Saudi Funding of Muslim groups in Canada

[Argus]

Most people are unaware of the breadth and efforts of Saudi prostletyzing, or even that there is a difference between their brand of Islam and the kind of Islam practiced by most of the world. Saudi Islam is called Wahhabism, and is severe, ultra orthodox, and violently intollerent. And the Saudis have spent tens of billions spreading it around the world, opening thousands of schools in Pakistan and elsewhere, funding thousands of schools, mosques and community centres around the world - including in Canada. Some of the organizations responsible for lobbying for Sharia law in Ontario last year were funded by Saudi Arabia

Am I the only one who thinks this is wrong? Why are we allowing a foreign government to promote religious beliefs in Canada which are intollerent of our values and culture, and which can inspire violence and social upheaval in Canada? Perhaps, like Spain, we should monitor funding for mosques, community centres and ethnic schools, and ban any foreign money which aids alienation and fights against integration in Canada.

Saudi proselytizers are also interested in Muslims in the U.S. and other Western countries. Says Antoine Sfeir, the Lebanese-born editor of the Parisian quarterly Notebooks of the East: "Their message to Muslims in Europe and America is so extreme and intolerant: 'Do not accept their ways, and do not consider yourself as one of them. You only exist as a Muslim, respecting Muslim values alone.'" Abdulaziz Sachedina, a professor of religious studies at the University of Virginia who spent much of his career in Canada, says that most Sunni community centers in Canada receive Saudi funding. Carl Sharif El-Tobgui, a Ph.D. student at McGill University's Institute for Islamic Studies, which specializes in the worldwide spread of Islamic culture, estimates that 10% to 20% of Canada's 580,000 Muslims adhere to Wahhabism.

Saudi Funding

Backed by money from Saudi Arabia, Wahhabis have built or taken over hundreds of mosques in North America and opened branches of Saudi universities here for the training of imams as part of the effort to spread their beliefs, which are intolerant of Christianity, Judaism and even other strains of Islam.

"A growing body of accepted evidence and expert research demonstrates that the Wahhabi ideology that dominates, finances and animates many groups here in the United States, indeed is antithetical to the values of tolerance, individualism and freedom as we conceive these things," said Sen. Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.), who has been holding hearings on Wahhabism.

Spreading Wahabiism in America

Western governments, dependent on Saudi oil and needing Saudi Arabia as an important ally in the Middle East, continue to stress its moderating influence and opposition to terrorism. The reality is that, since the 1970s, Saudi Arabia has poured large amounts of its oil riches into the worldwide expansion of the strict and narrow Wahhabi form of Islam that is deeply hostile to any reformation and reinterpretation of Islam. It also has supported the most radical Muslim groups around the world, thus escalating their power and their slide into terrorism. Wahhabism had been a marginal extremist sect, but as a result of the oil money influx since the 1970s it has become part of mainstream Islam, redefining Muslim views worldwide. Extreme Wahhabi doctrines and attitudes – branding non-Muslims as infidels, judging other Muslims as apostates (this process of judging is called Takfir), and its emphasis on violent Jihad - helped it to forge alliances with similar-minded Islamist groups and lay the ideological basis for Islamist terrorism.

Campus watch

[Riverwind]

Why are we allowing a foreign government to promote religious beliefs in Canada which are intollerent of our values and culture, and which can inspire violence and social upheaval in Canada?

Replace Canada with China and you have a statement that describes the Chinese gov't's attitude towards Christian Missionary groups in China.

[jbg]

Am I the only one who thinks this is wrong? Why are we allowing a foreign government to promote religious beliefs in Canada which are intollerent of our values and culture, and which can inspire violence and social upheaval in Canada? Perhaps, like Spain, we should monitor funding for mosques, community centres and ethnic schools, and ban any foreign money which aids alienation and fights against integration in Canada.

Quite definitely not. And for more on the religion of peace, and forced proselyzing, check out this New York Times article on forced conversion of kidnapped Fox newmen (link). Disgusting.

================================================================

JERUSALEM, Aug. 27 — Two journalists kidnapped in Gaza were released unharmed on Sunday after being forced at gunpoint to say on a videotape that they had converted to Islam.

*snip*

“I’m really fine, healthy in good shape and so happy to be free,” Mr. Centanni told Fox News. He said the two had been forced at gunpoint to say that they were converting to Islam and had taken Muslim names. “I have the highest respect for Islam,” he said. “But it was something we felt we had to do because they had the guns, and we didn’t know what the hell was going on.”

Earlier on Sunday, their captors delivered a video showing the two men in Arab robes reading from the Koran to indicate their conversion.

*snip*

In a brief news conference, Mr. Wiig said he hoped the kidnapping would not prevent foreign journalists from covering Gaza. “That would be a great tragedy for the people of Palestine and especially for the people of Gaza,” he said.

Mr. Wiig’s wife, Anita McNaught, a television journalist, thanked Palestinian officials and Fox News for their efforts. The men refused to take questions, then traveled to the Erez border crossing and entered Israel.

Mr. Centanni told his network that he and Mr. Wiig had been blindfolded, handcuffed and taken to the abandoned garage with a generator. “I was thinking, ‘Oh God, O.K., so a remote warehouse with a big noisy generator. I’m toast,’ ” Mr. Centanni said. “They could simply shoot me in the head, and no one would hear it.”

He said he and Mr. Wiig had been forced to make videotapes denouncing American policies as well as saying they had converted to Islam.

