Ontario Leadership Debate

[equality]

Me too, I thought Tory and Hampton came out okay, and the moderator did a good job. I liked Tory's "it's a wonder he didn't go all the way back to Sir John A's time and blame something on him. "

I would call it a draw, I don't think anyone got a knockout punch in but Tory came off looking pretty good bolstered by Hampton's attacks which did put McGuinty on the defensive. I don't think McGuinty actually answered anything it was all doublespeak, especially about the health tax which hasn't improved anything.

I'd appreciate if you'd explain your definition of "doublespeak", and when you're done with that, could you tell me how there has been no improvements with health care compared to the former government.

[equality]

I just finished watching that City On Line show where-in they talked about the debate.

Funny, a couple of callers - including the host and her guest - had complained about the "negativity" of the debate.

YOO-HOOOOOO....that's what a debate is supposed to be. They were there to ARGUE!

Well, too bad that Dalton McGuinty got picked on about his broken promises...but hey, he should've known that his broken promises would be the albatross around his neck....so of course the two, especially Tory would be hammering on that! What do they think?

The guest at City On Line ridiculously said that the fact that McGuinty survived the debate made him victorious!

EH? Come again?

Just because McGuinty did not go sobbing and running out on the debate...that he stood there and took it ,(because what else could he have done)....that means he won? Get real!

McGuinty did not handle it well either! Right off the bath on the first round, he deflated and floundered.

Tory and Hampton smelled blood! The press smelled blood!

McGuinty knew very well that the two will get him for his broken promises. How could he not?

He and his strategists knew there's no escaping that.

He was hanging his head most of the time simply because he did not know what else to do or say!

He has no choice! Tory and Hampton were determined not to let him distract, dodge or slink his way out of it.

McGuinty's strategy was to make it look like he was "ganged up" by the other two. He was hoping and counting on the fact that viewers will be turned off by the NEGATIVE factor. That's why he admonished Tory twice, commenting on Tory's "negativity". It's even a rehearsed line. He spouted it exactly the same way.

Anyway that's what a real debate is all about! He had the floor to correct or oppose or argue back! The fact that he couldn't does not make Tory and Hampton into bullies or villains since both were just simply reiterating the facts.

As a voter I'd like to have all the information. If someone is lying, somebody ought to be able to point that out.

I don't watch debates just to see who smells sweet! I watch them to get some information as much as I can....expose some that's hidden.

A good pounding and heated debate usually delivers a different picture! You get closer to seeing what's real and what's bull!

Well McGuinty should be grateful that Tory did not go far as telling him to his face: You sir are a liar!

Strategist Jeff Norquay at MDuffy did not hesitate. In fact he said he wants to say just that. And he explained how McGuinty lied.

Tory and Hampton's assertions of "negativity" was just challenging McGuinty about the FACTS concerning his 4-year record!

Tory and Hampton tied with their performance....the two won. McGuinty was clearly the loser.

It's pathetically obvious that your need to back your party regardless of the obvious over-rides your ability to be objective. Step out of your mold, and think independently! I personally will vote for the party that will cause the least amount of chaos in the future. If you can, and your loved ones can, afford private health care go for it. Are you thinking about sending your children to faith based schools? Go for it. I thought I should point out that all teachers and health care workers pay taxes too. Sometimes they pay more taxes than other people--imagine that! They pay more taxes than other people because they are paid based on their amount of education they have. Imagine that--an educated health care or education system. Sometimes teachers and health care providers pay more in taxes than the many people who complain about them. Imagine that!!!!

[equality]

Why is it everyone forgets that his promise was to not raise taxes - unless he absolutely had to, in which case he would hold a referendum first. Why does no one remember the referendum he never bothered to hold? Even if one buys the corrupt accounting practices he used to exaggerate the deficit, and buys the lie that he had no idea there would be a deficit until after the election, he still completely flouted his promise that if it was absolutely necessary to raise taxes he would first hold a referendum?

I just thought you should know:

In the states it cost anywhere from 10,000 to 15,000 dolars to have a vaginal birth, and if you have a C-section it costs anywhere from 25,000 to 35,000. Is the health premium really that bad?

[equality]

I just thought you should know:

In the states it cost anywhere from 10,000 to 15,000 dolars to have a vaginal birth, and if you have a C-section it costs anywhere from 25,000 to 35,000. Is the health premium really that bad?

Tell me how you personally know there were corrupt accountants. I don't want to hear your opinion. I want proof that backs up your statements. Referendums cost money. If one had been held, would you not complain about the cost to hold one.

[Argus]

Ernie Eves stood in the legislature and under-stated the deficit by about $3 billion. Finding it at almost $6 billion required a whole new strategy.

Actually, it was GETTING it up to $6 billion which required the strategy. They had to come up with all kinds of shady accounting tricks to make it look bigger than it was, including absorbing the Ontario Hydro deficit and ignoring the extra money the federal government gave them in transfer payments. BTW, that extra money made up 100% of McGuinty's new spending on health care. The "health care premium" money went into general revenues.

