"Shut up and fit in"

[jefferiah]

What's Canadianism?

Debatable I suppose. Anyhow, the point is there is a fine line between saying people should act Canadian and that they should conform to our laws rather than complain about them when they come. No one is saying immigrants should be forced to like hockey and give up a Hindu god. All we are saying is that they should not complain about every law that isnt on par with their opinion. A little girl gets in trouble because of the paring knife she brought in her lunch kit for her apple, and yet a court tells a Quebec school that they were out of line for forbidding Sikh kids to wear daggers to school. God forbid someone in the school admin would have thought it was wrong to allow people to carry knives on their belts. Racist pigs!!!

[M.Dancer]

God forbid someone in the school admin would have thought it was wrong to allow people to carry knives on their belts. Racist pigs!!!

Amazingly, when I'm dressed to the nines, I carry a razor sharp knife in my sock. No one ever says boo.

Maybe they're scared.....

[JB Globe]

Canada is for Canadians, there is nothing wrong with saying that. There is nothing wrong with our culture.

What is Canadian culture?

We seem to be changing everything to accomidate people.

I live in Toronto and I don't see any evidence of this. I see evidence of changes to make society more INCLUSIVE, but I don't see society fundamentally changing that much. I think the real problem stems from many white Canadians who are used to being at the centre of everything, are now sharing the same stage with people they don't know much about and are nervous about as a result.

There is no need for the RCMP to wear turbins, baseball caps, spiked kiaser helmets or any other head dress other than their stetsons. Fit in, or do not apply. It is NOT wrong, every other country does it. People have been immigrating for thousands of years, fit into your new home.

I really don't understand what the big deal about this is - there are a few Toronto Police officers who wear turbans (which match the uniform colours and have the same steel badge on the hats) and last time I checked, the sky hasn't fallen in.

No one's been able to tell me the great damage that has been done to Canadian society because of this. Frankly it looks like some people are making mountains out of molehills on this one. They wear a different hat, and they're good police officers - oh the humanity!

[jefferiah]

What is Canadian culture?

I live in Toronto and I don't see any evidence of this. I see evidence of changes to make society more INCLUSIVE, but I don't see society fundamentally changing that much. I think the real problem stems from many white Canadians who are used to being at the centre of everything, are now sharing the same stage with people they don't know much about and are nervous about as a result.

I really don't understand what the big deal about this is - there are a few Toronto Police officers who wear turbans (which match the uniform colours and have the same steel badge on the hats) and last time I checked, the sky hasn't fallen in.

No one's been able to tell me the great damage that has been done to Canadian society because of this. Frankly it looks like some people are making mountains out of molehills on this one. They wear a different hat, and they're good police officers - oh the humanity!

You may be right about it not causing the sky to fall. But it shows something you may not understand about leadership. When you bend in one aspect for one person, you have to bend for another person. You keep asking why should it be so hard for us to change for them. Conversely why should the onus to change our ways be on us, whether it is hard or easy. Why should it not be on the one who has decided he wants to join our society. If you go to a certain person's house and they have a rule about wearing a ball cap inside that is their business. It is their house. I could argue about the meaningless of a ball cap and its relevancy to respect all I like, but it is still their house. Respect dictates then when I enter their house I ought to take my cap off, even though I do not have a similar rule in my own house. If I am lucky enough to be allowed to enter a wonderful house like Canada or America, why should I cry discrimination over every rule I do not like or ask them to change laws which govern the majority to suit myself.

I am not saying we should be mean to immigrants. But we should not be push-overs either. Everytime you become a push-over about things like this (as meaningless as they sound to you) you set the precedent that people do not have to respect you and rather than be grateful toward you or society as a whole, they feel that that ought to make demands on you or society as a whole.

Edited September 26, 2007 by jefferiah

[M.Dancer]

If you go to a certain person's house and they have a rule about wearing a ball cap inside that is their business. It is their house. I could argue about the meaningless of a ball cap and its relevancy to respect all I like, but it is still their house. Respect dictates then when I enter their house I ought to take my cap off, even though I do not have a similar rule in my own house.

Yes but Canada is not a house. I could argue that if a certain Jew were to go to a certain person's house, and that person had a rule about yamakas, the Jew might choose not come in.

Is that the kind of Canada we want?

[Higgly]

You may be right about it not causing the sky to fall. But it shows something you may not understand about leadership. When you bend in one aspect for one person, you have to bend for another person. You keep asking why should it be so hard for us to change for them. Conversely why should the onus to change our ways be on us, whether it is hard or easy. Why should it not be on the one who has decided he wants to join our society. If you go to a certain person's house and they have a rule about wearing a ball cap inside that is their business. It is their house. I could argue about the meaningless of a ball cap and its relevancy to respect all I like, but it is still their house. Respect dictates then when I enter their house I ought to take my cap off, even though I do not have a similar rule in my own house. If I am lucky enough to be allowed to enter a wonderful house like Canada or America, why should I cry discrimination over every rule I do not like or ask them to change laws which govern the majority to suit myself.

