Do you support public funding for faith-based schools?

[Higgly]

Yes or no. What's it gonna be?

[Higgly]

This was supposed to be a poll. God knows how it ended up like this. We have a new forum folks. A referee who handles the puck and software that is even more vague than it used to be.

[fellowtraveller]

You've actually asked two questions.

Yes, I do support public funding for faith based schools on the strict requirement that they are obliged to teach the provincial curriculum using provincially licensed professional teachers, and to be a part of the public school system.

No, I do not support the existence of separate, publicly funded school boards outside the public system, including the Catholic system. One board, and it should be the largest most diverse tent required by its constituents.

[geoffrey]

Eliminate public funding (or switch purely to a voucher based system) and let people setup whatever private schools they wish, faith based or otherwise... following rough guidelines of proper education of course.

[sucker punch]

Eliminate public funding (or switch purely to a voucher based system) and let people setup whatever private schools they wish, faith based or otherwise... following rough guidelines of proper education of course.

Privatization is a very dangerous route to follow.

[kuzadd]

Yes or no. What's it gonna be?

NO, to public funding of any and all faith based schools.

[Argus]

Yes or no. What's it gonna be?

No, I don't support public funding - except for Catholic schools.

Why? Because in essence they aren't any different from the public school system except that they add a religious class, and instill more discipline and give more homework and produce better students.

The Catholic system doesn't ghettoize Catholics. There is no discernable difference, really, between the graduate of a public school and the graduate of the Catholic school system.

Other faith based schools would ghettoize the children of people who are already foreigners, and encourage them to retain their inferior, and often violent and depraved foreign cultural value systems.

[john farson]

Eliminate public funding (or switch purely to a voucher based system) and let people setup whatever private schools they wish, faith based or otherwise... following rough guidelines of proper education of course.

I tend to agree.

[fellowtraveller]

Other faith based schools would ghettoize the children of people who are already foreigners, and encourage them to retain their inferior, and often violent and depraved foreign cultural value systems.

Baloney.

here is why, this works.

Eliminate public funding (or switch purely to a voucher based system) and let people setup whatever private schools they wish, faith based or otherwise... following rough guidelines of proper education of course.

Wow.

Talk about instant ghettoization.

I can understand parents wanting a better standard of education for their children, but is pisses me off to see the selfishness inherent in denying some quality to those less fortunate, and less fortunate children at that.

[cowtown]

Yes or no. What's it gonna be?

Yes. It was agreed upon in the Albert Act 1905 when Alberta was formed as a province.

On your property taxes, in Alberta, you must select the school board you wish to fund. If your child is in the Catholic system your school taxes are to be allocated to that board. The same if your child is part of the public system.

[Bonam]

Do you support public funding for faith-based schools?

No. Not for any religion or under any circumstance.

[geoffrey]

Privatization is a very dangerous route to follow.

Only if you believe that government is smarter than you. I happen not to. Freedom of choice is far superior than equality of wealth.

Wow.

Talk about instant ghettoization.

Take a look around your city. We are already there.

I can understand parents wanting a better standard of education for their children, but is pisses me off to see the selfishness inherent in denying some quality to those less fortunate, and less fortunate children at that.

Why would there be a denial of quality? There are charity hospitals in the US that far surpass any socialised ones in Canada in quality?

Again, freedom of choice is much more important. Poor kids will always have it harder unless you enforce absolute equal incomes on every Canadian. Even still, the kids of drunkards and drug dealers will still do worse, ect. ect.. Good luck. There is no equality now. In fact, the gap is larger because in most provinces (Alberta has a voucher system) you have to pay for public schools AND whatever private one you send your kid to.

Only the super rich get private schools, a voucher system opens up private education choices to those in the middle classes as well.

[fellowtraveller]

I'm sorry for you, but pretty much everything after

Why would there be a denial of quality?

is rubbish.

What do you really think happens in a true voucher system?

Rich kids go to better schools because they can. Poor kids go to crap schools because they must. Rich parents lobby successfully for any edge that will keep the poor kids out and the gravy rolling for theirs. Poor parents are too busy working to lobby anybody.

And Alberta does not have a true voucher system, whereby schools are rewarded financially for good performance and punished for bad performance. I can understand your confusion, but the crap that has been allowed to happen in Calgary is not representative of Alberta in general.

[jennie]

No, I don't support public funding - except for Catholic schools.

Why? Because in essence they aren't any different from the public school system except that they add a religious class, and instill more discipline and give more homework and produce better students.

The Catholic system doesn't ghettoize Catholics. There is no discernable difference, really, between the graduate of a public school and the graduate of the Catholic school system.

Other faith based schools would ghettoize the children of people who are already foreigners, and encourage them to retain their inferior, and often violent and depraved foreign cultural value systems.

