they are trying to convince the rest of the world they have defined and perfected. But, having said that, this isn't a day to bash Tony Blair. Whatever the politics might be, 37 people (the last time I checked) got up this morning and went about their daily routine, and are now dead; they are the ones to focus on, along with the hundreds injured. The people responsible need to be hunted down and brought to justice, and the less political posturing and bombast involved the better. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Compassionate sentiments Melanie and I second them... now how many Iraqis or Afghans got up this morning and went about their daily routines and are now dead or injured? Do we know? Or care? Or does our compassion only extend to "our people"? I agree with you-the people responsible for the on going carnage in Iraq- Blair and Bush should be hunted down and dragged to a War Crimes tribunal for crimes against humanity and punished. Since Bush enjoyed dispatching people to the electric chair so casually as Governor of Texas that this method of punishment should be reserved for him.

Um, who wants to keep who in the back room now? I gather you feel that all personal beliefs are off limit in political discourse. Which is a little limiting, you know? Considering that pretty much all of politics boils down to personal opinion. Just saying. Also, skepticism is the philosophical refutation of absolute knowledge, and doesn't include a verbal tar-and-feathering job on people like my grandmother. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm sorry if I gave the impression that personal beliefs are off limit in a political discussion. Given that we all have them as you have observed it would mean that only scientific evidence could be used in discussion-that would mean I would have to use statistics-a thought that makes me cringe. The thing is my friend that individuals who characterize themselves as Christians and I'll use this belief system as I am most familiar with it are coming from a place of "Divine" knowledge which if I understand it correctly means that it isn't subject to change or reevaluation in light of subsequent new understandings or insights. Potentially we all have the possibility of being persuaded by opposing arguments here even just novel insights here-but Christians do not have this possibility in their repetior as all biblical 'facts" are ordained by "God" -this makes for pretty frustrating discourse given the reluctance for the other side to ever be open to idea's outside this paradigm. This sense of being the conduit of absolute knowledge appears to me to be the quintessence of arrogance and hubris and historical it has caused unbelievable misery for hundreds of thousands of people. I have given up trying to have any sort of free wheeling discussions with evangelical types because the conversation simply grinds to a halt on dogma. Anyway... I'm sure your grandmother is a fine women completely undeserving of anything like a verbal tar and feathering from yours truly as was mine and she was also a believer as well, although we never let that come between us.

For the past few weeks, on business. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> They have a cool subway eh? Pretty majestic decorating. Tough to figure out where you are in that thing though. I understand the Al Queda group claiming responsibility is bringing up the crusades again. I always have to laugh when the usual suspects claim that the terrorism would stop if weren't for US/ British foreign policy. These thugs will always have a grude and an excuse to attack us. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And why is that do you think? Are they just genetically programmed to attack us for no reason? Just crazy ARabs? I personally have no love for radical Literalists Islamists any more then I do for radical Literalist Christians or Jews. I suspect the majority of Muslims Christians and Jews feel the same. But we in the west create the right conditions for these thugs as you call them by supporting Israeli's brutal policies against the Palestinians and propping up corrupt regional governments like the Saudi's who oppress their own people. It wasn't that long ago remember that the same thugs in the white House were playing pac man and knocking back a few beers with Saddam while he was engaged in oppressing and massacring his own people. Our hypocrisies are as evident to the people of the middle east as theirs are to us.

If this is the work of al Qaeda, then Britain is completely innocent of imperial machinations. Britain no more provoked the attack than did our decision to make gay marriages legal. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You don't see a connection between Britains involvement in the war on Iraq and this alleged retailation by al Qaeda?

ma? This looks like the stuff that people were writing back in 2002. Do you honestly believe that the US went to war in Iraq solely to benefit Haliburton (or, let's say, all American oil interests), and do you think the WMD issues and the democratization efforts and everything else was just blather to cover the oil issue up? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It must have been a joint coma. All sorts of evidence now plainly indicates that the Bush Reich did in fact use information about WMD that they knew was false in order to rationalize and terrorize the American people into accepting this imperialist invasion. The democratic rhetoric was a rather belated attempted to cover up the failure to find the non existent WMD as a rational to the American people now that the Iraqis had failed to act like the grateful French of 1944 and throw flowers all over the victorious army and was in fact determined to push them out by what ever means at their disposal. Initially remember Bush had no interest in "Nation Building" and attempted to resist the Iraqis impulses towards creating their own country. He wanted to rule Iraq like a colony under a proconsul. The original constitution drafted by corporate interests included unbelievable guarantees of access to Iraqis resources and the removal of profits to corporate head quarters an unprecedented intrusion into the affairs of a sovereign country. A few points that you might have missed while you were in hyper sleep : Saddam did not collude with Al Quada in the 9/11 attacks : Saddam did not met with Al Quada : Saddam did not posses weapons of mass destruction The US knew this and pushed their invasion agenda anyway. The reason for the Bush Reich's interest in Iraq is not the oil per se but the control of it in terms of its larger geo political agenda which would be made much easier with Iraqis oil and bases in the Middle East.

