Wilders on Trial

[Oleg Bach]

How does a steaming pile of classical anti-Semite nonsense like this go unnoticed?

IT could be said about any group of people- does that make me an anti-humanist? I find it amusing how Bonam diligently searches out any remark that might be deemed as anti...and the relentless hunting for anti-semitics is quite insane..again- I could say what I said of any group - the fact it seems that all are touchable to some degree and others seem to belong to the sacred and untouchable.

[Oleg Bach]

Continued: There is no real interest on my part in this issue. Frankly I don't care if all the anti-humanists attack me for being an honest guy who simply for entertainment purposes pointed out a few anecdotal tales based in experience..I guess I should have plugged my ears and closed my eyes. I do not care for the angry and controling former Christian Anglo barbarians nor do I care for their Jewish associates-- they did not care for me and I don't give a damn for them...call me old and jaded but in my wisdom I am a pragmatist- I do not protect those that do not protect me...so you can all f off...cheers.

[Oleg Bach]

Really thought for a while that Mutt on the porch was going to put me on trail and cruxify my ass for being a Jew hater---I really don't have time for that-- I sure would like to cruxify some Romans though..never liked Italian food or culture..maybe I am an anit-Italiano..wonder if that is a hate crime?

[Oleg Bach]

Why is it that people pay so much attention to such garbage and grant free publicity to these twits? My son once was pretrubed with nasty people and said.."it would be nice to give them all a wack in the face" I told him if he devoted his energy to such matters that his hand would wear out and fall off the first day.

Some seem predisposed to being haters..it might be taught or it might be early conditioning during childhood..none the less...usually hate shows a lack of thought..an easy fix to percieved problems and injustice...If we hate all we do is grant more fury to idiots. Hate is a great weakness and allows inferiour forces to control us--I refuse to fall into this dark and powerless vortex..those that hate should be treated as lost and pitiful human beings...and ignored if at all possible--unless they gain a following then they must be crushed with the weight of embarrassment.

[DogOnPorch]

Four replies to yourself. Well done.

[Oleg Bach]

Four replies to yourself. Well done.

YOU HAVE TO MAKE DUE.

[JB Globe]

Do you also characterize Ayaan Hirsi Ali as a 'white nationalist'?

No, she's just a straight-up anti-Islamic bigot, I've yet to read any of her comments on other racial/cultural minorities, she doesn't seem to care about that angle.

As for the quote you pulled, I was talking about White Nationalists in general, not Geertie.

He's a bigot, but he's a crafty one - he won't explicitly promote violence, because he knows the minute he does that he'll be in big trouble. Hence his tactic is to inflame, inflame, inflame until a small amount of people on the other side snap and do something stupid and violent - then he uses this minor incident to tar and feather the whole group.

Of course, if some White Nationalist thugs beat up a Turkish kid and put him on life support - that in no way represents the people in his camp, because he never explicitly supported such actions . . . He just helped create the climate where such actions become acceptable among some people.

Edited February 28, 2010 by JB Globe

[Oleg Bach]

Saw a white guy walking along side of the AGO...It was slushy and there was this poor asian on his rickety bike--carefully passing the white guy- the nasty middle aged jerk with a cane that he carried like a weapon pushed the poor guy over bike and all-- then he screamed "this is my country" - before you know it both parties were threatening to kill each other-- the asian guy was in a blind rage so was the white guy--the Asian said 'why did you touch me?"

The white dude had no answer..I stayed out of the way fearing one might have a knife..later I consoled the poor Asian and advised him not to let jerks anger you to the point of weakness and loss of control--It is a pretty artsy hood and most people are bright and get along--I was quite shocked to see this barbarity..I guess the loser white guy needed a whipping boy--so he picked the weaker loser.

[DogOnPorch]

JBGlobe: No, she's just a straight-up anti-Islamic bigot, I've yet to read any of her comments on other racial/cultural minorities, she doesn't seem to care about that angle.

A straight-up anti-Islamic bigot, eh?

How about Wafa Sultan? Brainwashed dupe of the Zionist-controlled media?

[Oleg Bach]

A straight-up anti-Islamic bigot, eh?

How about Wafa Sultan? Brainwashed dupe of the Zionist-controlled media?