Well this is what might happen if you didn't have a core set of values so you put too much empasis on cosmetics. As far as your ball cap example goes, if you had helped pay for the house, then you would have a say in the ballcap business, would you not?

[Shakeyhands]

What is Canadian culture?

I live in Toronto and I don't see any evidence of this. I see evidence of changes to make society more INCLUSIVE, but I don't see society fundamentally changing that much. I think the real problem stems from many white Canadians who are used to being at the centre of everything, are now sharing the same stage with people they don't know much about and are nervous about as a result.

I really don't understand what the big deal about this is - there are a few Toronto Police officers who wear turbans (which match the uniform colours and have the same steel badge on the hats) and last time I checked, the sky hasn't fallen in.

No one's been able to tell me the great damage that has been done to Canadian society because of this. Frankly it looks like some people are making mountains out of molehills on this one. They wear a different hat, and they're good police officers - oh the humanity!

Excellent point and post.

[mikedavid00]

He is simply echoing a growing movement in this country.

Like it or not it is happening.

It will continue.

Borg

Yes it will.

We are sick of it.

Sikh's have demanded that the CBC call them 'Sick' becuase that's how it's pronounced in *THEIR* language.

The CBC said 'Ok, but you know people will think we are talking about sick people. Not Sikh (:seek).

So now the Sikh's are trying to change the English language word that WE use, that we had first.

How about the Sikh's learn to pronounce the 995,116 to our liking and then we can call if even.

(man i thought of a great jokes when making this post.. but don't want Jennie contating the Human Rights Tax Hole on me).

[guyser]

You may be right about it not causing the sky to fall. But it shows something you may not understand about leadership. When you bend in one aspect for one person, you have to bend for another person. You keep asking why should it be so hard for us to change for them. Conversely why should the onus to change our ways be on us, whether it is hard or easy. Why should it not be on the one who has decided he wants to join our society. If you go to a certain person's house and they have a rule about wearing a ball cap inside that is their business. It is their house. I could argue about the meaningless of a ball cap and its relevancy to respect all I like, but it is still their house. Respect dictates then when I enter their house I ought to take my cap off, even though I do not have a similar rule in my own house. If I am lucky enough to be allowed to enter a wonderful house like Canada or America, why should I cry discrimination over every rule I do not like or ask them to change laws which govern the majority to suit myself.

Ok, next time a Sikh cop comes to your house, yell out the window that he has to take his "hat" off before entering the house.

A pushover is nothing near the sort. We are not pushovers, they are not changing laws, we are advancing and growing as a nation to facilitate the best country we can.

If we were puchovers the laws of canada would be ignored all the time and we know that is not the case.

There is more myopia here than anyone wants to admit. Cover it in honey , wahtever you want , but damn some people are so thinly vieled as to their true intentions it is sickening.

[mikedavid00]

If you do then your living in the right PLACE 'not a COUNTRY' as Canada defies the dictionary primary definition of a 'COUNTRY', 1. (a) The territory of a nation with its own government; a State. ( a territory possesing its own language, people, culture etc." Definiton taken from the Concise Oxford Dictionary.

That's exactly why there is technically no such thing as multi-cultralism.

There are only groups of people who practice cultures from OTHER countries.

These people segregate to their own and also tend to practice racsim and continually try to establish a power base through politics and public funding.

That does not give Canada a culture. All that does is create segregation and racsism.

And ultimately civil war or seperation.

Canadians do not live in peace. That is a myth.

[mikedavid00]

By the way, I just had leftovers for lunch, spanish rice and lean steak with Tandori chicken....Now I'm parched so I'm off to Rabba to get a Brio Chinotto....

Wow you are so cool. You are multicultural now.

After all, multiculturalism is tandoori chicken and spanish rice.

Don't you find that statement to be... what's the proper word... I can't find the word.. How do you say..

like you think you are superior to immigrants to you bottle up their culture in a peice of food like they are just little people in Canada..

Self rightious?

I dunno.. but you get the idea.

[Higgly]

Yes it will.

We are sick of it.

Sikh's have demanded that the CBC call them 'Sick' becuase that's how it's pronounced in *THEIR* language.

The CBC said 'Ok, but you know people will think we are talking about sick people. Not Sikh (:seek).

So now the Sikh's are trying to change the English language word that WE use, that we had first.

How about the Sikh's learn to pronounce the 995,116 to our liking and then we can call if even.