I well remember this above incident in the news, however it was another MP not Preston Manning. The sad reality is that this is a lot more common than we are prepared to admit as our Canadian goodie two shoes image suggests. Progressive people laugh when they hear Liberals and Conservatives going at it over their media representation or more to the point, their lack of it. The reality is the media apart from the CBC, are owned by big business so obviously the New Democrats are severely underrepresented. Without wanting to turn this thread into another BS religious discussion, the New Democrats probably have more Christian ministers representing them in Parliament than any other party. As far as Canada, or more precisely English Canada having some great journalists, some independent thinkers as opposed to following the sheep, try reading Paul Wells at Macleans, Chantel Hebert, James Travers, Linda McQuaig, and Carol Goar at the Toronto Star, and Heather Mallick & Rick Salutin at the Globe and Mail and Reverend Blair at Vive le Canada. They are there if you look for them. BTW I thought the moderator here asked us to not insult each other. I think we need to respect his request. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes..I'm not sure who the Reform MP was but I thought this incident happened under Mannings tenure, not that the incident itself was of Mannings creation. Those journalist you mentions are excellent and I read them avidily-The Toronto Star seems to have a very good selection of journalists at this point in time. I hope I wasn't insulting anyone directly...I was I hope,deconstructing a belief system ,not disparaging the person who was defending these ideas.

What rust belt? The Japanese are building even more manufacturing plants here- Ontario now produces more cars then Michigan. Whose wealth again? Alberta's? How many people in Alberta-about the size of Mississauga? Alberta would have its fantasy realized by becoming "Klineland"- a red neck, cowboy theme park. Imagine the pavillions- kick a psychiatric homeless person, Indulge in a two minute hate of everything eastern, reflect in Alberta's national socialist history of eugenics and forced sterilizations. Everyone could enjoy Telus delivering health care with their usual competence and efficiency. Sign up your boys and girls to serve in what ever war corporate America is thinking up. I think everybody wins with this proposal! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. You crossed the line with that Telus comment. Never would I ever use Telus! I resent that. :angry: <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes..I do apologize... mentioning Telus was over the top...

It is truly awful that innocent Brits have to pay with their lives for the imperialist machinations of Blair a man of unbelievable mediocrity and a war criminal for leading his country into a an unnecessary war in Iraq. I do not stand with the British government nor do I wish our government to stand with them. They are war mongers and have the blood of thousands of innocent Iraqis on their hands. Do you believe for one minute this attack would have occurred if Britain hadn't assume its old role of gunboat diplomacy and keeping the wogs in their place? Britain more then any country is responsible for the entire catastrophe in the Middle East because they created the Middle East in its present form after World War 1 and designed in in such a way that they could exploit their resources and keep the Arabs in a perpetual state of impotence and disarray. Kuwait was deliberately created so that Iraq couldn't have access to water thus keeping them dependent of Britain. Britain is a cunning old imperialist country who can still teach the US a thing or two about keeping the "lesser races" in their place.

What rust belt? The Japanese are building even more manufacturing plants here- Ontario now produces more cars then Michigan. Whose wealth again? Alberta's? How many people in Alberta-about the size of Mississauga? Alberta would have its fantasy realized by becoming "Klineland"- a red neck, cowboy theme park. Imagine the pavillions- kick a psychiatric homeless person, Indulge in a two minute hate of everything eastern, reflect in Alberta's national socialist history of eugenics and forced sterilizations. Everyone could enjoy Telus delivering health care with their usual competence and efficiency. Sign up your boys and girls to serve in what ever war corporate America is thinking up. I think everybody wins with this proposal!

Well.. The Ten Commandments has in origins from the Jewish tradition-I was simply feeding back some of the mythical Jesus's alleged observations which are more germain to the Christian cult tradition- I'm sorry your not feeling very well and I hope you've taken some Gravol for your nausea-Unfortunately Gravol doesn't begin to alleviate the suffering that the Christian cult has inflected on the world and continues to inflict in one form or another. Actually I don't feel ignorant about it's teachings at all given I was raised in it and took at least one course in religion at University. You may consider my take on the Christian myth ignorant or objectionable which is your right- Hmmm...wasn't there a time when anyone disagreed with literal bibical material were killed tortured etc??? What an incredible history of enlightment and life affirmation the Christian myth has brought to the world.

Its a quote from Bill Vanderzalm a crooked BC politican and one time Premier

that is a chilling thought-I can hardly imagine what a less opened minded "kimmy" would resemble