Never-ending growth plundering the earth

[quinton]

How to save the world from being made uninhabitable by human growth:

-Stop all immigration. (people should have to deal with the country they were born in)

-Stop exporting goods from one country to another. (if survival essentials cannot be produced locally, people should not live there)

-Stop population growth by imposing extreme taxes for having children that make having children undesirable for all.

-Outlaw the use of unecessary luxuries like home air conditioning units in Canada as well as cars and automobiles for home users.

-Eventually give families their own land and let them sustain themselves by subsistence hunting and agriculture

I know the ideas above sound extreme, but I maintain that they lead to a more satisfying healthy life that is good for people and the planet.

[Renegade]

-Stop all immigration. (people should have to deal with the country they were born in)

Why on earth would you do that? If one area was overpopulated to extreme, it could potentially ravage the land to the point that it was unrecoverable. Other areas may be uninhabited and could sustain some population. This policy could acually cause huge damage to certain parts of the world. Is your plan to allow those areas to get so overpopulated and then collapse through mass-starvation so that the numbers are then reduced?

-Stop exporting goods from one country to another. (if survival essentials cannot be produced locally, people should not live there)

This would lead to mass inefficiencies. For example if each country had to produce its own, wheat, rice, all fruit crops, etc, do you really think they could without mass wasteful infficiency? What about small countries who lack the diversity to grow eveything they need? Do they close shop? What happens to their population, since they can't immigrate due to policy 1 above?

-Stop population growth by imposing extreme taxes for having children that make having children undesirable for all.

Since we are being so coercive, why not just mass sterilization?

-Outlaw the use of unecessary luxuries like home air conditioning units in Canada as well as cars and automobiles for home users.

Since everything above subsistance living is a "luxury" should we then resort to subistance living?

-Eventually give families their own land and let them sustain themselves by subsistence hunting and agriculture

Doubtful that very many will agree to the massive drop in the standard of living which is the net result of this.

[speaker]

Quinton, being just a little facetious here, : so you figure we should stop immigration to the world?

Okay, I understand that you mean into your country. Canada being the least populated country on the planet and one of the wealthiest is going to be hard pressed to justify stopping immigration. That said I think that population growth has to stop, I don't know if you have created any kids but the thing that was farthest from my mind at the time was how much extra taxes I was going to have to pay. I think our only option is education, as you're doing, about the dire straits we're in.

Consumption taxes on goods that aren't necessary, and depletion taxes on goods that remove from the planets resource stock, to ensure complete restoration. Local self reliance whenever possible, balcony gardens, providing land to the people who stand a chance of making it as farmers, or foresters, and who understand that such occupations have to be sustainable for the people of earth to survive.

Hardships are going on now. A whale of a lot more serious than any Canadians are feeling. It would be really nice if we could achieve a steady state without more, but we will achieve a level spot whether we are willing to sacrifice some or not. My hope is that we do it soon enough that the level spot isn't at the top of a long and painful downhill slide.

Education. for the most insulated people, the business people, the urban poor, the politicians and upper level bureaucrats.

[quinton]

Yes mass sterilization would also work, but not in a democracy.

A major incentive might be used like $1 million dollars for allowing yourself to be sterilized.

Alas, I don't realistically think that anything will be done. I think it is already too late.

Even the national parks will eventually get exploited.

The earth will eventually be robbed of all of its natural wealth.

Economic growth (more people and more consumption of goods) will destroy us.

[Renegade]

Yes mass sterilization would also work, but not in a democracy.

Actually almost none of your policies will work in a democracy as in every case there will be a negative impact to people, and something the majority is not likely to support.

So if you assumption is that in a democracy people will "choose" the policies you have suggested above, you are being completely unrealistic.

[quinton]

Yes I agree that people are too uneducated to understand that these policies are for their own good.

Therefore I believe mankind is doomed.

In India for example, the government almost implemented mass sterilization for population control, and then they got voted out. So it backfired and the population exploded quickly when the new government took over. Obviously this population explosion was to the detriment of Indian wildlife habitat. The new government won't even broach the topic of population control.