(man i thought of a great jokes when making this post.. but don't want Jennie contating the Human Rights Tax Hole on me).

Good grief. How can you obsess over such a minor point? I mean this really is splitting hairs. There are all kinds of groups in our society who try to change things to make society more hospitable to themselves and their culture. Surely you don't think that society should just run on rails never changing until the end of time?

[mikedavid00]

Apparently this has been big on Facebook with many advocating he lose his Olympic job and threatening violence against him. If that is their concept of tolerance and free speech, Allen has a good point.

There are many sikh activist groups on Facebook with the underlying message of 'we're being treated unfair, give us x..'

The Sikh's actually seem to have a lot of time on their hands.

(and what's funny.. two of my best friends are sikh and I have ex gf's who are sikh... i used to have a lot of sikhs around me on a daily basis when I was in Ottawa. Since coming to Toronto i've lost touch with all my friends becuase i'm too busy working and such.).

[mikedavid00]

Sure do. So do you , but you wont admit it.

The Italians, who built plenty in this land and introduced lots of good food and festivals to this country.

The Ukranians have made a great contribution to this land. Go yell your rhetoric in rural Manitoba. When your done, I will book you an appt with a dentist.

Guyers you know very well that this discussion is within the context of modern immigration which is mostly comprised of stoneage cultures and the third world becuase people from western europe no longer choose to come to Canada. (although the still go to the US to work regularely).

[guyser]

(and what's funny.. two of my best friends are sikh and I have ex gf's who are sikh... i used to have a lot of sikhs around me on a daily basis when I was in Ottawa. Since coming to Toronto i've lost touch with all my friends becuase i'm too busy working and such.).

They are NOT your friends trust me. If you were ever to be honest with them they would see that you are not a friend but a hypocrite , a racist one at that, and you strive to deny them any rights , and in fact you wish to deny them the rights you have.

But thats okay isnt it, since you dont feel they are citizens nor subject to the same laws as you.

Have them for dinner, tell them about your efforts to marginalize them, tell them how they are ruining Canada, tell them they are not busy and in fact tell them that "The Sikh's actually seem to have a lot of time on their hands", tell them they are parasitic welfare cheats , tell them they use too many services and dont forget to tell them to stay the F out of any hospitals.

And when you do tell , wait for 5 minutes.

You can now enjoy the creme brulee all to yourself. All the easier to eat alone and without the teeth you just lost.

Skip the coffee , damn Arabs introduced that to the world. You are ruining Canadian culture if you dont.

Edited September 26, 2007 by guyser

[Leafless]

What's Canadianism?

Canadianism is adhering to our 'White English speaking Christian culture', our social beliefs, our social and religious traditions and our political culture that is before it was destroyed by the Liberals.

This of course includes not having any other foreign culture or group interfere with the inner workings of Canadianism.

[guyser]

Guyers you know very well that this discussion is within the context of modern immigration which is mostly comprised of stoneage cultures and the third world becuase people from western europe no longer choose to come to Canada. (although the still go to the US to work regularely).

No I dont mikeD.

Thats just you attempting to spin it into something resembling thought and respectablility. Hey but good try !

[mikedavid00]

The turbans on mounties is an excellent point. The mountie uniform is the mountie uniform. That should be the way it is. There is no law against wearing a turban, but when you work for a job that requires a certain uniform you should not expect that organization to change its rules on your behalf.

Exactly. If you goto a cast for an acting role requiring that you are pregnant, and you are not pregnant, then they can discriminate against you and you do not get the role. You just wont be able to do play the part.

If you wear head gear, then there are simple things that you will not be able to do like go swimming, drive a motorcycle (the latest issue they are having) or wear a headset in a call center (i've seen that one first hand where an old friend of mine said 'why don't they give us bigger headests'). Tough luck, you don't like it, then DON'T COME HERE.

Make no mistake, they would still come here, they just wouldn't wine and cry about it. They would say 'I can't wear a helmet so I can't get a motorcycles license'. If India accomodates that (which they do), then they can stay in India and ride their motorcycles around all day long.

It's silly that these people want some sort of action taken against this man because he expects that our society should expect people to conform to it a little rather than try to change our laws to suit themselves.

That's the thing. The kid from the student assosiation says that they have the right to change our laws and that what democracy and freedom is about, but then our local radio show host says "But wait a minute, aren't you trying to supress his freedoms of speach and censor him?" Isn't that a double standard?

God we've got to overhaul in immigration. I'm willing to take the hit in my property value. I'll do anything. Lets just move to work permits now.

[guyser]

Canadianism is adhering to our 'White English speaking Christian culture', our social beliefs, our social and religious traditions and our political culture that is before it was destroyed by the Liberals.