Coal plants? Big deal. Ontarians - including big industrial Ontario - need to conserve. That is the only way we can get rid of the fossil fuel generators.

It was a stupid promise. There was never any chance of keeping it. He made it to make the squishy liberal environment types happy with him. I don't actually blame him for that. Taking advantage of fools is not something I really condemn. However, he has been in power now for some years and has done nothing to repair our damaged and backward electrical generating system. No new plants have been planned much less constructed. His government is talking about nuclear plants but that, even once they actually get a plan in place, will take at least a decade. We need new power NOW. They ought to be building some clean-coal generating plants.

And to reiterate - health care waits are just as long, especially in the emergency rooms. He changed some definitions, like he's only counting the waits for service AFTER someone has gotten in to see a specialist now, for example, and not counting the months waiting in line to see the specialist. And he's taken money from some areas to make some headway in others. That lets him cite improvements in waits for certain types of operations, while ignoring the increased waits for others.

All of that is incredibly dishonest and shows that rather than actually trying to solve problems all he and his government are doing is PR work.

Edited September 22, 2007 by Argus

[Argus]

I just thought you should know:

In the states it cost anywhere from 10,000 to 15,000 dolars to have a vaginal birth, and if you have a C-section it costs anywhere from 25,000 to 35,000. Is the health premium really that bad?

The point is the health care premium was not implemented in order to aid health care. The money went into general revenues. More importantly, if he had said in the previous election "Health care needs more money. I'm going to bring in a new special tax which will go directly to improving health care services" I'd have no trouble with the "health care premium" at all. I'm willing to pay more for better health care.

But he didn't do that. In fact, he actually signed a promise, on TV, with the head of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation standing next to him, and all the flourishes and bells and whistles, saying he would not increase taxes. And then he did.

Also, most of the extra money which has gone into health care has gone into increased salaries for health care workers so they don't make trouble for the government. That might make them happy but it does nothing to cut back wait times.

Edited September 22, 2007 by Argus

[Argus]

I'm not forgetting that. I'm also not forgetting that he had to because he was ambushed by a fake Jim Flaherty budget which showed a balanced budget when in fact the province was billions in the hole. Why would he know what the deficit was?

There had been a number of reports detailing why there would be a deficit and how big, including things like SARS and the blackout and mad cow. Ontario had a number of calamities that year. One of those reports was by the Liberals themselves, as Tory pointed out in the debate.

You are making him responsible for the budget when he was in opposition.

No, I'm making him responsible for his own promise. And btw, you are again ignoring the fact that he left himself an out - that if he needed to raise taxes he would have a referendum on it. He never bothered to.

No, instead what he worked on was exaggerating the deficit, and then adding to it by massive spending increases. Then he presented the numbers as a crisis and violated his promise - without ever resorting to a referendum.

[betsy]

McGuinty was the clear winner. Took the high road and stood up for himself.

Took the high road indeed. Liars are now viewed as taking the "high road" just for listening as the others are pointing out their lies.

He didn't stood up for himself. He simply stood there....and hung his head....unable to correct his opponents, or justify his broken promises. He couldn't defend himself.

Edited September 22, 2007 by betsy

[betsy]

It's pathetically obvious that your need to back your party regardless of the obvious over-rides your ability to be objective. Step out of your mold, and think independently! I personally will vote for the party that will cause the least amount of chaos in the future. If you can, and your loved ones can, afford private health care go for it. Are you thinking about sending your children to faith based schools? Go for it. I thought I should point out that all teachers and health care workers pay taxes too. Sometimes they pay more taxes than other people--imagine that! They pay more taxes than other people because they are paid based on their amount of education they have. Imagine that--an educated health care or education system. Sometimes teachers and health care providers pay more in taxes than the many people who complain about them. Imagine that!!!!

Well it's perfectly obvious, liberals will see what they want to see.

The truth is of no consequence. The truth is as hidden from liberal sheeps as Liberal leaders would hide it from their followers.

[betsy]

If McGuinty hadn't of been there, Tory would have had nothing to say.

Yeah. If McGuinty hadn't been there we have to assume that he hadn't been in power for 4 years.

What are you on about? What do you think this debate is all about?

You think Tory should've gone there and said, "Yeah Dalton, you did a fine job. Let's elect you again. And I'll see you again in 4 years." Duh.

Our system fortunately allows for open debate and allows us to change our government when the one in power has proved incompetent and corrupt. That's the point. These debates are simply a reflection of our system.

For Tory, to get up there and not point out the flaws in the current administration's governance would render the whole system pointless. We may as well have a single party system. Fortunately, we do have an alternative. And an intelligent electorate will understand that and change the current administration. Unfortunately, we don't have an intelligent electorate.