LARRY KING IS CONTROLLED BY THE MUSLIMS? I DID NOT KNOW THAT- I could have sworn he was a lacky jerked by the Hindi Mafia.

[DogOnPorch]

Or how about Wilders' pal, Ehsan Jami? Lemme guess...a hate filled, anti-Islamic racist that pulls the wings off of flies when not kicking small children?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehsan_Jami

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2426314.ece

[DogOnPorch]

LARRY KING IS CONTROLLED BY THE MUSLIMS? I DID NOT KNOW THAT- I could have sworn he was a lacky jerked by the Hindi Mafia.

Do you mind posting your crap in some other thread? Thanks.

[Oleg Bach]

Do you mind posting your crap in some other thread? Thanks.

You are still mad at me...just when I thought we were getting along..okay- I know how to take direction..see yah.

[DogOnPorch]

You are still mad at me...just when I thought we were getting along..okay- I know how to take direction..see yah.

You post more or less senseless drivel and respond to your own posts...just go-away.

[Oleg Bach]

You post more or less senseless drivel and respond to your own posts...just go-away.

I was gone and you called me back- it should have ended when I said goodbye--seems you have less control than I do..I just came to peak and you are still talking to me when I am not there. I do not respond to my own posts,,it is one long post..just happen to take up some easy space that's all. OKAY lets try it again-- I* am leaving...end of story and please don't start talking when I go out the door.

[JB Globe]

A straight-up anti-Islamic bigot, eh?

Of course, anyone who believes that Islam through and through is an evil and destructive force and must be eliminated from the world is a bigot.

We all have no problem thinking that of folks who hold those beliefs about Judaism.

Same rules apply.

How about Wafa Sultan?

The Wafa Sultan phenomenon is what happens when you have a number of people who have prejudged Islam to be evil and want to do the Confirmation Bias-Boogie.

That's how some people elevate Wafa Sultan, who is a Psychiatrist, to a supposed expert on Islamic Theology and politics in the Muslim world. Even though she is woefully unqualified to make judgements on religious theology (of any kind) some nutters who desperately need someone who is an "other" with special "insider information" to confirm their biases will latch onto her as a credible source.

My favourite part about Sultan has got to be her rhetoric, it gives new meaning to the word shrill, ie - the title of her latest book - A God Who Hates: The Courageous Woman Who Inflamed the Muslim World Speaks Out Against the Evils of Radical Islam

Now that's classic.

Oh, and there's also the fact that some of her claims about her life (ie - that a professor of hers was shot in front of her eyes on campus while students shouted God is great) were discredited.

Edited March 1, 2010 by JB Globe

[jbg]

Condell's an amazingly effective, blunt and humorous speaker.

The problem for the Leftists is that they refuse to acknowledge that Islam is not merely a religion but a political ideology. Refusing to allow anyone to say anything against Islam deprives people of the right to effectively oppose the political ideology. And that ideology is completely at odds with western concepts of freedom.

Someone should ask the leftists the Islamic view of female and gay rights.

[DogOnPorch]

Of course, anyone who believes that Islam through and through is an evil and destructive force and must be eliminated from the world is a bigot.

We all have no problem thinking that of folks who hold those beliefs about Judaism.

Same rules apply.

If you can find a source that states Ayaan Hirsi Ali wants all Muslims eliminated from the world, I'd like to see it. Trying to equate her to Reinhard Heydrich is 'rich' as you'd say.

The Wafa Sultan phenomenon is what happens when you have a number of people who have prejudged Islam to be evil and want to do the Confirmation Bias-Boogie.

That's how some people elevate Wafa Sultan, who is a Psychiatrist, to a supposed expert on Islamic Theology and politics in the Muslim world. Even though she is woefully unqualified to make judgements on religious theology (of any kind) some nutters who desperately need someone who is an "other" with special "insider information" to confirm their biases will latch onto her as a credible source.

My favourite part about Sultan has got to be her rhetoric, it gives new meaning to the word shrill, ie - the title of her latest book - A God Who Hates: The Courageous Woman Who Inflamed the Muslim World Speaks Out Against the Evils of Radical Islam

Now that's classic.

