OPP finally act

[Posit]

One other thing... I think I'm much more well informed about about early Ontario history than you are.

If that is what you think....I just wonder how you ever got past "Ten Little Indians" in your studies.

How many archaeological digs have you been on in southern Ontario?

[Oleg Bach]

Six Nations "protesters" have been arrested at the Stiriling St. site:

http://www.thespec.com/News/BreakingNews/article/251126

Of course they would arrest only a select few. It's doubtful that the real leaders were picked up..if they did snatch up the real leaders who would the lawyers have to toy and deal with? The real guys were at home listening to Sinatra records and eating Kentucky fried....wonder if poor old Mike Harris and his former handlers are cringing yet?

[jennie]

Of course they would arrest only a select few. It's doubtful that the real leaders were picked up..if they did snatch up the real leaders who would the lawyers have to toy and deal with? The real guys were at home listening to Sinatra records and eating Kentucky fried....wonder if poor old Mike Harris and his former handlers are cringing yet?

Oleg, you are making this up and it is not true.

[Wild Bill]

Oleg, you are making this up and it is not true.

Jennie, you never made any comment on my post #218 about how native protesters provoked their non-native neighgbours by using them as cannon fodder for their land disputes and have destroyed any hope of reconciliation with the townsfolk of Caledonia or Oka.

I'd be interested how you think the two peoples will ever get along again.

Or if you even think it important. Or if you deny it actually has happened!

Whatever, I just wondered why you are so quick to debate other points and left mine in that post alone. Perhaps you consider the idea too trivial.

[jennie]

Jennie, you never made any comment on my post #218 about how native protesters provoked their non-native neighgbours by using them as cannon fodder for their land disputes and have destroyed any hope of reconciliation with the townsfolk of Caledonia or Oka.

I'd be interested how you think the two peoples will ever get along again.

Or if you even think it important. Or if you deny it actually has happened!

Whatever, I just wondered why you are so quick to debate other points and left mine in that post alone. Perhaps you consider the idea too trivial.

I did respond to that, bill. Go back and read my response and let me know if you have any comments or questions.

Basically, though, your timing is off a bit because Friday and today, Six Nations AND local residents have joined forces to successfully shut down the expanded Edwards landfill.

The ability of Six Nations to "get along" ... work together ... with the people of Caledonia and the County will depend on the ability of those people to accept that things have changed forever. Unfortunately the Mayor and Council and the County 'movers and shakers' were all primed to rake in millions from SPRAWL development along the Grand River ... on Six Nations' traditional land. They still won't accept that that is not going to happen, and they keep whining for someone to "get them off the site".

People like that will never 'get along' with Six Nations, and probably never did anyway, but that is only a small minority of people, and shrinking fast.

Especially now that the locals are all happily supporting Six Nations latest 'blockade', and are all happy that the Confederacy has the jurisdiction to do so.

[kengs333]

I did respond to that, bill. Go back and read my response and let me know if you have any comments or questions.

Basically, though, your timing is off a bit because Friday and today, Six Nations AND local residents have joined forces to successfully shut down the expanded Edwards landfill.

Especially now that the locals are all happily supporting Six Nations latest 'blockade', and are all happy that the Confederacy has the jurisdiction to do so.

If you seriously think that "Canadians" have any more respect or sympathy for Six Nations with all that his gone on, you're sadly mistaken. I think given Six Nation's track record, the involvement of some of its members and sympathizers is probably something that those opposing the landfill had little choice in. And I'm sure Six Nations isn't involved in this out of any concern for what effect it will have on the lives of "Canadians" in general. And what I'm more sure of is that you probably had no involvement in any of it, rather just used it as an excuse to go out there and cause some more civil disobedience.

I remember when Six Nations started getting involved in Red Hill; all this nonsense about burial mounds and the Red Hill valley being Indian territory--well, that about ruined any chances of saving the valley, and we all see what's become of it now.

Edited November 20, 2007 by kengs333

[kengs333]

If that is what you think....I just wonder how you ever got past "Ten Little Indians" in your studies.

How many archaeological digs have you been on in southern Ontario?

Hmmm.... not willing to admit whether you've graduated from High School or attended university.

Oh, I've seen some of those Six Nations "archeological" digs--it's a joke, these people know little or nothing about archeology, how to catalogue, date, and interpret any data that they claim to find.

