Jews barred from renting apartments in Nice, France

[marcinmoka]

Nicholas Sarkozy appears to be making a considerable effort to distance himself from these predecessors.

Considering his grandfather was a jew, one would assume. And while many knew of his background and his friendliness towards Israel (I heard a few Maghrebiens call him the "Israeli Trojan Horse" or simply, "sale fiuj") yet the French elected him in record numbers. Not to mention more Jews live in France than in any other European nation, as do Arab Muslims, and seeing the animosity between those two large groups, much tension is bound to arise. But not nearly the same amount which your doomsday analysis makes it out to be where you try to paint a nation I know quite well, as being le "Quatrieme Riech". I know your goal was to show off to Buffy or whoever, but there are far more anti semitic regions in this world and your post, whether inadvertently or not, manages to make the French out to be some xenophobic racists who kill at the sight of a yarmulke. I would say the U.S, notably the south and the wider Evangelical movement poses a far greater threat to the Jews than the practically non-existent Catholic Church in France.

And while there was plenty of animosity between the French elite and Israel, as France strived to be, in Napoleon's words, "A Muslim superpower", don't forget that a good deal of Israel's might, be it the trusty ol' Kfir's, or the basics of their nuclear program were supplied by zee French.

But for someone who complains about "painting everyone with the same brush", you do an awful lot yourself.

[southerncomfort]

I hold my tongue when I hear the Buffy’s of the world lecturing people about France.

Oh please don't do that your doing a great job, keep up the good work !

[Argus]

Buffy also raised the argument that Israelis discriminate against Arabs in Israel.

She provided no basis for this allegation nor did she explain how it is relevant to Jews experiencing discrimination in France.

This inability of the left to separate "Jew" from "Israeli" is behind much of the current fashionable anti-semitism in the West. If you are a Jew, wherever you live, then in the petty minds of the left you are guilty by association of all the crimes they imagine Israel has commited, and so you deserve their contempt.

[Rue]

Considering his grandfather was a jew, one would assume. "

Why assume? See it is precisely that type of assumption I ask you to challenge. I do not think for one moment you meant your comment to be anti-semitic but may I explain why such an assumption is-assuming because people have a blood relative who was Jewish automatically makes them pro-Israel is exactly the kind of blurring of Jewish and Israeli political concepts I am criticizing in this and another post I placed on the religious topic site.

Isn't it possible Mr. Sarkozy is distancing himself because of he may be typical of French Christians who wish to distance themselves from the Catholic Church of the past? Or could it be he is simply more open minded? Do you automatically assume from someone's blood ties that this can infer what their political opinions are? Such assumptions are by their nature based on race assumption or in this case inferring that all Jews and therefore anyone even with Jewish bloodlines thinks the same. That Sir is nonsense. I also think the fact that his wife has made no secret of her dislike for George Bush but had no problems travelling to Libya to converse with Mummar Ghaddafi over the release of those unfortunate Bulgarian nurses blamed for aids if anything shows if he was so bound by the ideology you infer, he would not be sending his wife for tea with Moo-Moo.

That said your nose out of joint and comment to me I am smearing the French is interesting considering I made a point in my response to make it clear I was not speaking about French people in general and made a point of stating such bigotry was a minority of people who I do not focus on when I think of France.

Why don't you read that part again. No I do not think bigotry or the specific manifestation of anti-Jewish bigotry is particular to France. Of course not.

I am sure you would concede though the versions of anti-semitism in France can indeed be classified as the old school from the Catholic Church and the new school from trendy leftists or North Africans who do not take the time to differentiate Jews from Israelis when they lash out with their anger at Israeli policies.

I am sure you would be the first to admit France has both these forms.

Are they wide spread? I suppose it would depend on where you live and what you experience. As you are well aware many of the very rich and privileged Jewisg people of France many not feel the impact at all. As you are also aware many French Jews are quite assimiliated and play down their heritage.

Interestingly I happen to agree with the French decree that said keep all religious displays out of public schools. My problem is not with laws that apply to everyone equally, which France tries very hard to do, its with people on an individual or perhaps group level who have preconceived negative notions of others based solely on their religious, ethnic, racial or other status.

So no you don't have to suggest I am smeering the French. The foibles and peculiarities of the French and criticism for them as a whole will not come from me although I am the first to admit I can't stand the arrogance of Parisiens and much prefer the layed back approach of the Southern French in Perpignon and Motpelliers. I would also tell you I am very well aware of the right wing Le Pen anti-semites in Marseilles and the anti-Jewish sentiment of North Africans who interestingly suffer their own discrimination and no I do not suggest every single North African hates Jews but I would suggest to you, you won't find too many French speaking Arabs in Israel taking the time to distinguish Jews from Israelis as to their political views.

All that said your comment about the French and military sales is curious. I am well aware the French helped set up the Israeli goevrnment and its post office. To this day you see the traces of that in the French language oon certain buildings.