Argus I must point out that you are basing your judgment on very questionable assumptions about 'foreigners' ... more than questionable ... just plain wrong ... and damaging.

[jennie]

You've actually asked two questions.

Yes, I do support public funding for faith based schools on the strict requirement that they are obliged to teach the provincial curriculum using provincially licensed professional teachers, and to be a part of the public school system.

No, I do not support the existence of separate, publicly funded school boards outside the public system, including the Catholic system. One board, and it should be the largest most diverse tent required by its constituents.

I have heard the idea floated of public funding with mandatory provincial curriculum, but not the "one board" concept. That is very interesting! I think I agree. This is a change for me because I have been opposed to funding faith based schools until now, but I am beginning to see the wisdom .... levelling the playing field, equal opportunity in the faith of your choice, etc.

Might be a bit expensive though ... ?

What about the 'toni' private schools? Do they continue to exist outside the 'public board' ?

[jawapunk]

I have to say definitely NO to public funding of what amounts to a private affair. Honestly, faith has no part in a un-biased classroom. If people want their children to learn specific faith based curriculae, then they should set up a school through their church/mosque/temple/synagogue etc...

Other than that, many children have after school faith/theology classes. I see no true need for a fully operational and dedicated faith based school, other than to unite like minded peoples which is the function that a church provides anyway and which is the proper venue for that.

I do not believe that my tax money should pay for this. I don't expect others to pay money for my own pursuits, I realize these things come out of my own pocket.

[capricorn]

John Tory has done a poor job in explaining his plan for faith based schools. How in the heck are ordinary Ontarians expected to understand the mechanics of funding and operating schools in what amounts to a complete overhaul of our education system.

If I am right in my assessment, what we would be looking at is this. A number of children would withdraw from the public system and transfer to schools which are in line with their religion. So, no new places would be created. In other words, taxpayers are already paying for these "seats" but the "seats" would be re-distributed across various schools.

One question is where would these schools come from, I mean the buildings. Apparently, many schools close for various reasons, the main one being declining enrollment. Presumably, these vacant schools could be converted to faith-based schools.

Then, these schools would be subject to provincial regulations re teacher accreditation, testing, uniform curriculum, safety standards and other provincial requirements.

The Catholic School Board is put forward as an example in that it operates within budget with excellent scholastic results. It has also been said that having a separate school board for Catholics has not prevented its students from blending with members of other ethnic communities outside the school environment. Indeed, our Premier, his family and many MPPs are products of that system and seem well adjusted regarding their interaction with ethnic groups of all stripes. Actually, our experience with Catholic schools tell us that such a system does indeed work.

IMO, the cost to taxpayers to implement faith based schools would be insignificant. Having looked at all sides of the debate, I now support the concept of faith based schools. I have a feeling that for many Ontarians, objection to faith based schools is rooted in a fear of the unknown. This is something I can definitely understand.

If we are to be a truly diverse society, why would we insist on lumping all students into one school system? Another question. What is wrong with giving parents more choice in selecting the type of environment in which their children are to be educated?

[Topaz]

I say leave well-enough alone. Canada has supported the public and the Catholic systems for years and that's the way it should stay. As far as education goes, there is a differences in were one lives. The larger boards have swimming pools, other programs not offer in all boards, just like the way kids are educated in the public and Catholic schools. I know people who have switched over to the Catholic school so their kids would have a better education. Right now, I'm paying school taxes and I don't have any kids in the system or other relatives. Will the taxes go down when the enrollment goes down in the smaller boards??

[fellowtraveller]

I have heard the idea floated of public funding with mandatory provincial curriculum, but not the "one board" concept. That is very interesting! I think I agree. This is a change for me because I have been opposed to funding faith based schools until now, but I am beginning to see the wisdom .... levelling the playing field, equal opportunity in the faith of your choice, etc.

Might be a bit expensive though ... ?

What about the 'toni' private schools? Do they continue to exist outside the 'public board' ?

It is not an 'idea', it is a reality in some jurisdictions.

Neither is the 'one board' concept, some provinces do not have separate public/Catholic systems.

Of course private schools still exist, they always will, but where the public system offers parents a wide range of options there is little reason to pay big money elsewhere. And there is another, less obvious reason for allowing choice within a single public system. People who start up 'speciality' schools, including faith related schools, are involved in their childrens education, they are committed and interested . They are exactly the kind of people you want inside the big public tent, helping their kids learn, helping at the schools. As long as every school follows a minimum provincial curriculum taught by certified professionals.... let there be choice for everybody, not just the wealthy who can afford to send their kids to expensive private schools.

[fellowtraveller]

If we are to be a truly diverse society, why would we insist on lumping all students into one school system? Another question. What is wrong with giving parents more choice in selecting the type of environment in which their children are to be educated?

Easy: having a single, large system has obvious economies of scale. Adminstartion, busing, facilites, planning are just the tip of the iceberg.