The earth will slowly lose all of what makes it livable for human beings including resources, biodiversity, etc.

What is left will be reserved for the elite.

[Hicksey]

Yes mass sterilization would also work, but not in a democracy.

A major incentive might be used like $1 million dollars for allowing yourself to be sterilized.

Alas, I don't realistically think that anything will be done. I think it is already too late.

Even the national parks will eventually get exploited.

The earth will eventually be robbed of all of its natural wealth.

Economic growth (more people and more consumption of goods) will destroy us.

Keep complaining about people taking advantage of our resources all you want, but you really need to start presenting real solutions that will work in society today. Your extremist solutions will not fly in a free society and we all know it. I understand you care deeply for the environment. A lot of other Canadians do too. I am mindful that if we want to make changes we need to get these people on board. Doing that means we have to do it within the constrictions of what society will follow or can be lead to reasonably. And because we have to start somewhere I made the suggestions I did above.

[quinton]

None of the status quo environmental policies or actions will address the root problem of our culture of economic growth which equals population growth times consumption per capita growth.

It would take something extreme to prevent the earth from being exhausted.

For starters, the human population would have to stop growing.

There are no status quo friendly solutions.

If you want status quo and non-extreme politically correct under our current culture solutions, then we are doomed.

It's too late to save the planet. I agree with Richard Heinberg's book Powerdown.

In an interview he said that preserving the wilderness in the only possible way (by stopping population growth) is extremely unlikely and will not realistically happen.

[Hicksey]

None of the status quo environmental policies or actions will address the root problem of our culture of economic growth which equals population growth times consumption per capita growth.

It would take something extreme to prevent the earth from being exhausted.

For starters, the human population would have to stop growing.

There are no status quo friendly solutions.

If you want status quo and non-extreme politically correct under our current culture solutions, then we are doomed.

It's too late to save the planet. I agree with Richard Heinberg's book Powerdown.

In an interview he said that preserving the wilderness in the only possible way (by stopping population growth) is extremely unlikely and will not realistically happen.

I applaud your passion for the issue. Its admirable to say the least.

But, the fact remans that we still owe it to the earth, to each other and to future generations to do everything in our power to affect change toward that end, even if we cannot get there in our time. We have to start somewhere and to do that we need the support of the general public, and economy to supply the money needed to affect the change. The more extreme measures you suggest, while they may in fact work, will never get adopted because people have been free to do as they please with respect to the environment for too long. You're talking about taking away things believed to be core freedoms, like having a big family. People will revolt. If we're to enact truly environmentally responsible policies we need to encourage people to do the right thing with a currency they know and want -- money. Give families that have BOTH parents surgically sterilized after none, one or two children, free surgery, a trip to the front of the waiting list and a $25,000 bonus.

We have to start somewhere.

[quinton]

I notice that David Suzuki never proposes a solution to the problem of perpetual growth.

In his latest article he says:

"But one thing is for certain - we cannot continue on this relentless march for growth without eventually confronting the biological limits of the planet itself. The question is, will we have turned around enough by then? Will we learn to live within the planet's limits before we reach them?

In a society where growth is considered the goal in itself, rather than a means to an end"

http://www.davidsuzuki.org/about_us/Dr_Dav...kly03310601.asp

I know that the solution to saving the earth is extreme. I see why Dr. Suzuki does not propose any solutions because it would just backfire unless the public was more educated.

Sadly, the public does not presently recognize the problem. They are in denial and their mentality is "business as usual", all while ignoring the environmental pitfalls of economic (population and consumption) growth.

Until the majority of the public is aware of the problem, the solution is less important than the acknowledgement of the problem.

[Hicksey]

I notice that David Suzuki never proposes a solution to the problem of perpetual growth.

In his latest article he says:

"But one thing is for certain - we cannot continue on this relentless march for growth without eventually confronting the biological limits of the planet itself. The question is, will we have turned around enough by then? Will we learn to live within the planet's limits before we reach them?

In a society where growth is considered the goal in itself, rather than a means to an end"

http://www.davidsuzuki.org/about_us/Dr_Dav...kly03310601.asp

I know that the solution to saving the earth is extreme. I see why Dr. Suzuki does not propose any solutions because it would just backfire unless the public was more educated.