But to be honest, I'm not sure just what is so important about being present at an archeological dig, how does this somehow have a greater importance to a post-secondary education. Well, I guess looking at old bits of pottery and animal bone doesn't require the ability to read or write, so I guess I can understand why it would appeal to some...

[Wild Bill]

I did respond to that, bill. Go back and read my response and let me know if you have any comments or questions.

Basically, though, your timing is off a bit because Friday and today, Six Nations AND local residents have joined forces to successfully shut down the expanded Edwards landfill.

The ability of Six Nations to "get along" ... work together ... with the people of Caledonia and the County will depend on the ability of those people to accept that things have changed forever. Unfortunately the Mayor and Council and the County 'movers and shakers' were all primed to rake in millions from SPRAWL development along the Grand River ... on Six Nations' traditional land. They still won't accept that that is not going to happen, and they keep whining for someone to "get them off the site".

People like that will never 'get along' with Six Nations, and probably never did anyway, but that is only a small minority of people, and shrinking fast.

Especially now that the locals are all happily supporting Six Nations latest 'blockade', and are all happy that the Confederacy has the jurisdiction to do so.

Was this your response?

"The government ignores them unless Canadians are screaming at their governments.

The government has ignored Six Nations for over 200 years. It's our turn to feel the pain.

They are sovereign. The payments are their money in trust with Canada, and Canada isn't even keeping up with the interest payments on what it owes them in leases, let alone paying for the settled land.

Of course, the blockades, all of the local discomfort could have been avoided if the 150 OPP officers had not attacked 21 unarmed women, men youth and children in the middle of the night with excessive force. I believe it was the Mayor and the developers and the local Judge that brought that about, so I guess they reap what they sow."

********

I spoke of how developers can never trust in starting any development in Caledonia again, how the townsfolk have lost many of their businesses and livelihoods, how the atmosphere between natives and townsfolk seems to have been ruined perhaps for generations and THAT is your response?!

That because the OPP took what you consider to be unfair action against the protesters that the townsfolk became legitimate targets?!! We didn't hear about Marie Trainer being whacked with a piece of lumber! Or Fantino either. Just some old man. We didn't see video footage of councilors being yanked out of their cars and roughed up, just an old man and his wife. Haven't heard of anyone whooping it up and driving around on ATV's through the MAYOR'S back yard!

I'm afraid I find your view rather callous. To me using innocents as cannon fodder in a war with others is just immoral. If I had a dispute with a native I would never consider taking it out on whatever natives I happen to meet! That would be simple racism and it works both ways.

If that's your view, I don't believe we even have any common ground for debate!

Forgive me, I'll try not to further waste your time.

[Posit]

Dbl post

Edited November 20, 2007 by Posit

[Posit]

Hmmm.... not willing to admit whether you've graduated from High School or attended university.

Oh, I've seen some of those Six Nations "archeological" digs--it's a joke, these people know little or nothing about archeology, how to catalogue, date, and interpret any data that they claim to find.

But to be honest, I'm not sure just what is so important about being present at an archeological dig, how does this somehow have a greater importance to a post-secondary education. Well, I guess looking at old bits of pottery and animal bone doesn't require the ability to read or write, so I guess I can understand why it would appeal to some...

Honours for both. MA in Socio-cultural Anthropology. Show me yours now.

The "digs" are important to explore the defined history of the Great Lakes regions. Oh...and my thesis? The Expansion of the Iroquois Confederacy, Trade, Commerce and Culture of the Great Lakes....

[kengs333]

Just some old man. We didn't see video footage of councilors being yanked out of their cars and roughed up, just an old man and his wife.

If you think she's being callous now, you should see what she wrote about the old man and his wife on someone's blog. I'll see if I can find the link. She basically claims that they had it coming because they provoked the situation, the old man's injuries were not that bad and that he had had prior medical problems, and the whole incident overblown--things to that effect.

Some of the stuff that I've read about her on the reclamation message board seems to suggest that some people don't like her and a few others getting involved in their issues, because she has an "agenda".

She even has her own blogs "grannyrantson" and "sixnationssupporter". Goes by "granny" on the reclamation message board (over 4000 posts), usually just posts as "g" when she posts comments on other people's blogs. And I think has a message board and goes by the username of "sara" as well.