This of course includes not having any other foreign culture or group interfere with the inner workings of Canadianism.

Ha , what a lark that is.You answer what is culture by saying it is white culture.

Kind of like asking why is the sky blue? Oh thats easy son, because it is blue . Oh...ok....thanks. A+ at school huh?

Now answer the question. What is CDN culture? Not who defines it .

[mikedavid00]

are Gucci suits or Habs jerseys (yeeck) part and parcel of an organized religion?

You can be a Sikh if you don't wear a turban. Only 50% of Sikhs even in India wear a turbin.

If you wear a turbin, then you can't be a mountie and then don't come to Canada. How about that.

The French kids are all doing fine now that they had to remove their turbins and hijabs.

[mikedavid00]

Religion should get no more consideration than fashion in a secular society.

Wow that was a great post actually.

Look what I'm reading from TimesofIndia:

"There are deep rooted problems within the Sikh community here in Vancouver. They are always on the newspaper not for their actions as model citizens but for murder, sham marriages, drug related violence (over 100 indo-canadians were murdered in the streets of Vancouver in the last 10 years), illegal immigration, wife beating (more than 4 Punjabi women were found murdered allegdly by their husbands here in Vancouver in the last 6 months alone) etc. Because around 75% of Indians here in Vancouver are of Sikh origin they are giving a bad reputation to all Indians. This is opposed to what I have experienced while working in the U.S where Indians are the model citizens like other Asians (Chinese, Koreans etc).

26 Jul, 2007 l 2330 hrs IST

Name:Raj

Location:Vancouver

"

Why is he saying this about the US? Because they have a functioning immigration policy and people are only there to work and then leave.

What we have in Canada are a bunch of Sikh's sitting around and collecting cheques all day. The women aren't working. And India's problems are coming here.

I work and pay taxes and certainly don't support people entering Canada that are not here to work and into killing their wives because their only 'women' and not treated as humans.

It's sickening. Canada has GOT to get an immigration policy now. You don't work, you don't come. No your gradmother can't come either.

"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"

[jennie]

Reading this thread, I think I have had an 'AHA!' experience. Let me see if I can say this right:

Since women and minorities 'got liberated', some white men have felt discriminated against because they perceive that they are getting a smaller slice of the pie than previous generations of white men. Some seem to respond by feeling they have to defend to the death that which is white male 'privilege' (i.e., their traditional 'bigger slice'). Failing that, blame it on someone else - "immigrants" who are non-white, non-Christian, non-assimilative; Indigenous Peoples seeking justice and environmental control over the pie, I don't know about women as we haven't had that conversation.

I can see that, how it all seems like threats ... to some others. I can see that now. Must sometimes be hard to explain the challenges to the older generations who retired before the changes hit them. There have been big changes. No question. The 'good' nurses and secretaries of previous generations are doctors and managers now. The taxi drivers are often from very different cultures and have unused degrees.

So ... is it harder for a white man to 'make his way' than it was in previous generations?

If so, and since we cannot go backwards from here, what are the solutions?

[Posit]

Reading this thread, I think I have had an 'AHA!' experience. Let me see if I can say this right:

Since women and minorities 'got liberated', some white men have felt discriminated against because they perceive that they are getting a smaller slice of the pie than previous generations of white men. Some seem to respond by feeling they have to defend to the death that which is white male 'privilege' (i.e., their traditional 'bigger slice'). Failing that, blame it on someone else - "immigrants" who are non-white, non-Christian, non-assimilative; Indigenous Peoples seeking justice and environmental control over the pie, I don't know about women as we haven't had that conversation.

I can see that, how it all seems like threats ... to some others. I can see that now. Must sometimes be hard to explain the challenges to the older generations who retired before the changes hit them. There have been big changes. No question. The 'good' nurses and secretaries of previous generations are doctors and managers now. The taxi drivers are often from very different cultures and have unused degrees.

So ... is it harder for a white man to 'make his way' than it was in previous generations?

If so, and since we cannot go backwards from here, what are the solutions?

Welcome to reality. It is a long uphill battle against the cadre.

[Argus]

I support a country that is made up of all kinds of people, I certainly don't profess to be better than others that come here.

Why not? I am. Maybe you're simply not as good as I am, though.

we're ALL immigrants.

A yes, that tired, hoary old cliche. Every time a discussion about immigration comes up along comes the sheep to baaahhh! as they've been taught, right on cue. No thinking required.

[gc1765]

A yes, that tired, hoary old cliche. Every time a discussion about immigration comes up along comes the sheep to baaahhh! as they've been taught, right on cue. No thinking required.

That's probably because every time it is brought up, no one can come up with a rebuttal. Instead they just avoid having to come up with an actual argument against it by talking about how cliche it is.