*snip*

[daddyhominum]

Most people are unaware of the breadth and efforts of Saudi prostletyzing, or even that there is a difference between their brand of Islam and the kind of Islam practiced by most of the world. Saudi Islam is called Wahhabism, and is severe, ultra orthodox, and violently intollerent. And the Saudis have spent tens of billions spreading it around the world, opening thousands of schools in Pakistan and elsewhere, funding thousands of schools, mosques and community centres around the world - including in Canada. Some of the organizations responsible for lobbying for Sharia law in Ontario last year were funded by Saudi Arabia

Am I the only one who thinks this is wrong? Why are we allowing a foreign government to promote religious beliefs in Canada which are intollerent of our values and culture, and which can inspire violence and social upheaval in Canada? Perhaps, like Spain, we should monitor funding for mosques, community centres and ethnic schools, and ban any foreign money which aids alienation and fights against integration in Canada.

The Saudi government does not fund the spread of Islam under any banner. That is done by charities within Saudi Arabia (See: http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/...articleID=12218

The Saudi government has announced and, in some cases, undertaken some reform efforts to address Islamic extremism. For example, the government is undertaking educational and religious reforms, including revising textbooks and conducting a 3-year enlightenment program, to purge extremism and intolerance from religious education. However, US agencies do not know the extent of the Saudi government's efforts to limit the activities of Saudi sources that have allegedly propagated Islamic extremism outside of Saudi Arabia.

Sources: General Accounting Office, US Department of State, US Department of Defense, National Security Institute, National Association of Chiefs of Police Terrorism Committee

Saudi proselytizers are also interested in Muslims in the U.S. and other Western countries. Says Antoine Sfeir, the Lebanese-born editor of the Parisian quarterly Notebooks of the East: "Their message to Muslims in Europe and America is so extreme and intolerant: 'Do not accept their ways, and do not consider yourself as one of them. You only exist as a Muslim, respecting Muslim values alone.'" Abdulaziz Sachedina, a professor of religious studies at the University of Virginia who spent much of his career in Canada, says that most Sunni community centers in Canada receive Saudi funding. Carl Sharif El-Tobgui, a Ph.D. student at McGill University's Institute for Islamic Studies, which specializes in the worldwide spread of Islamic culture, estimates that 10% to 20% of Canada's 580,000 Muslims adhere to Wahhabism.

Saudi Funding

Backed by money from Saudi Arabia, Wahhabis have built or taken over hundreds of mosques in North America and opened branches of Saudi universities here for the training of imams as part of the effort to spread their beliefs, which are intolerant of Christianity, Judaism and even other strains of Islam.

"A growing body of accepted evidence and expert research demonstrates that the Wahhabi ideology that dominates, finances and animates many groups here in the United States, indeed is antithetical to the values of tolerance, individualism and freedom as we conceive these things," said Sen. Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.), who has been holding hearings on Wahhabism.

Spreading Wahabiism in America

Western governments, dependent on Saudi oil and needing Saudi Arabia as an important ally in the Middle East, continue to stress its moderating influence and opposition to terrorism. The reality is that, since the 1970s, Saudi Arabia has poured large amounts of its oil riches into the worldwide expansion of the strict and narrow Wahhabi form of Islam that is deeply hostile to any reformation and reinterpretation of Islam. It also has supported the most radical Muslim groups around the world, thus escalating their power and their slide into terrorism. Wahhabism had been a marginal extremist sect, but as a result of the oil money influx since the 1970s it has become part of mainstream Islam, redefining Muslim views worldwide. Extreme Wahhabi doctrines and attitudes – branding non-Muslims as infidels, judging other Muslims as apostates (this process of judging is called Takfir), and its emphasis on violent Jihad - helped it to forge alliances with similar-minded Islamist groups and lay the ideological basis for Islamist terrorism.

Campus watch

The activities of Islamic charities in the West are much the same as the activities of Christiean charities in non- Christian countries, even to the encouragement to overthrow existing governments. Those activities are protected in Canada by the Charter of Rights and are subject to the laws of Canada, including the so-called hate speech laws.

Wahabism is only one influence on Islamic militants and it directs most of its hatred against Moslems who believe differently from them and are thus, heretics, deserving of death and some more against fellow Muslims not living as the Prophet did but adopting Western, particularly US, ways.

The interesting thing about Wahabism and the rest of the Islamic militants is that most of their violence is turned toward each other because only one interpretation of the Koran can be true, and all those who fail to follow the Koran as correctly understood, deserve to die as apostates.

OTOH, non-Muslims are not to be killed unless they do harm to Islam.

[kimmy]

I'm more or less sickened at the idea of conservative Islam achieving a significant presence in this country.

Remember last year when that chump from Vancouver, Rudwan Khalil, got his stupid ass killed to death fighting Russians in Chechnya... and we had a few days of his relatives saying "ridiculous! our Rudwan is a peace-loving boy!" and so on... and mild media curiousity over what makes a Canadian boy join the Islamist rebels in Chechnya led to his mosque and it's Saudi-trained leader Younus Kathrada. Records of some of Kathrada's pro-jihad and anti-semetic rantings were found on the Dar Al-Madinah mosque's website, and the embarrassed mosque took them down.

But even at that, it took some bozo getting himself martyred half-way around the world to draw attention to the question of what went on at this mosque. But there's a lot more Saudi-funded mosques with Saudi-trained kooks at the helm, and we don't really know what goes on at any of them.

-k

[jbg]

But even at that, it took some bozo getting himself martyred half-way around the world to draw attention to the question of what went on at this mosque. But there's a lot more Saudi-funded mosques with Saudi-trained kooks at the helm, and we don't really know what goes on at any of them.