Sadly, the public does not presently recognize the problem. They are in denial and their mentality is "business as usual", all while ignoring the environmental pitfalls of economic (population and consumption) growth.

Until the majority of the public is aware of the problem, the solution is less important than the acknowledgement of the problem.

Great post.

I think that what we have to do is just what we can in our lifetime and impress the need for further reform to our children. I DO think the public is aware of the problem itself, but not the severity of it. What we need to do is sell it piece by piece so that by the time people realize all they've given to get to the desired end, they'll already be seeing results and be less likely to revolt. I think that Canadians as a bunch are pretty environmentally friendly people. If you can sell each part of it seperately I think they'll bite. Its going to take time and we'll have to educate people, but over a generation or three it can probably be done.

[scribblet]

Overpopulation is the most serious problem for earth and the root cause of the environmental problems and shortages etc. and is escalating yearly. If we continue breeding at present rate, the population will double to over 11 billion by 2035.

I don't see abortion as the solution, there are many other choices, as in birth control and education, and that is a big problem for most developing countries. I wonder at what point and what kind of a crisis will spur people to action on this.

[quinton]

All we can do is educate all of our friends and family.

We need to get people thinking about this.

Until the majority of the public is focussed on this issue, nothing really pro-active or good can result.

[Army Guy]

quinton:

I don't think Canada is ready for any of your suggestions, not now or the foreseeable future. But i do agree with you that something could be done. I think Hicksey hit the nail on the head, a little bit at a time is the key to sucess.

I think we should start by educating our children, and for that matter the adults.Via the schools and media.

The govenment could standardize our waste mangement practices, like many european countrys and some Ontario cities have. By forcing citizens to sort thier garbage for recyling plants. IE, glass, plastics, metal in one container, paper products in another and wet garbage (food,soiled paper products, lawn and garden waste) into another. And reusing these recyled products, i know Ontario Government has produced the containers needed for this out of reclyed material it has collected and are provided for free to each household. Although not self suffient they do reclaim a lions share of taxes required to operate, collect and dispose of our waste. Plus reduce loads on land fill sites, and save on resources by reclyling them.

Below are some web sites about Ontario efforts, i'm sure ontario is not the only province with some sort of enviromental plan.

My Webpage

Below are sites from germany considered a world leader in reclying, but keep in mind they have been at this for some time now. but it gives us an idea on what can be achieved. and perhaps slow down our useage of our resources.

My Webpage

My Webpage

My Webpage

With all the real wasteage of our tax dollars i'm sure we can scrap together a couple million or more for R+D on creating new ways to handle our sewage problems by it from better treatment methods or better disposal methods...pumping our sewage into our waterways is not the answer, have you seen the halifax harbour it not only reeks but when the tide is in so is raw sewage...Islands of shit paper with large chunks of human crap on them is not treated waste to me....

I'm sure with tech of the day we should be able to come up with a cost efficient method of getting rid of our sewage with out providing so much impact on our waterways which again reflects on our natural resources.

[Spike22]

Yes I agree that people are too uneducated to understand that these policies are for their own good.

Therefore I believe mankind is doomed.

In India for example, the government almost implemented mass sterilization for population control, and then they got voted out. So it backfired and the population exploded quickly when the new government took over. Obviously this population explosion was to the detriment of Indian wildlife habitat. The new government won't even broach the topic of population control.

The earth will slowly lose all of what makes it livable for human beings including resources, biodiversity, etc.

What is left will be reserved for the elite.

Quinton you old doom and gloom monger ya. You will be a fossil when the planet collapses and so will your offspring so don't worry. Buy the biggest gas sucking vehicle you can, reproduce like mad and have a wonderful life, it is too short to be so gloomy. Now excuse me the missus is in heat - time to make babies!

[Charles Anthony]

I agree and I don't see how anyone can crit. anyone else for their life style unless they are living without all the comforts of home, including computers, cars, central heat etc. etc. The real problem is overpopulation but no one wants to tackle that issue.

So.... what do YOU recommend for dealing with over-population?