Reading what she posts gets somewhat disturbing at times, which really makes one wonder...

[kengs333]

Honours for both. MA in Socio-cultural Anthropology. Show me yours now.

The "digs" are important to explore the defined history of the Great Lakes regions. Oh...and my thesis? The Expansion of the Iroquois Confederacy, Trade, Commerce and Culture of the Great Lakes....

Oh, I know what archeological digs are meant to accomplish; I was curious why you would imply that standing around at an archeoloigcal site has more significance than an academic education. You couldn't just fess up in the first place that you have an MA, or did you need time to think something up or ask someone what you should say to sound convincing?

So let's have the title of your thesis if that's not it; I'd certainly like to have a look at it.

[AngusThermopyle]

Well I'll be!

You're right Kends, I went to the GrannyRantsON site and it is Jennie. You can tell right away. What was interesting is the way she presents the whole Gualttieri (sp?) story. It's quite a bit different from what she's stated here.

I do believe that I've expressed doubts as to her motives before though, as when I mentioned that she always refers to herself in the familiar when she talks about Native culture.

Jennie, did you never read any Shakespeare? You know, the bit about "oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practise to decieve".It's very true you know, the Bard had amazing insight into people and what motivates them.

[Posit]

Oh, I know what archeological digs are meant to accomplish; I was curious why you would imply that standing around at an archeoloigcal site has more significance than an academic education. You couldn't just fess up in the first place that you have an MA, or did you need time to think something up or ask someone what you should say to sound convincing?

So let's have the title of your thesis if that's not it; I'd certainly like to have a look at it.

Learning history in a "hands-on" way is far more valuable than sitting around ingesting textual regurgitations from flunkies who filled their books with their personal prejudices. See I know where you got your history education from and let me tell you there is so much wrong with recorded history that it will require a high-colonic to before the influences of many of the old shit disturbers posing as historians get erased from academia.

So like I said. Show me yours.

Edited November 20, 2007 by Posit

[kengs333]

Learning history in a "hands-on" way is far more valuable than sitting around ingesting textual regurgitations from flunkies who filled their books with their personal prejudices. See I know where you got your history education from and let me tell you there is so much wrong with recorded history that it will require a high-colonic to before the influences of many of the old shit disturbers posing as historians get erased from academia.

So like I said. Show me yours.

No, I think the primary manner in which one can derive an understanding of the archeology of a given region is by first and foremost reading and understanding the reports of all of the other relevant archeological digs in the area. There's no two way about it. You have to build a foundation upon which any future information can analyzed and interpeted; there's just no way that an understanding can be derived solely or largely from participating in so-called "'hands-on' way," and to make such an assertion makes me wonder about your supposed MA credentioals.

As for the following sentence, which sounds more like the ramblings of a radical-leftist high-school drop-out than it does an graduate student:

"See I know where you got your history education from and let me tell you there is so much wrong with recorded history that it will require a high-colonic to before the influences of many of the old shit disturbers posing as historians get erased from academia." [emphasis mine]

Are you serious? Anyone who studies history knows about the varying degrees of reliability of historians, but one would think a grad student could articulate this a little better. Yes, some historians are crassly agenda-driven, and all have some sort of bias. And you're any better? You clearly have an agenda, which is all the more reason why I'd like to read your thesis. Since I can't find it on-line, where can I get a copy?

[jennie]

Well I'll be!

You're right Kends, I went to the GrannyRantsON site and it is Jennie. You can tell right away. What was interesting is the way she presents the whole Gualttieri (sp?) story. It's quite a bit different from what she's stated here.

I do believe that I've expressed doubts as to her motives before though, as when I mentioned that she always refers to herself in the familiar when she talks about Native culture.

Jennie, did you never read any Shakespeare? You know, the bit about "oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practise to decieve".It's very true you know, the Bard had amazing insight into people and what motivates them.

I am not trying to deceive anyone.

The conspiracy is in your mind.

I am quite straightforward about who I am, what I stand for, wouldn't you say?

Straightforward is my middle name!

Who I am is none of your business, though is it?