A wonderful job for CSIS or the US CIA.

[kimmy]

But even at that, it took some bozo getting himself martyred half-way around the world to draw attention to the question of what went on at this mosque. But there's a lot more Saudi-funded mosques with Saudi-trained kooks at the helm, and we don't really know what goes on at any of them.

A wonderful job for CSIS or the US CIA.

I don't know if the authorities are even *allowed* to keep tabs on a mosque until such time as they have reason to believe there's a crime being committed.

It seems to me that we can't do anything unless the muslim community itself speaks out, and many muslims are understandably reluctant to do so.

Interestingly, a group of Muslims did indeed speak out against Kathrada, fully 2 years before Rudwan Khalil turned up dead in Russia:

B.C. Muslims have been trying for at least two years to silence what they

call the "grotesque" anti-Jewish views of radical Vancouver cleric Sheik

Younus Kathrada.

A group of 20 Muslims signed a public letter in August 2002, denouncing

anti-Jewish remarks being spread by Kathrada's mosque -- calling on him and

his followers to apologize for "the harm you have caused to the Jewish

people, Judaism, the Muslim community and the Islamic faith."

Vancouver residents Rahat Kurd, 34, and her husband Hanif Abdul Karim, 40,

helped co-ordinate the letter of protest because they believe the

anti-Semitic, and anti-Christian views of Kathrada's group are not only

intolerable and illegal in Canada, but present Muslims as racists.

http://mostlywater.org/node/563

So what came of that? Well, Kathrada was still lecturing at Dar Al-Madinah 2 years later, and a look at the Dar Al-Madinah website shows that he's still a scheduled lecturer. It appears that even when the muslim community does speak out against a kook in its midst, and even when the authorities are made fully aware of hate speech going on, and even when national media catches wind of the story...

...nothing happens.

-k

[watching&waiting]

I like to think that I am pretty much a middle thinker when it comes to religions etc.. But I find myself being pulled to a more right of center when these things encroach on our way of like in Canada, on a daily basis. We welcome new Canadians but do we do enought to explain that here we have laws that supercede all religious laws, when there are disputes. We find prearranged marrige distasteful and against the law if either the bride or groom do not want to go threw with it. We do not allow the beating of your wife and family, and will not allow you to plead religious grounds. I think we also need to eplain to these people that there is a need to learn one of our official languages within a year of being here. We also should say how intolerent we are of those who preach violence and hate under any disguise.

As far as funding religions go, we should let them be as long as their religions are insync with our laws of the land. We should not allow funding to any organisation that then preaches to the masses how we are eveil and are not deserving. This is our country and we need to make sure that those we let in are aware of the values we seek and if they can not fit into that, then maybe they should seek another place to go. Yes we need immigration, but we do not need it to the point of allowing people who hate our way of life to come here and not try to fit in. This is Canada and we openly show what we stand for. If you can not see yourself as part of that, then we are not the place for you to call home.

[Drea]

Am I the only one who thinks this is wrong? Why are we allowing a foreign government to promote religious beliefs in Canada which are intollerent of our values and culture, and which can inspire violence and social upheaval in Canada? Perhaps, like Spain, we should monitor funding for mosques, community centres and ethnic schools, and ban any foreign money which aids alienation and fights against integration in Canada.

Quite definitely not. And for more on the religion of peace, and forced proselyzing, check out this New York Times article on forced conversion of kidnapped Fox newmen (link). Disgusting.

================================================================

JERUSALEM, Aug. 27 — Two journalists kidnapped in Gaza were released unharmed on Sunday after being forced at gunpoint to say on a videotape that they had converted to Islam.

*snip*

“I’m really fine, healthy in good shape and so happy to be free,” Mr. Centanni told Fox News. He said the two had been forced at gunpoint to say that they were converting to Islam and had taken Muslim names. “I have the highest respect for Islam,” he said. “But it was something we felt we had to do because they had the guns, and we didn’t know what the hell was going on.”

Earlier on Sunday, their captors delivered a video showing the two men in Arab robes reading from the Koran to indicate their conversion.

*snip*

In a brief news conference, Mr. Wiig said he hoped the kidnapping would not prevent foreign journalists from covering Gaza. “That would be a great tragedy for the people of Palestine and especially for the people of Gaza,” he said.

Mr. Wiig’s wife, Anita McNaught, a television journalist, thanked Palestinian officials and Fox News for their efforts. The men refused to take questions, then traveled to the Erez border crossing and entered Israel.

Mr. Centanni told his network that he and Mr. Wiig had been blindfolded, handcuffed and taken to the abandoned garage with a generator. “I was thinking, ‘Oh God, O.K., so a remote warehouse with a big noisy generator. I’m toast,’ ” Mr. Centanni said. “They could simply shoot me in the head, and no one would hear it.”

He said he and Mr. Wiig had been forced to make videotapes denouncing American policies as well as saying they had converted to Islam.

*snip*

All the captors did to them was force them to convert? Pretty tame compared to what could've been done to them.

100 million to 1 says they lied.

I'm sure they would have "converted" to anything -- as would anyone with a gun pointed to their head...

Now, these journalists, are they going to keep their new names? Go to mosque? Begin denouncing the western way of life from now on? Of course not - they lied to their captors -- wouldn't you?

[kimmy]

All the captors did to them was force them to convert? Pretty tame compared to what could've been done to them.

100 million to 1 says they lied.