Oh, and there's also the fact that some of her claims about her life (ie - that a professor of hers was shot in front of her eyes on campus while students shouted God is great) were discredited.

Discredited by whom? That would be interesting to find out. Does one need a special degree to speak out about Islam? Or, in your opinion, can only Islamic scholars speak out about some of the rather obvious negative aspects of Islam? Perhaps you'd prefer anti-blasphemy laws. A good stiff fine or jail time would sure calm the waters.

[DogOnPorch]

Here's the source of the so-called discredit...One of Islam's more infamous hate-mongers. Yousuf Al Qaradhawi. Rich...

Rant, rave, foam-at-the-mouth.

Famous Jew-baiting blurt...one of many.

Throughout history, Allah has imposed upon the [Jews] people who would punish them for their corruption. The last punishment was carried out by Hitler. By means of all the things he did to them – even though they exaggerated this issue – he managed to put them in their place. This was divine punishment for them. Allah willing, the next time will be at the hand of the believers.

[JB Globe]

If you can find a source that states Ayaan Hirsi Ali wants all Muslims eliminated from the world, I'd like to see it. Trying to equate her to Reinhard Heydrich is 'rich' as you'd say.

Why don't you vet people before you put them up on a pedestal?

Original link here

It's worth asking: what effect, if any, has Hirsi Ali's brief time at AEI had on the development of her ideas? She has been interviewed many times in the past year. By far the most informative interview she has given was an extensive and at times challenging exchange with Dutch-born journalist Rogier van Bakel in the November 2007 issue of the Libertarian magazine Reason. She began by saying that, in spite of an initial aversion to the AEI (because she "thought they would be religious"), she finally chose it because they were "enthusiastic about" her, and none of the other Washington institutions she visited seemed to offer a good match. (One of those she mentioned was Georgetown University, where it has been reliably reported that most of the Muslim and non-Muslim women in one class studying Islam had expressed offense at some of her anti-Islamic views.) "[At AEI] I have complete freedom of thought, freedom of expression," Hirsi Ali added. "No one here imposed their religion on me, and I don't impose my atheism on them."

When asked, "Do you see eye to eye with high-profile AEI hawks such as former Bush speechwriter David Frum and former U.N. Ambassador John Bolton?" she replied, "Most of the time I do. For instance, I completely and utterly agree with John Bolton that talking to Iran is a sheer waste of time."

The following exchange was particularly revealing:

Q: Do you think Islam could bring about [desirable] social and political changes?

A: Only if Islam is defeated.

Q: Don't you mean defeating radical Islam?

A: No. Islam, period.

Q: We have to crush the world's 1.5 billion Muslims under our boot? In concrete terms, what does that mean, "defeat Islam"?

A: I think that we are at war with Islam..you crush your enemy.

Q: Militarily?

A: In all forms.

Q: Are we really heading toward anything so ominous?

A: I think that's where we're heading.

Asked to respond to the comment that "we are not at war with Islam," she offered, without answering directly, "There is no moderate Islam."

Q: So when even..Daniel Pipes says, "Radical Islam is the problem, but moderate Islam is the solution," he's wrong?

A: He's wrong. Sorry about that.

WHAT IT ALL MEANS

Hirsi Ali and her writings have many merits. Millions of people around the world celebrate her liberation from the hardships and horrors of her childhood years and rejoice in her emancipation into an intellectually more fulfilled adult woman. Beyond this, she wants to share her joy with others, wants to teach them what she has learned, and hopes that they will become as free as she is.

Though she has won universal approval for her eagerness to help other individuals who have suffered human rights abuses, a storm of controversy has arisen over her criticism of certain morally and legally relativistic forms of multiculturalism. These practices are stoutly defended by many who may consider themselves social liberals, not only in the Netherlands but elsewhere in Europe, on the grounds that they are "respectful of other cultures." But as Hirsi Ali correctly points out, such an argument ignores fundamental principles of human rights. No matter how they may be rationalized by their supporters, when laws and customs turn a blind eye to human rights abuses if and only if they occur in the context of minority communities, they inevitably injure some members of these communities. What may ultimately be even worse is that they tend, apartheid-like, to prevent genuine integration of both the injured individuals and the communities into the larger society. They are perhaps best understood as racist vestiges of colonialism, motivated more by a desire for low-cost labor ("guest workers") than by sympathy or understanding for the workers, their families, or their cultures.