Your second question is based on a false premise, that a complete and separate system is required to offer more choice. A single school system can offer a rainbow of choice, a big tent that can offer nearly anything a community could want, within reason. Obviously, any scheme gets more restrictive in small communities or rural areas.

[capricorn]

Easy: having a single, large system has obvious economies of scale. Adminstartion, busing, facilites, planning are just the tip of the iceberg.

Your second question is based on a false premise, that a complete and separate system is required to offer more choice. A single school system can offer a rainbow of choice, a big tent that can offer nearly anything a community could want, within reason. Obviously, any scheme gets more restrictive in small communities or rural areas.

The bigger the bureaucracy, the more inefficiency and waste creep in. Economies of scale are lost.

How can you offer a "rainbow of choice" when there is only one choice from which to choose. The "big tent" concept removes all choice.

If you oppose faith based schools, what would you do with the Catholic school board?

[fellowtraveller]

The bigger the bureaucracy, the more inefficiency and waste creep in. Economies of scale are lost.

How can you offer a "rainbow of choice" when there is only one choice from which to choose. The "big tent" concept removes all choice.

If you oppose faith based schools, what would you do with the Catholic school board?

Would you like a couple hundred examples of why the first sentence is wrong, specifically with school boards? Here is a prime one: Catholic and public school boards in suburbia both bus kids all over the place. Often, if not always, the schools are built back to back on the same chunk of land. Half full buses from one board rroll by shivering kids goign to almost the same destination. Another: a Catholic board has a school 20% under capacity right next to a public school at 20% overcapacity. Neother makes any effort to do the obvious. Another: 20 boxcars of toilet paper going to obne warehouse is cheaper than 2x10 boxacrs going to two warehouses. And on and on, and that doesn't address where the real money is: staffing.

Once again, here is an example of a rainbow of choice, all inside a big tent. What do you think 'a big tent' means? To me it means a school board that offers a very wide range of prorgams to all parents/students, which keeps their kids and their money and their support solidly inside a single system.

I do not oppose faith based schools, where did you get that idea? Include them in the public system. merge the Catholic board into the public, and allow any school that wishes to have a Catholic component. After the provincial curriclum is covered of course..........

[capricorn]

I do not oppose faith based schools, where did you get that idea? Include them in the public system. merge the Catholic board into the public, and allow any school that wishes to have a Catholic component. After the provincial curriclum is covered of course..........

Quite right fellowtraveller. I checked the previous posts and you had in fact already answered that question. My bad.

You rightly point out that there is waste in the present public/separate systems, i.e. transportation etc. Who wants to import these deficiencies into another system.

The whole business of a revamped school system has not, to my knowledge, been costed by Tory. I suppose that's too much to ask.

As far as I can see, we agree to the basic concept. The mechanics of such a system is another matter.

[Rue]

No, I don't support public funding - except for Catholic schools.

Why? Because in essence they aren't any different from the public school system except that they add a religious class, and instill more discipline and give more homework and produce better students.

The Catholic system doesn't ghettoize Catholics. There is no discernable difference, really, between the graduate of a public school and the graduate of the Catholic school system.

Other faith based schools would ghettoize the children of people who are already foreigners, and encourage them to retain their inferior, and often violent and depraved foreign cultural value systems.

Translation; give Catholics the right to publically funded schools but no one else.

Sounds fair to me. No discrimination there.

You and Dalton should get together its the same bull shit he tries to say.

Argus either no one has the right or everyone has the right to public funding.

Since funding everyone is iresponsible no one should be funded. All schools should be non religious.

You want to study a particular form of relgion-DO IT AFTER SCHOOL ON YOUR OWN TIME.

If you want to study religion in schools, it should be taught without bias to any one religion and taught by examining ALL religions equally.

Saint Argus Secondary School

Saint Argus Elementary

Saint Argus Collegiate

Father Argus Elementary

Uh huh.

[jennie]

Quite right fellowtraveller. I checked the previous posts and you had in fact already answered that question. My bad.

You rightly point out that there is waste in the present public/separate systems, i.e. transportation etc. Who wants to import these deficiencies into another system.

The whole business of a revamped school system has not, to my knowledge, been costed by Tory. I suppose that's too much to ask.

As far as I can see, we agree to the basic concept. The mechanics of such a system is another matter.

I am a bit confused ... is it Tory or McGuinty proposing this?

I do wonder about the cost too ... not sure how many students are involved at all, in fact. Another issue would be standardizing everything from book budgets to facility standards, etc. Sometimes harmonizing costs are high, especially teachers' salaries perhaps.

I wonder how it would work if you offered it on a phase in basis ... eg, the province pick up some things like implementing its curriculum in those schools, providing program materials and resources, etc., and then other things as time goes on (buildings, etc.)