I'm sure they would have "converted" to anything -- as would anyone with a gun pointed to their head...

Now, these journalists, are they going to keep their new names? Go to mosque? Begin denouncing the western way of life from now on? Of course not - they lied to their captors -- wouldn't you?

I think the question was why followers of the supposed "Religion of Peace" would be demanding conversion at gunpoint. (and hey, don't forget: as we recently learned in Afghanistan, once you're in, you're not allowed out. Leaving Islam is punishable by death.)

Historically, it's the Religion of Peace because everybody who wouldn't sign up is dead.

-k

[Leafless]

The activities of Islamic charities in the West are much the same as the activities of Christiean charities in non- Christian countries, even to the encouragement to overthrow existing governments. Those activities are protected in Canada by the Charter of Rights and are subject to the laws of Canada, including the so-called hate speech laws.

Wahabism is only one influence on Islamic militants and it directs most of its hatred against Moslems who believe differently from them and are thus, heretics, deserving of death and some more against fellow Muslims not living as the Prophet did but adopting Western, particularly US, ways.

I don't know a destructive piece of legislation like the 'Charter of rights and Freedoms' can continue to be allowed to be implemented in it's present form.

This Charter allows groups to crap on Canadians and their values, traditions and customs and opens the door to a dangerous dysfunctional society and allows foreign nationalities to change the face of Canada with THEIR customs, traditions and languages.

I doubt if Pierre Trudeau ever envisioned outside of Quebec other foreign nationalities presenting a serious problem threatening Canadian values, lifestyles and politics. But then who knows for sure, as a man as determined as Mr. Trudeau to put Quebec on the map initially would be capable of anything without worrying about consequences at a later date.

[jbg]

I don't know if the authorities are even *allowed* to keep tabs on a mosque until such time as they have reason to believe there's a crime being committed.

It seems to me that we can't do anything unless the muslim community itself speaks out, and many muslims are understandably reluctant to do so.

They should find a way. I'd rather CSIS and the CIA break a few laws than have a lot of people with broken heads.

[daddyhominum]

The activities of Islamic charities in the West are much the same as the activities of Christiean charities in non- Christian countries, even to the encouragement to overthrow existing governments. Those activities are protected in Canada by the Charter of Rights and are subject to the laws of Canada, including the so-called hate speech laws.

Wahabism is only one influence on Islamic militants and it directs most of its hatred against Moslems who believe differently from them and are thus, heretics, deserving of death and some more against fellow Muslims not living as the Prophet did but adopting Western, particularly US, ways.

I don't know a destructive piece of legislation like the 'Charter of rights and Freedoms' can continue to be allowed to be implemented in it's present form.

This Charter allows groups to crap on Canadians and their values, traditions and customs and opens the door to a dangerous dysfunctional society and allows foreign nationalities to change the face of Canada with THEIR customs, traditions and languages.

I doubt if Pierre Trudeau ever envisioned outside of Quebec other foreign nationalities presenting a serious problem threatening Canadian values, lifestyles and politics. But then who knows for sure, as a man as determined as Mr. Trudeau to put Quebec on the map initially would be capable of anything without worrying about consequences at a later date.

The Charter is a codification of pre-existing common law, tradition and the concepts of the classical liberal thought. It also embodies the United Nations Charter of Human Rights which Canada helped create and signed while Trudeau was a boy in short pants.

As such, the Charter is an embodiment of Canadian values, traditions and customs with respect human rights and freedoms. Perhaps I can read in another thread which Canadian values or traditions or customs the Charter is "destructive" toward.

The fear of the "other" is the basis for almost all hatred. Fear of the other can be quickly overcome by getting to know the other. Everyone is welcome in a mosque. If anyone fears the Canadians who follow Islam attended the mosque and made an effort to appreciate the beliefs of the other the fear and hate would be quickly resolved.

IMO, when someone lays a charge or implies treasonous behaviour against an identifiable group such as Canadians of the Moslem faith, those statements are very close to prescription by Canada's hate laws. How much better to seek rapprochment then reasons to hate.

[August1991]

I'm more or less sickened at the idea of conservative Islam achieving a significant presence in this country.

We may come to a point where we will negotiate equivalent treatment in respective countries. When Nixon negotiated detente with Brezhnev, it meant that Pan Am got to fly to Moscow, and Aeroflot to New York, Nixon got 20 minutes on Soviet TV and Brezhnev got 20 minutes on CBS, and so on.

Maybe we should try the same with Islamic countries. Their Imams can come here if our Baptist pastors can go there. How would the Saudis feel about a church anywhere in the Kingdom? Church? How about a mere bible?

Here's what one travel web site lists as prohibited items in Saudi Arabia:

Alcohol, all edible goods, narcotics and drugs (except medicines for personal use accompanied by a prescription), pornography, religious books (besides the Qu'ran), pork, firearms, natural pearls, live animals and birds, all types of palm trees, most foods and items listed as prohibited by the Arab League (copy available from the Embassy).

In fact, it is not merely forbidden to bring a bible into Saudi Arabia, it is forbidden to wear a crucifix, or even put on a Santa Claus suit. If a non-Muslim dies in Saudi Arabia, the remains must be removed from the country. It is unthinkable that a priest would arrive at the airport in Riyadh and calmly walk outside.

The frightening thing is that if Western countries negotiated with Islamic countries such similar treatment of Muslims here, the Islamic regimes would understand perfectly and respect the agreements. Modern technology and the ease of travel and communication means that we now confront people from our ancient past. We are truly dealing with the Roman Catholic church circa 950 AD.