So far so good. But the methods she has chosen for achieving her desirable goals, and the results they would be likely to achieve if widely adopted, are another matter. Her approach is poorly informed about the past and present of Islam, ineffectual at best, mainly counter-productive, and at worst potentially catastrophic in its consequences. It is here, too, that the influences of her principal intellectual environments since 2003--the VVD Party in the Netherlands and the American Enterprise Institute in the United States--taken as a whole, have clearly discouraged her development as a well-balanced defender of human rights and security.

Hirsi Ali's prior experience of Islam was confined to her youthful and often painful life in Africa: the tribal variety in Somalia, the strict Wahhabi version in Saudi Arabia, and in Kenya the Islamist political formulations of the Muslim Brothers and even more radical Sayyid Qutb--all followed by her intense contact with mainly African (e.g., Somali and Moroccan) immigrant women who had suffered abuse in the Netherlands. She knew little about the complex history of Islam in other times and other places.

With this background she was much too quick to accept Osama bin Laden's novel revolutionary interpretations of the Quran as "truth." She didn't acknowledge that such tribal practices as female genital mutilation and "honor killings" were contrary to Islamic (Sharia) law. She didn't sympathize with Muslim women who told her that her insulting and inaccurate generalizations about Islam were harmful to their own efforts to reform Islam and improve the position of women. She wasn't impressed by Muslim women who said that they had loving relationships with their own husbands, and that Islam wasn't a problem for them. She didn't recognize the efforts of "progressive" and secular Muslims to introduce reforms or "renew" Islam to make it more compatible with democracy and human rights. Perhaps most importantly, she didn't take into account the predictable loss of trust that her complete rejection of Islam and embrace of atheism would create among those whose lives and relationships were centered on Islam.

Now, after a year in the United States, when she appears to favor "war against Islam" unconditionally, readers may ask what she might actually mean by this. In further refusing to acknowledge the existence of such an entity as "moderate Islam" and thereby positioning herself to the right of right-wing author Daniel Pipes, who has far better knowledge of the history of Islam, she ends up in a tiny minority of ultra-right, anti-Islamic commentators on these fundamental issues. Incidentally, these extreme conclusions go far beyond any of her published statements before her year with the American Enterprise Institute.

But there is a better way. Hirsi Ali has sometimes characterized allusions to moderate, benign, and peaceful forms of Islam as "wishful thinking." In the light of Islamic history and prospects for the future, "hopeful" would seem a better word. More importantly, if solutions to the current impasse between radical Islam and modern society are to be found, it will be necessary for people of good will to work toward building a world where the beneficent features of Islam are encouraged to grow, naturally and spontaneously, and the noxious, destructive interpretations of Islam allowed to languish.

Discredited by whom?

link

As to the claim that her professor (thought to be Yusef Al-Yusef) was gunned down before her eyes in a faculty classroom at the University of Aleppo, Halabi said the incident never took place. "There was a professor who was killed around 1979, that is true, but it was off-campus and Sultan was not even around when it happened," he added.

InFocus contacted the University of Aleppo and spoke to Dr. Riyad Asfari, Dean of the Faculty of Medicine, who confirmed Halabi’s account. "Yes, the assassination took place off-campus," he said. Dr. Asfari was keen to add that no one had ever been killed in a classroom anytime or anywhere at the university.

Syrian expatriate Ghada Moezzin, who attended the University of Aleppo in 1979 as a sophomore, told InFocus that she never heard of the assassination. "We would’ve known about the killing if it had happened," she said. "It would have been big news on campus and I do not recall ever hearing about it." Moezzin, who lives in Glendora, Calif., added that government security was always present around the university given the political climate in Syria at the time.

What are perceived as inconsistencies and half-truths like these convince Sultan’s critics that the motive behind her invectives against Islam and Muslims is other than her alleged desire for reform.

Does one need a special degree to speak out about Islam? Or, in your opinion, can only Islamic scholars speak out about some of the rather obvious negative aspects of Islam?

