maldon_road Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 The interesting thing is that in my immediate neighbourhood, Green lawn signs are popping up where they haven't before. This could be quite interesting. Greens have religion. That's why they advertise the brand. Won't translate into any seats though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shavluk Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 Not every one is smart enough to vote GREEN We know that and expect that You ,well it isnt your fault as only some people have the vision required to clean up the mess in this country and the world. But I do think Canada is racist and greedy enough to still elect some conservatives , you will still have a voice, relax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted October 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 Maybe some one can translate that last one and I will just take it as an apology and an admission that you were wrong.I still apreciate you starting this thread just to try to help me , thanks. In order to give you a chance, I would have to start a bazillion threads. Still, I bet you get the exotic dancer and mac daddy vote..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted October 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 You're still basically saying the opinions of a large segment of the population is not significant. That shouldn't happen in a democracy. Your definition of fringe is based more on wishful thinking. A party that gets a few thousand votes is fringe, a party that gets 600,000 is at the last a minor party. No I am saying the opinions of a small segment of society shouldn't be allowed to thwart the opinions of the majority anymore than they already do. Democracy isn't about caterering to every voice no matter how insignificant, but giving the greatest voice leadership over the whole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higgly Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 (edited) This has to be abit of a non-sequitor, but my favourite campaign poster has to be the one for the Green Party up in the Bruce Peninsula. The candidate's name is Jolley, and the signs say... Vote Jolley Green Heh heh. I'll bet he gets a lot of votes just because it's so easy to remember. OK, it's provincial, but I just had to put it up. Edited October 1, 2007 by Higgly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kengs333 Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 No I am saying the opinions of a small segment of society shouldn't be allowed to thwart the opinions of the majority anymore than they already do. Democracy isn't about caterering to every voice no matter how insignificant, but giving the greatest voice leadership over the whole. Okay, did you even think before you typed that? The 600,000 people who vote for the Green Party are not exactly a "small segment of society". It's a significant number, no matter how one looks at it. I'm not sure how giving the party fair representation would "thwart the opinions of the majority" since it would only have in a PR system about 12 seats. The party would, moreover, be part of the majority since 65% of Canadians didn't vote for the Conservatives. Let's not forget that the FPTP system usually allows for the minority to rule the majority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted October 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 Okay, did you even think before you typed that? The 600,000 people who vote for the Green Party are not exactly a "small segment of society". It's a significant number, no matter how one looks at it. Less than 6% of all voters. There was a fellow who ran in the Annex. His campaign pitch was There are 301 seats in Ottawa 1 in 10 Canadians has a mental illness Vote Gupta. less than 6 out of a 100 voters will vote Green....They can be safely ignored untill they mature and start voting for grown up parties...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted October 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 Okay, did you even think before you typed that? I'm not sure how giving the party fair representation would "thwart the opinions of the majority" since it would only have in a PR system about 12 seats. Then not only are you unfamiliar with our current system, other PR systems are new to you too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kengs333 Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 Honestly, trying to have a reasoned debate with you is a waste of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted October 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 Honestly, trying to have a reasoned debate with you is a waste of time. It would help if you knew what you're are tralking about, to wit: I'm not sure how giving the party fair representation would "thwart the opinions of the majority" since it would only have in a PR system about 12 seats. 1) Obviously you are unfamiliar with the scores of nations that use PR and whose minority governments are forever entering into alliances with fringe parties giving those fringe parties more political leverage than their support base should allow. 2) If you actually believe that the PR systen bdoesn't give fringe parties power, what's the point of forwarding it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kengs333 Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 It would help if you knew what you're are tralking about, to wit:1) Obviously you are unfamiliar with the scores of nations that use PR and whose minority governments are forever entering into alliances with fringe parties giving those fringe parties more political leverage than their support base should allow. 2) If you actually believe that the PR systen bdoesn't give fringe parties power, what's the point of forwarding it? The real problem here is your classification of things to be what they are not, namely using the term "fringe party" to refer to minor parties. In Germany, for instance, which uses the MMP system that is proposed for Ontario, there are I believe only five parties represented at the federal level. Coalitions are formed, but in the case of the coalitions between the SPD and the Greens it was usually the Greens that found themselves having to conform. I think it's fair to say that coalition governments in Germany have worked quite well, although I suppose one of the reasons is that many Germans are much more politically aware than are Canadians. Canadians have been conditioned for too long the the system we have to be apathetic. Our role has simply been reduced to voting every once and awhile in order to elect the same old kind of self-serving politician. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted October 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 The real problem here is your classification of things to be what they are not, namely using the term "fringe party" to refer to minor parties. the 5% support makes them fringe...away from the mainstream. Now in Israel, where a PR systn is used..... Kadima 29 Labor 19 Likud 12 Shas 12 Yisrael Beytenu 11 National Union - Mafdal 9 Gil - Gimla'ey Yisrael 7 Torah and Shabbat Judaism 6 Meretz 5 United Arab List (Raam) 4 Democratic Front for Peace and Equality (Hadash) 3 National Democratic Alliance (Balad) 3 Religious Parties get to impose their agenda on the mainly secular nation becasue without their support no government can stand...........And that can easily happen here. In Germany, for instance, which uses the MMP system that is proposed for Ontario, there are I believe only five parties represented at the federal level There are 6. By Party.... SPD - 222 Greens - 51 left - 54 FDP 61 CDU- 180 CSU-46 Christian Social union - 44 Social Democrats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Blue Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 (edited) So the only two options are PR and FPTP? I think that we should move towards a run off system. So in this system in order to win a seat one must win 50%+1. During the first round of voting people can vote for whichever candidate they believe would represent them best. If no candidates win 50%+1 then the top two candidates will move to the second round of voting. I think this system would work best, and it would allow the constituents of the riding to elect people they truly want to represent them. Edited October 2, 2007 by Canadian Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennie Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 (edited) I think it's fair to say that coalition governments in Germany have worked quite well, although I suppose one of the reasons is that many Germans are much more politically aware than are Canadians. Canadians have been conditioned for too long the the system we have to be apathetic. Our role has simply been reduced to voting every once and awhile in order to elect the same old kind of self-serving politician. I totally agree, kgs, and I think a new approach will alert people to pay attention, get involved in thinking again. The possibility of expanding the number of viewpoints in the legislature may appeal to some disenchanted voters ... the 40% WHO DON'T VOTE would be nice, many of whom are the youth who feel the system is too rigid and static to interest them may be attracted to the possibility of youth voices. I would love to see a youth party! Edited October 2, 2007 by jennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shavluk Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 The youth by and large are GREEN check it out and watch. I think it will be an interesting and exciting election. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kengs333 Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 the 5% support makes them fringe...away from the mainstream. I think given our population, a party that receives about 600,000 can hardly be considered "fringe". If that many Canadians suddenly died, it would be a catastrophe. That many Canadians not being represented in Parlaiment is, however, quite acceptable? Now in Israel, where a PR systn is used.....Religious Parties get to impose their agenda on the mainly secular nation becasue without their support no government can stand...........And that can easily happen here. Politics in Israel is irrelevant in this discussion. There are 6.By Party.... SPD - 222 Greens - 51 left - 54 FDP 61 CDU- 180 CSU-46 Christian Social union - 44 Social Democrats You've mucked things up here a bit. While there are technically SIX parties in the Bundestag, the CDU and CSU actually form one party. It's one of those little quirks about German politics that Bavaria still maintains a certain degree of autonomy. The CSU is essentially the Bavarian wing of the CDU. So that results in FIVE parties" CDU/CSU, SPD, FDP, PDS and Die Gruenen. You'll notice that there are no really small parties with one or two seats; all of the parties have a minimum of 8%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kengs333 Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 The youth by and large are GREEN check it out and watch.I think it will be an interesting and exciting election. Don't they have mock elections federally and don't the youth actually tend to go Liberal, NDP, Green in that order? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Blue Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 Depends, I figure that a youth in Alberta is more likely to go Conservative. Keep in mind alot of people get alot of their political views from parents, and will often vote however their parents vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kengs333 Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 I totally agree, kgs, and I think a new approach will alert people to pay attention, get involved in thinking again. The possibility of expanding the number of viewpoints in the legislature may appeal to some disenchanted voters ... the 40% WHO DON'T VOTE would be nice, many of whom are the youth who feel the system is too rigid and static to interest them may be attracted to the possibility of youth voices. I would love to see a youth party! Universities in Canada are simply not the hotbed of political aggitation as they are in Europe, which always makes me have to laugh when people complain about Canadian universities being a haven for Leftist radicals. I think the only exception may be radical feminists. Canadian universities are concerned about their image because anything that smacks of political aggitation lessens the chance of getting corporate support. In Europe, given it's troubled past, students are much more aware of their rights and are more apt to voice their discontent with politics, how a university is run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shavluk Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 Don't they have mock elections federally and don't the youth actually tend to go Liberal, NDP, Green in that order? well here in BC its GREEN , liberal ,ndp , conservative My 17 year old says all the kids in his high school are Greens (he holds membership) but they i think have been on my side since i ran twice for the marijuana party (been at this for 16 years) and i almost lost all of them when i did come in second for president of the federal ndp last September in Quebec city so i think i am back on the right track !!! thanks though. What none of you !!! happened to notice everyone of them (harper , dion, duceppe ,layton) and i mean everyone of them ,, IN GREEN TIES !!! CHECK IT OUT Go GREEN because You are Smart !!! and tired of the same old, same old !! Now its either the politicians know something or the tax payers do ,,who do you suppose it is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkman Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 Just wondering, is the Green Party budget so small that they're reduced to propaganda on forums? They've sunk pretty low, I guess most lefties figure NDP or nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shavluk Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 Just wondering, is the Green Party budget so small that they're reduced to propaganda on forums? They've sunk pretty low, I guess most lefties figure NDP or nothing. Yes my budget is small,,wanna help out? Again you get to vote now you have a reason , maybe just move to newton north delta and vote against me , i don t care. Its a public service message and i have been writing on forums under different names even for years. I see no reason to stop now just because you cant think of a way to argue with me. A lot of others state their political choice and we see no complaints from you. Thanks for your comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkman Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 You misunderstand me, I am not complaining, nor am I debating. Just making an observation that you don't like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted October 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 Politics in Israel is irrelevant in this discussion. But politics in Germany are? Cheque Please! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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