[Leafless]

IMO, when someone lays a charge or implies treasonous behaviour against an identifiable group such as Canadians of the Moslem faith, those statements are very close to prescription by Canada's hate laws. How much better to seek rapprochment then reasons to hate.

There is no rapprochement concerning those Islamic Muslims who are involved concerning acts of cold blooded murder in societies throughout the world including Canada.

Muslims in general could all be considered potential suspects simply concerning the nature of the Islamic faith.

Are you suggesting it is criminal to be leery of Muslims in general?

I would squarely put the blame on your Muslim brothers who are creating world wide havoc.

What is the point of your reply where you state without proof " When someone lays a charge or implies treasonous behaviour against an identifiable group such as Canadians of the Muslim faith, those statements are very close to prescription by Canada's hate laws. How much better to seek rapprochement then reasons to hate."

Unless your more specific with your charges I suggest you take it up with the proper authorities or I could in fact interpret what your saying as a direct threat in order to stifle any anti-Muslim dialogue especially on a site that incorporates free speech.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Most people are unaware of the breadth and efforts of Saudi prostletyzing, or even that there is a difference between their brand of Islam and the kind of Islam practiced by most of the world. Saudi Islam is called Wahhabism, and is severe, ultra orthodox, and violently intollerent. And the Saudis have spent tens of billions spreading it around the world, opening thousands of schools in Pakistan and elsewhere, funding thousands of schools, mosques and community centres around the world - including in Canada. Some of the organizations responsible for lobbying for Sharia law in Ontario last year were funded by Saudi Arabia

Am I the only one who thinks this is wrong? Why are we allowing a foreign government to promote religious beliefs in Canada which are intollerent of our values and culture, and which can inspire violence and social upheaval in Canada? Perhaps, like Spain, we should monitor funding for mosques, community centres and ethnic schools, and ban any foreign money which aids alienation and fights against integration in Canada.

Saudi proselytizers are also interested in Muslims in the U.S. and other Western countries. Says Antoine Sfeir, the Lebanese-born editor of the Parisian quarterly Notebooks of the East: "Their message to Muslims in Europe and America is so extreme and intolerant: 'Do not accept their ways, and do not consider yourself as one of them. You only exist as a Muslim, respecting Muslim values alone.'" Abdulaziz Sachedina, a professor of religious studies at the University of Virginia who spent much of his career in Canada, says that most Sunni community centers in Canada receive Saudi funding. Carl Sharif El-Tobgui, a Ph.D. student at McGill University's Institute for Islamic Studies, which specializes in the worldwide spread of Islamic culture, estimates that 10% to 20% of Canada's 580,000 Muslims adhere to Wahhabism.

Saudi Funding

Backed by money from Saudi Arabia, Wahhabis have built or taken over hundreds of mosques in North America and opened branches of Saudi universities here for the training of imams as part of the effort to spread their beliefs, which are intolerant of Christianity, Judaism and even other strains of Islam.

"A growing body of accepted evidence and expert research demonstrates that the Wahhabi ideology that dominates, finances and animates many groups here in the United States, indeed is antithetical to the values of tolerance, individualism and freedom as we conceive these things," said Sen. Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.), who has been holding hearings on Wahhabism.

Spreading Wahabiism in America

Western governments, dependent on Saudi oil and needing Saudi Arabia as an important ally in the Middle East, continue to stress its moderating influence and opposition to terrorism. The reality is that, since the 1970s, Saudi Arabia has poured large amounts of its oil riches into the worldwide expansion of the strict and narrow Wahhabi form of Islam that is deeply hostile to any reformation and reinterpretation of Islam. It also has supported the most radical Muslim groups around the world, thus escalating their power and their slide into terrorism. Wahhabism had been a marginal extremist sect, but as a result of the oil money influx since the 1970s it has become part of mainstream Islam, redefining Muslim views worldwide. Extreme Wahhabi doctrines and attitudes – branding non-Muslims as infidels, judging other Muslims as apostates (this process of judging is called Takfir), and its emphasis on violent Jihad - helped it to forge alliances with similar-minded Islamist groups and lay the ideological basis for Islamist terrorism.

Campus watch

Great post - and a good addendum from a Mark Steyn barb:

This resurgent Islam – promoted by a malign alliance between Europe and the Saudis – is a much better example of globalization than McDonald’s. In Bangladesh and Bosnia, it’s put indigenous localized Islams out of business and imposed a one-size-fits-all Wahhab-Mart version cooked up by some guy at head office in Riyadh. One way to reverse its gains would be with a kind of anti-trust approach designed to restore all the less threatening mom’n’pop Islams run out of town by the Saudis’ Burqa King version of globalization. If a 21st century William Tayler is unlikely, perhaps Naomi Klein could step into the breach.

[daddyhominum]

IMO, when someone lays a charge or implies treasonous behaviour against an identifiable group such as Canadians of the Moslem faith, those statements are very close to prescription by Canada's hate laws. How much better to seek rapprochment then reasons to hate.

There is no rapprochement concerning those Islamic Muslims who are involved concerning acts of cold blooded murder in societies throughout the world including Canada.

Islamic Muslims ? as compared to what?

Muslims in general could all be considered potential suspects simply concerning the nature of the Islamic faith.

Suspects with regard to what?

Are you suggesting it is criminal to be leery of Muslims in general?

It isn't criminal but it is certainly silly at the least and ignorant at best.

I would squarely put the blame on your Muslim brothers who are creating world wide havoc.

