The Politics of Victimization

[jbg]

On this one I must respectfully agree with you and everyone knows my faith. One can not illicit understanding for their feelings by negating the feeling of others.

I appreciate the respect, and don't expect everyone to agree with me. In fact, my views are going to be a bit different on just about every issue. I do not post here in order to join a mutual admiration society. Rabble does that far better.

In fact the point of the post was to play the victim card.

Then you missed the point. My point is that we received a small amount of just help after WW II and moved on. Israel has offered its hand to help in Africa, which was accepted until the leaders appreciated Arab cash (i.e. bankable money) more. My pint is that some groups never seem to make progress, and seem to wallow in self-pity, poor governance and all too often violence. Why are Palestinian families having eight children, for example?

As a Jew I do not feel for a second the hippocracies extended towards me and my people in any way shape or form can be effectively criticized by trying to point the finger at others who suffer.

My finger is pointed firmly at the leaders, not the people who suffer. You know that I have extended myself to help real individual poor people. I expected better from you, who knows the truth.

I just don't buy the thread JBG.

That's fine. See above.

Judaism teaches us to heal the world (tikam olum) by reaching out and creating positive actions without expecting anything in return and without expecting any one to appreciate us. Jewish religion does not teach us to become woe is me I am being picked on its not fair weaklings. It teaches us to transcend such self-indulgent behaviour and push ourselves. Your mistake JBG is expecting what you say to bring sympathy. All it does is incite anti-semitic feelings.

At some point we need something in return. We are too small in terms of the world's population to carry the weight of the world on our shoulders.

You want people to admire you for being Jewish? don't use such a sacred time of reflection where we are supposed to lament our limitations, to point out what you think are the limitations of others.

Their leaders should be scorned. The people who suffer under the leaders should be helped.

If people scapegoat us so? Are you not strong enough to stand and debate with decency?

I almost always debate with decency, as do you.

A Jew does not point out another's weakness to gloat, only to share a common foible and laugh.

That's common but not universal. Sometimes it is necessary for us to make constructive criticism of others.

Time for you to go back to Isaac Bolshevic Singer, Eli Wiesel, Bernard Malamud, Ann Frank, to name but a few and ask yourself what has turned you into the very gentile you ridicule.

Please don't name call. Isaac's middle name is not accurate and I was called to task for mis-spelling the name of your fifth to last PM.

And believe me JBG I criticize myself for the exact same shortcomings as hard as I do you.

That's good. But we should not expect perfection of ourselves before we make helpful, constructive criticisms of others. The Palestinians, FN's etc. do not benefit by being fed a line of liberal BS. The truth is what sets people free. I tell the truth. It hurts sometimes.

[ScottSA]

More to the point, he doesn't address the fact that some people, such as myself, who left-leaning posters repeatedly accuse of being a conservative, such as myself, actually work shoulder to shoulder with minorities, towards the common ends of the business. I suspect he's disgusted by the idea of a racial minority in a supervisory position.

This is completely uncalled for. I wish you'd stop trotting out the heroic "Jamaican" you "work shoulder to shoulder with" to show your bona fides with the kumbaya crowd. After about the tenth time, it wears thin. I have nevber ever suggested that I look down on "racial minorities"; nor that I think whites are better than anyone else.

[Rue]

I appreciate the respect, and don't expect everyone to agree with me."

My comments to you were only meant as a respectful debate no name calling although it always runs the risk of sounding likethat when we debate in writing and you can't hear the tone of my voice.

I really respectfully disagree with you, nothing else. The reference to those writers was not meant as an insult, honest -just a reference to writers whose concept of Jewish identity is more like mine-one where identity is formulate not with anger but with genuine sadness which I argue is the state anyone who is angry must get to to heal and feel positive.

Edited October 2, 2007 by Rue

[Rue]

The truth is what sets people free. I tell the truth. It hurts sometimes.

I believe truth is something each individual soul must decide and define and create for themselves. You say you tell the truth. Well no doubt you think what you state is truth but whether it is truth or not depends on how each individual cares to assimilate what you say and interpret it.

Could it people what you refer to as truth is in fact opinion?

Me-I haven't a clue what truth is. I mean I could give you my opinions on it depending on the context but nah I laugh at the idea I could be infallable and so would be in the position to claim what is absolute truth. (did I spell that right lol-me spell!)