[kengs333]

Yeah it is, actually, because of your professed radical senitments and your occasional direct and indirect threats to use violence, other means to force your agenda. You, to me, are little better than McHale, and boy if I don't read all of those posts at your other favorite forum where you and others constantly go on and on and on about the identities and characters of the pro-Canadian protesters at Caledonia. So you're just being a tad hypocritical (again) aren't you?

[Posit]

Yeah it is, actually, because of your professed radical senitments and your occasional direct and indirect threats to use violence, other means to force your agenda. You, to me, are little better than McHale, and boy if I don't read all of those posts at your other favorite forum where you and others constantly go on and on and on about the identities and characters of the pro-Canadian protesters at Caledonia. So you're just being a tad hypocritical (again) aren't you?

Funny that you should bring the McH name into this discussion and slag him. ...Yet....you two have so much in common....Maybe even a membership in the same group.....Maybe even grand daddy's from the same country....

[kengs333]

Funny that you should bring the McH name into this discussion and slag him. ...Yet....you two have so much in common....Maybe even a membership in the same group.....Maybe even grand daddy's from the same country....

That's so sad. You make assumptions about what I believe based on your bigoted; but I guess that's not racism, is it? No, I don't care much for McHale, because he's no better than the hot heads who are running the show on the Six Nations side. I'm simply a law abiding Canadian who doesn't care much for the nonsense going on in Caledonia.

What difference does it make what country my "grand daddy's" [sic] is from? Again, how is that not a racist statement? I've already explained what kind of a person both of my grandfathers were; you are nothing compared to them, whatever your race or heritage.

[jennie]

That's so sad. You make assumptions about what I believe based on your bigoted; but I guess that's not racism, is it? No, I don't care much for McHale, because he's no better than the hot heads who are running the show on the Six Nations side. I'm simply a law abiding Canadian who doesn't care much for the nonsense going on in Caledonia.

What difference does it make what country my "grand daddy's" [sic] is from? Again, how is that not a racist statement? I've already explained what kind of a person both of my grandfathers were; you are nothing compared to them, whatever your race or heritage.

[AngusThermopyle]

I don't see how comparing crime rates in different communities can be considered racist. As for racism I'm afraid I've heard more name calling and innuendos from Jennie and Posit than anyone else here. Using the loose definition of both a case could be made that they are very racist indeed.

The numbers simply don't lie, though some would like it to be so.

[Posit]

I don't see how comparing crime rates in different communities can be considered racist. As for racism I'm afraid I've heard more name calling and innuendos from Jennie and Posit than anyone else here. Using the loose definition of both a case could be made that they are very racist indeed.

The numbers simply don't lie, though some would like it to be so.

Sure they do...kens333 has not only been fudging the numbers, but also history. And he is specifically targeting native people, not comparisons between communities - see his citations about non-SN residents included in his fudges.

[AngusThermopyle]

What you say may have some truth to it. Could you explain how exactly he is fudgeing the numbers? I mean, just saying he is doesn't really clarify the matter.

This thread however is about arrests being made, that really doesn't constitute racism. We've seen the black community make such claims many times and those claims are dismissed generally as a feeble form of "hail Mary pass" in order to save face and reputation. As well, these claims are usually made to silence opposition who point out unsavory facts about those in question.

[jbg]

This thread however is about arrests being made, that really doesn't constitute racism. We've seen the black community make such claims many times and those claims are dismissed generally as a feeble form of "hail Mary pass" in order to save face and reputation. As well, these claims are usually made to silence opposition who point out unsavory facts about those in question.

There is such a thing as "driving while black". While I am no person who screams "racism" at every turn, we need to recognize that most members of minority communities are law-abiding.

Remember, I am a member of a visible minority, the Jewish community, which is as minority as it gets, with 1.9% of the population.

[M.Dancer]

There is such a thing as "driving while black". While I am no person who screams "racism" at every turn, we need to recognize that most members of minority communities are law-abiding.

Remember, I am a member of a visible minority, the Jewish community, which is as minority as it gets, with 1.9% of the population.

What makes you visable?

I had a friend in high school.. last name Baker. Knew him for two years before I found out he was Jewish (and back then Jewish was as alien to me as a Martian) doesn't believe me I didn't know...I asked how would I be able to know? He says....how about my Jewfro?

....it was 1974....every one was trying to look like Disco-Stu