I gather that you consider me part of the brotherhood of man which I accept. However, neither my Muslim brothers, my Jewish brothers, my Buddhist, Hindu, Zoroasteran, Jain, Sikh, Animist, Atheist or myriads of other brothers who are believers are responsible for all the world's havoc.

What is the point of your reply where you state without proof " When someone lays a charge or implies treasonous behaviour against an identifiable group such as Canadians of the Muslim faith, those statements are very close to prescription by Canada's hate laws. How much better to seek rapprochement then reasons to hate."

You said;

This Charter allows groups to crap on Canadians and their values, traditions and customs and opens the door to a dangerous dysfunctional society and allows foreign nationalities to change the face of Canada with THEIR customs, traditions and languages.

In the context of this thread, it is reasonable for me to infer that you are laying a charge of treason against

groups that"crap on Canadians and their values" and to infer that you mean Muslims, an identifiable religious group. I am also reasonable to infer that you are encouraging hatred toward groups that you unjustly accuse of 'crapping on Canadian values' because of their religious beliefs.

Unless your more specific with your charges I suggest you take it up with the proper authorities or I could in fact interpret what your saying as a direct threat in order to stifle any anti-Muslim dialogue especially on a site that incorporates free speech.

If you were as specific in your statements about groups as I have been about your charges that might be desirable. However, because I don't ask for charges to be lain against all hate-mongers does not mean that I must ignore them.

See: http://www.media-awareness.ca/english/issu...ate_a_crime.cfm

[Argus]

Why are we allowing a foreign government to promote religious beliefs in Canada which are intollerent of our values and culture, and which can inspire violence and social upheaval in Canada?

Replace Canada with China and you have a statement that describes the Chinese gov't's attitude towards Christian Missionary groups in China.

There are a few differences. Canada is a democratic nation. China is a totolitarian dictatorship where no one has any rights whatsoever. Canada has freedom of religion. China murders those who attempt to practice forbidden religions.

Equating the two is silly.

Furthermore, the few foreigners who attempt to proselytize in China are not telling the Chinese that the rest of the Chinese people are evil and immoral and inferior, and trying to get them to hate all the non-believers. And if they were, the Chinese would have a perfect right to ban such proselytizers.

[jbg]

Maybe we should try the same with Islamic countries. Their Imams can come here if our Baptist pastors can go there. How would the Saudis feel about a church anywhere in the Kingdom? Church? How about a mere bible?

Sounds like a plan. Volunteers, anyone? How abouto a Jewish synagogue for good measure?

[Argus]

Am I the only one who thinks this is wrong? Why are we allowing a foreign government to promote religious beliefs in Canada which are intollerent of our values and culture, and which can inspire violence and social upheaval in Canada? Perhaps, like Spain, we should monitor funding for mosques, community centres and ethnic schools, and ban any foreign money which aids alienation and fights against integration in Canada.

The Saudi government does not fund the spread of Islam under any banner. That is done by charities within Saudi Arabia

Which are funded by the Saudi government and the Saud family. Stop being disingenuous. You are wasting my time.

]The Saudi government has announced and, in some cases, undertaken some reform efforts to address Islamic extremism. For example, the government is undertaking educational and religious reforms, including revising textbooks and conducting a 3-year enlightenment program, to purge extremism and intolerance from religious education.

Largely window dressing and lies made for gullible foreigners.

A review of a sample of official Saudi textbooks for Islamic studies used during the current academic year reveals that, despite the Saudi government's statements to the contrary, an ideology of hatred toward Christians and Jews and Muslims who do not follow Wahhabi doctrine remains in this area of the public school system. The texts teach a dualistic vision, dividing the world into true believers of Islam (the "monotheists") and unbelievers (the "polytheists" and "infidels").

This indoctrination begins in a first-grade text and is reinforced and expanded each year, culminating in a 12th-grade text instructing students that their religious obligation includes waging jihad against the infidel to "spread the faith."

Washington Post

The activities of Islamic charities in the West are much the same as the activities of Christiean charities in non- Christian countries, even to the encouragement to overthrow existing governments.

It's true that occasionally Christian missionaries, sympathetic to their flock, angered at the brutality and murder practiced by corrupt governments, encourages the overthrowal of a government, but that is not done in any organized manner, and that missionary is not funded by any government. We are talking here about a multi-BILLION dollar organized government effort to encourage hatred against Christians, Jews, and Western values all over the world. To equate that with the occasional outraged missionary in Africa is spurious drivel.

Those activities are protected in Canada by the Charter of Rights and are subject to the laws of Canada, including the so-called hate speech laws.

Bullshit. There is nothing in the Charter which protects the right of foreign governments or thinly disguised foreign charities to pour money into Canada to support mosques and community centres in exchange for their preachers being allowed in to proseletyze. In fact, we are perfectly within our rights to simply ban all foreign mullahs or imams from coming to Canada to preach, to not let them have visas, much less allow them to immigrate.

Wahabism is only one influence on Islamic militants

It is not coincidence that after years of pouring billions into madrasses schools in Pakistan that Pakistan has become a hotbed of militant anti-western, anti-jewish fundamentalist Islam. It is not coincidence that after years of ignoring the problem and allowing Saudi Arabia funded preachers to largely take over their mosques that the British have a major problem now with home-grown Islamic terrorism. It is not coincidence that most of hte 911 hijackers were Saudis. Wahhabism might hate other Muslims but it hates us more.

OTOH, non-Muslims are not to be killed unless they do harm to Islam.