You sort of sound like you are omnipotent with your above comments.

I guess growing up with two daughters, it taught me how imperfect I was. What can I say. They have a tendency to do that but of course only after they got their allowance.

[Canadian Blue]

This is completely uncalled for. I wish you'd stop trotting out the heroic "Jamaican" you "work shoulder to shoulder with" to show your bona fides with the kumbaya crowd. After about the tenth time, it wears thin. I have nevber ever suggested that I look down on "racial minorities"; nor that I think whites are better than anyone else.

So you just happen to dream of seeing large minority groups disappear from the west?

"Deporting all Muslims" is an unachievable dream, albeit a lovely thought

Edited October 2, 2007 by Canadian Blue

[Alexandra]

Er... they do. All the frickin' time, at least wrt Israel. I'm not simply talking abouty the (deserved) status as innocent victims of the Holocaust which led to the formation of Israel. The political discourse is rife with examples where Israel is portrayed as the victim in spite of the overwhelming superiority it enjoys over its enemies. Fer instance, everytime the hackneyed phrase "pushed into the sea" is used, chances are there's some serious wallowing going on.

Is there a less 'hackneyed' phrase than the Israelis being 'pushed into the sea' you would prefer, Black Dog?

There is an Imam from a Vancouver mosque who has phrases for not only Israelis but ALL of the 15 or so million Jews in the world you may find more palatable.

This Imam, being one of the similar, if not the very same, brown people as many of the jewish people (matter of fact there is a senior partner of a law firm in Vancouver who is frequently mistaken for an 'African' rather than a jewish person) has literally embarrassed but not shamed many of his muslim mosque members with his vicious tirades against --- those other semites. The Jews. He then calls for a Jihad against those other 'pale skinned' people which he refers to as Infidels, when being polite. Matter of fact this Imam is wallowing with great glee in the fact that in Canada and Vancouver in particular he is actually free to call for the death and beheading of those jews and Infidels. Freedom of speech and the Human Rights Commission, you know.

That other forum, Telus or whatever, you opined on about the Israelis and the jewish people so frequently suggested that you were not at all enamoured of that particular religion and short of actually referring to you as a bigot which seems to be the favorite epithet along with racist on this thread, let's just say. The old adage: those who live in glass houses ......

`

[Rue]

Blackdog I would suspect that what may come across to you as the wallowing of

Jews when they react to criticism might be something else-something as simple

as feeling existentially threatened. You underestimate the link between the Jewish psyche

and how it feels threatened by certain comments.

Serious Blackdog if people had your discipline so that when they were

criticizing Israel they make sure to differentiate between Israelis and Jews and

the policies as you do, and keep the criticism as you do (except for this one)

remarkably apersonal, they probably would not feel so anxious?

Think about that. Because I think you assume anxiety as self-pity. It may not be.

It may be in fact just anger at constantly seeing the line blurred. In that sense its

no different then Muslims on this forum who I do not blame for getting pissed when

the references to them constantly attacks them as a people and simply being Muslim.

I don't find their anxiety with this kind of stuff suprising and all I can do is tell

them they are not alone in that regard and that no one likes to be generalized

in a negative way simply because they belong or are indentified with a group.

Interesting but the other day I was in a heated discussion with a Russian over the current

goings on in the Ukeraine. He said the Ukrainians still wallow over the famine-his exact words.

Right. 20 million starved to death and he thinks remembering that and not trusting Russians to be

wallowing.

One person's anxiety may be another's wallowing.

Me-I had relatives die there in WW2 so I have bad memories of the Ukraine but I also

know what Stalin did to Ukrainians so for me I tend to keep it simple and say, there's reason for

people wallowing. Not sure though when we call it self-indulgent and when we call it

post trauma know what I mean?

[myata]

... Not sure though when we call it self-indulgent and when we call it

post trauma know what I mean?

While trying to not notice, or excuse by any means, the trauma we inflict on others?

It's either (incredibly) naive, or, more likely, the politics - of victimization - a la JBG.

[jbg]

While trying to not notice, or excuse by any means, the trauma we inflict on others?

It's either (incredibly) naive, or, more likely, the politics - of victimization - a la JBG.

I don't get reference. Sorry.