Anyone can speak about Islam all they want.

But if I want an opinion on Islamic Theology, I'm going to trust someone who's studied the Qu'ran a lot more than I am someone who flipped through the book looking for the bits they could pluck out that justified their prejudiced notion of what Islam is or isn't.

That's my point - is that you can't find a single recognized authority on Islam that agrees with Ali's or Sultan's view that "Islam itself is the enemy" and "there is no such thing as moderate Islam"

The only people who agree with them are White Nationalists like Geertie.

That tells you something.

Edited March 2, 2010 by JB Globe

[DogOnPorch]

The Humanist and InFocus...no bias there. None @ all...lol.

More jack-booted Islamophobia.

[ToadBrother]

Anyone can speak about Islam all they want.

But if I want an opinion on Islamic Theology, I'm going to trust someone who's studied the Qu'ran a lot more than I am someone who flipped through the book looking for the bits they could pluck out that justified their prejudiced notion of what Islam is or isn't.

That's my point - is that you can't find a single recognized authority on Islam that agrees with Ali's or Sultan's view that "Islam itself is the enemy" and "there is no such thing as moderate Islam"

The only people who agree with them are White Nationalists like Geertie.

That tells you something.

Good luck finding any authority that will agree. Heck, you can't even get that for the Bible, which has had centuries more theological work done it than the Koran. There hasn't been a single consistent interpretative and theological framework for Islam since Mohammed's time, within a generation or so it had already split into a number of sects, though only two now survive in any substantial degree (Sunni and Shia). But even here, there is no central authority, no pope of any kind, and this lack of any kind of hierarchy means that many groups within and outside of Islam can say darned near anything. A lot of what passes around these parts of criticism of Islam is as sensible as trying to declare that all of Christendom behaves like whacked-out anti-Semitic Southern Pentecostals.

To some extent, Christianity, or at least major branches of it, do have the advantage in that there are narrowly-defined theologies; whether it be Catholicism, Orthodoxism, Anglicanism or Lutheranism, though even these do afford some leeway, at least you can point to certain overarching principles or claims, or even to major figures like Martin Luther or St. Augustine and say "Read these guys for a good notion of where our church stands."

There are experts on Islam, and certain Imams who are considered to be well respected experts, but Islam is a lot more like Judaism in that it has never really accrued any strict hierarchical theological and dogmatic structure (or rather, whatever unity there was is long in the past), which makes, in the case of both religions, grand declarations of all but the most basic theological points doomed to inaccuracy.

Edited March 1, 2010 by ToadBrother

[jbg]

Do you mind posting your crap in some other thread? Thanks.

How about some other board?

[JB Globe]

The Humanist and InFocus...no bias there. None @ all...lol.

1 - If you're going to present Pat Condell's ignorant diatribes as informed opinion in this post, you can't turn around and whine like a pussy when someone posts something from a special interest magazine. Be a man once in a while and take responsibility for your own s***.

2 - Why don't you show me where the supposed bias is in these links? Are you being disingenuous so you can avoid dealing with facts that counter your claims? Do you lack the brain power to be able to critique those articles? What's the issue here?

3 - This is just about shooting the messenger (the publication) and not dealing with the facts. ie - You don't have anything to counter that the dean of the school that Sultan attended said that her version of events is wrong, and you challenged me to prove Ali stated that she believes Islam must be destroyed, I proved it, and now rather than deal with something that runs counter to your narrative, you're going to avoid it at all costs.

The best part about all this is that you're claiming that the Humanist, a magazine of an ATHEIST social movement is biased against ANOTHER ATHEIST, to the degree where you can disregard anything they say in an article about her.

If you're not a complete hack, who is?

[JB Globe]

There are experts on Islam, and certain Imams who are considered to be well respected experts, but Islam is a lot more like Judaism in that it has never really accrued any strict hierarchical theological and dogmatic structure (or rather, whatever unity there was is long in the past), which makes, in the case of both religions, grand declarations of all but the most basic theological points doomed to inaccuracy.

Which is why people who actually STUDY Islam as they would study any other social construct view people like Pat Condell, Hirsi Ali, and other bigots as complete morons.

They're blatant cousins of White Supremacists.