By like, breathing, eh?

[Argus]

The Charter is a codification of pre-existing common law, tradition and the concepts of the classical liberal thought. It also embodies the United Nations Charter of Human Rights which Canada helped create and signed while Trudeau was a boy in short pants.

The Charter is a document written by a committee of third rate lawyers and self-serving politicians designed to venerate Pierre Trudeau and ensure his place in history. Since it became law it has cost us tens of billions of dollars in legal manoeuvring by greasy lawyers.

There have been no benefits that I'm aware of.

The fear of the "other" is the basis for almost all hatred. Fear of the other can be quickly overcome by getting to know the other.

Soo, you advise a Jew to go and visit their local Heritage Front office and get to know them, right? So that their "irrational" hate of those "other" people will disappear? Heck, if Blacks would only get to know those White Pride skinheads, they'd quickly learn they're just plain folks. Hey, Nazis like dogs too!

If anyone fears the Canadians who follow Islam attended the mosque and made an effort to appreciate the beliefs of the other the fear and hate would be quickly resolved.

Right. I wouldn't be bothered by going to a mosque and learning that my girlfriend is a whore and that Muslims will one day rule triumphant and Sharia law will be put in place in Canada to deal properly with Infdels.

I mean, why wouldn't that reassure me?

IMO, when someone lays a charge or implies treasonous behaviour against an identifiable group such as Canadians of the Moslem faith, those statements are very close to prescription by Canada's hate laws. How much better to seek rapprochment then reasons to hate.

No one has done that, DM. But if the open discussion of issues and ideas is so troublesome to you you feel the need to repeatedly threaten people with prison I invite you to find some other web site where your delicate sensibilities won't be placed in danger.

[daddyhominum]

Am I the only one who thinks this is wrong? Why are we allowing a foreign government to promote religious beliefs in Canada which are intollerent of our values and culture, and which can inspire violence and social upheaval in Canada? Perhaps, like Spain, we should monitor funding for mosques, community centres and ethnic schools, and ban any foreign money which aids alienation and fights against integration in Canada.

The Saudi government does not fund the spread of Islam under any banner. That is done by charities within Saudi Arabia

Which are funded by the Saudi government and the Saud family. Stop being disingenuous. You are wasting my time.

You are incorrect .

]The Saudi government has announced and, in some cases, undertaken some reform efforts to address Islamic extremism. For example, the government is undertaking educational and religious reforms, including revising textbooks and conducting a 3-year enlightenment program, to purge extremism and intolerance from religious education.

Largely window dressing and lies made for gullible foreigners

.

I have to choose between accepting your opinion or the studied report I quoted.

A review of a sample of official Saudi textbooks for Islamic studies used during the current academic year reveals that, despite the Saudi government's statements to the contrary, an ideology of hatred toward Christians and Jews and Muslims who do not follow Wahhabi doctrine remains in this area of the public school system. The texts teach a dualistic vision, dividing the world into true believers of Islam (the "monotheists") and unbelievers (the "polytheists" and "infidels").

This indoctrination begins in a first-grade text and is reinforced and expanded each year, culminating in a 12th-grade text instructing students that their religious obligation includes waging jihad against the infidel to "spread the faith."

Washington Post

Your quote is about the educational practices in Islamic nations rather then the Muslims in Canada. Stop being disengenous. Your wasting time. Stay focussed.

The activities of Islamic charities in the West are much the same as the activities of Christiean charities in non- Christian countries, even to the encouragement to overthrow existing governments.

It's true that occasionally Christian missionaries, sympathetic to their flock, angered at the brutality and murder practiced by corrupt governments, encourages the overthrowal of a government, but that is not done in any organized manner, and that missionary is not funded by any government. We are talking here about a multi-BILLION dollar organized government effort to encourage hatred against Christians, Jews, and Western values all over the world. To equate that with the occasional outraged missionary in Africa is spurious drivel.

After observing the history of Christendom's conversion of the idolaters they found as they conquered peoples around the world, one really needs to be blind to claim innocence for the Christian faith and ascribe evil to others.

In fact believing that Muslims are worse then Christians in instigating hate around the world is a shocking denial of observable facts

Those activities are protected in Canada by the Charter of Rights and are subject to the laws of Canada, including the so-called hate speech laws.

Bullshit. There is nothing in the Charter which protects the right of foreign governments or thinly disguised foreign charities to pour money into Canada to support mosques and community centres in exchange for their preachers being allowed in to proseletyze. In fact, we are perfectly within our rights to simply ban all foreign mullahs or imams from coming to Canada to preach, to not let them have visas, much less allow them to immigrate.

The bullshit is your claim, in the face of evidence to the contrary, that SA funds mosques etc. directly. And it is not a fact that "we" are within our rights to ban innocent peole from speaking or immigrating to Canada because we don't like their beliefs.

Wahabism is only one influence on Islamic militants

It is not coincidence that after years of pouring billions into madrasses schools in Pakistan that Pakistan has become a hotbed of militant anti-western, anti-jewish fundamentalist Islam. It is not coincidence that after years of ignoring the problem and allowing Saudi Arabia funded preachers to largely take over their mosques that the British have a major problem now with home-grown Islamic terrorism. It is not coincidence that most of hte 911 hijackers were Saudis. Wahhabism might hate other Muslims but it hates us more.

Was it the SA government and Wahabism then that caused the Indian Raj to split into India and Pakistan? Pakistan was borne out of a desire to have a state ruled by Islam.