That said, surely you are aware that Chuck de Gaulle turned on Israel in 1967 and then his buddies Pompidou, D'Estang and Chirac have carried on since that day openly they do not agree with Israel for the simple reason it can not give as much business to the French as the Arab world can. I mean it was not like they made it a secret in their foreign trade policy papers. They stated that openly.

As for military sales, no France does not trade with Israel and hasn't since 1967 as you are well aware. It openly was sending support to the PLO and this is the same country whose Chirac regime sided with Hezbollah when they killed 55 French commandoes and bent over backwords to facilitate Arafat''s drug cartel oeprating out of Marseilles not to mention being only to happy to pocket his drug money and stolen aid money iin French banks.

France has dispicable foreign policy. It has openly supported blood killing lunatics such as Emperor for Life Bokassa in the Central African Republic while at the same time condemning Israel for being inhumane.

So you want to get your nose out of joint oh please do but I know the difference between a French citizen and its governments I criticize and no I do not need you or the research expert Buffy to lecture me on whether bigotry is particular to France. Thanks but you state the obvious.

I also am doing no different then you would do over a cup of coffee Sunday in Paris. I never met a French citizen who was not a critic of his country. That is one thing I love about it. Now if you could work on the attitude of Parisiens and turn them all into citizens of Perpignon I would have no problem. That is the extent of my smeers. I hate Parisiens for that famous arrogance of thinking civilization centres around them. I see no civilization in Paris, just stolen objects from the third world.

I love the Cote D'Azur and Avignons and Montpelliers but no keep Nices and Marseilles. Too much Le Pen influence.

[Rue]

Oh please don't do that your doing a great job, keep up the good work !

Thank you for your kind comments. And by the way Vives Le France. Vives Le Quebec

au Canada.

[marcinmoka]

To tell you the truth, I was waiting for the moment you would spring up and try and peg a scarlet letter on myself.

assuming because people have a blood relative who was Jewish automatically makes them pro-Israel is exactly the kind of blurring of Jewish and Israeli political concepts I am criticizing in this and another post I placed on the religious topic site.

Chapeau!. However in English, we have a wonderful little conjunction "a-n-d". And you are right, I did not mean it to be antisemitic, and most others would not perceive it as so. Perhaps a case of oversight, but I will gladly repost the sentence you are referring to:

And while many knew of his background and his friendliness towards Israel

Had "and" been replaced by "resulting in", yes, I would acknowledge your criticism.

This "assumption" you refer to was geared towards Sarkozy's distancing himself from anti-semitic belief and policies partly because of his family ties, and had jack to do with Israeli politics, thus why I included the above-stated conjunction. I know and know of many Jews without an iota of care for Israel. Whereas antisemitism is an issue which directly pertains to them, secular or not, for reasons one mustn't mention.

Do you automatically assume from someone's blood ties that this can infer what their political opinions are?

No. Is "antisemitism" strictly a political belief? Furthermore, if you were to extrapolated this concept unto the larger picture, are you suggesting that it is impossible that someone adopt political beliefs based on their "blood" or family ties? While it is not "automatic" as your point, I would also like to know your reason for "automatically" discounting this possibility. In fact, is it not the norm to be supportive of a nation, a people, a religion, a political ideology you have a connection with? Automatic...no, but common, yes.

As per the Juif ergo pro Israel, that is your imputation, not mine.

if anything shows if he was so bound by the ideology you infer

Which is?

I am sure you would be the first to admit France has both these forms.

Without a doubt.

I can't stand the arrogance of Parisiens and much prefer the layed back approach of the Southern French in Perpignon and Motpelliers.

Thus why I am partial to Gascognny.

Anyhow, personal preferences aside, my beef with your post was the overall tone of your post. While you did state that this was a minority who was responsible for the hate, it was grossly overshadowed by your examples of antisemitism, and what seemed an effort to paint a vilified portrait of France while ignoring the most positive things France has projected over Jewry. Quoting a French diplomat, and (justifiably) touting a few, but isolated anecdotes about a few political elites, while ignoring the sheer numbers of Jews who live there in peace is deceitful, albeit maybe not for you and I, but for someone not familiar with nation, focusing on the negatives paints a very bad picture.

Remember, the plural of anecdote is not data!

[Rue]

Marcinmoka you responded with great care and I appreciated you taking the time to clarify and thank you. I also must concur with your logic in that for the same reason I criticize any assumptions made simply based on blood lines, I in reverse can not automatically discount it either. Logic dictates no assumptions either way just an open mind and certainly that was your point and mine and I appreciate your comments and acknowledge them.

As you are aware tone on these posts often comes across worse then it sounds because we can't see our expressions as we right or put the right light touches to it as we would if we speak and can smile and adjust the sound of our voice. I sound far more facist in writing then in person.

In regards to Gascognny I must defer to you on that.

I particularly enjoyed this comment;

"Remember, the plural of anecdote is not data!"

Touche.