Religious fanaticism exists in every country and deaths resulted from the Catholicism of the IRA, the cruelty of David Koresh, the bombs of the Irgun, the self-immolation of Buddhist priests and the desparate Kamikaze pilots of WW2. It isn't a special feature of any one belief system.

OTOH, non-Muslims are not to be killed unless they do harm to Islam.

By like, breathing, eh?

More commonly by attacking nations that Muslims believe are part of the land of the Ummah.

One thing is clear in recent years that you cannot win the hearts and minds of others by dropping bombs on them and invading their lands.

Perhaps we should study the techniques you claim that the Saudi's use to influence people without shooting at them ? Or do you suppose that only Muslims would stoop to peaceful means to win the hearts and minds of people?

[jbg]

One thing is clear in recent years that you cannot win the hearts and minds of others by dropping bombs on them and invading their lands.

Perhaps we should study the techniques you claim that the Saudi's use to influence people without shooting at them ? Or do you suppose that only Muslims would stoop to peaceful means to win the hearts and minds of people?

I'm supposed to accept their version of what the Ummah is. Does it include Spain, which was once Muslim? Or Austria, to the gates of Vienna (but presumably not beyond)?

[Leafless]

daddyhominum:

You wrote: "If you were as specific in your statements about groups as I have been about your charges that might be desirable. However, because I don't ask for charges to be lain against all hate-mongers does not mean that I must ignore them."

Quit playing dumb as you know we are talking terrorism and terroist Muslims who murder civilians worldwide in senseless attacks against the masses.

Citizens of Canada or any country have a right to be suspicious of particulary Arab Muslims who might act suspiciously or even disassociate themselves totally from that group in a way that does not prescribe hate but rather disgust at how low certain members of this group operates in it's destructive manner relating to acts of terrorism.

[Argus]

The Saudi government does not fund the spread of Islam under any banner. That is done by charities within Saudi Arabia

Which are funded by the Saudi government and the Saud family. Stop being disingenuous. You are wasting my time.

You are incorrect .

You are lying.

The Saudi government has announced and, in some cases, undertaken some reform efforts to address Islamic extremism. For example, the government is undertaking educational and religious reforms, including revising textbooks and conducting a 3-year enlightenment program, to purge extremism and intolerance from religious education.

Largely window dressing and lies made for gullible foreigners

.

I have to choose between accepting your opinion or the studied report I quoted.

You mean the report you misquoted and misread? That report?

A review of a sample of official Saudi textbooks for Islamic studies used during the current academic year reveals that, despite the Saudi government's statements to the contrary, an ideology of hatred toward Christians and Jews and Muslims who do not follow Wahhabi doctrine remains in this area of the public school system. The texts teach a dualistic vision, dividing the world into true believers of Islam (the "monotheists") and unbelievers (the "polytheists" and "infidels").

This indoctrination begins in a first-grade text and is reinforced and expanded each year, culminating in a 12th-grade text instructing students that their religious obligation includes waging jihad against the infidel to "spread the faith."

Washington Post

Your quote is about the educational practices in Islamic nations rather then the Muslims in Canada. Stop being disengenous. Your wasting time. Stay focussed.

You said the Saudi government is purging textbooks of extremism. The above was a direct response, and you claim it's not on topic? Is English a second language to you? Where are you from? I'm getting it's not here.

It's true that occasionally Christian missionaries, sympathetic to their flock, angered at the brutality and murder practiced by corrupt governments, encourages the overthrowal of a government, but that is not done in any organized manner, and that missionary is not funded by any government. We are talking here about a multi-BILLION dollar organized government effort to encourage hatred against Christians, Jews, and Western values all over the world. To equate that with the occasional outraged missionary in Africa is spurious drivel.

After observing the history of Christendom's conversion of the idolaters they found as they conquered peoples around the world, one really needs to be blind to claim innocence for the Christian faith and ascribe evil to others.

The "HISTORY" yes, indeed. There was a time Christians dealt poorly with idolaters. Mind you, there was a time Islam converted whole cities by the sword - either to Islam or to fertlizer. Islam was spread by brutal, barbaric violence wherein people where convererted or murdered. It was much worse than Christianity.

But of course, all that is history - to us. We don't execute people now for insulting God. We don't murder people for being heretics. We don't give classes on how to beat women so they can still do their housework afterwards or execute them for being immoral. Only the Muslim world sanctions that kind of thing.

Those activities are protected in Canada by the Charter of Rights and are subject to the laws of Canada, including the so-called hate speech laws.

Bullshit. There is nothing in the Charter which protects the right of foreign governments or thinly disguised foreign charities to pour money into Canada to support mosques and community centres in exchange for their preachers being allowed in to proseletyze. In fact, we are perfectly within our rights to simply ban all foreign mullahs or imams from coming to Canada to preach, to not let them have visas, much less allow them to immigrate.

The bullshit is your claim, in the face of evidence to the contrary,

Where? Where?

that SA funds mosques etc. directly. And it is not a fact that "we" are within our rights to ban innocent peole from speaking or immigrating to Canada because we don't like their beliefs.

Yeah, in fact it is. The government can stop people from coming here whenever it wants. We can ban foreign money from any kind of enterprise we like if it's shown to be against the national interest. The Charter has nothing to say about any of it.

Religious fanaticism exists in every country

Perhaps. But almost all the violent religious fanatics seem to be in the Muslim world.

By the way, it's very annoying trying to figure out what you're saying when you keep screwing up the quoting features. And if you can't even figure out how that works why should anyone think much of your opinions on more important issues?