Harper: Canada never so united since 1967

[August1991]

"Despite the occasional squabbling between governments, the fact of the matter is this -- our country has not been this united since our Centennial 40 years ago this year," Harper said to loud applause from about 1,000 Conservatives at a barbecue on the Charlottetown waterfront.

Because of what Harper, in his speech, called Bloc Qu b cois "mischief-making," his government put forward a motion last November recognizing the Qu b cois as a nation within Canada.

"I know [the motion] was even controversial among some of you," Harper said. "[but] look at what has happened within the last year. Look at the good feeling toward Canada in the province of Quebec that we haven't seen for some time. I think we have every reason to be proud of what we did and proud of bringing this country together."

CanWest

Harper is right and he should take credit for this. In his short time as PM, he has shown that he understands the primary task of a federal PM: make the federation work.

If Dion were PM, he would confront and provoke in Latin style. Harper is a WASP who chooses a smug affability.

When it comes down to the X beside a ballot name, Harper will ultimately win his majority on this peace in Canada's confederation. (For this reason, Harper's support won't cross 40% until the vote is called.)

It has been so many decades that we have not had a reasonable, civilized peace. I'm even beginning to think that Harper might correct Trudeau's horrendous gaffe, square the circle, and make Canada a popularly civilized society.

[jdobbin]

Harper is right and he should take credit for this. In his short time as PM, he has shown that he understands the primary task of a federal PM: make the federation work.

If Dion were PM, he would confront and provoke in Latin style. Harper is a WASP who chooses a smug affability.

When it comes down to the X beside a ballot name, Harper will ultimately win his majority on this peace in Canada's confederation. (For this reason, Harper's support won't cross 40% until the vote is called.)

It has been so many decades that we have not had a reasonable, civilized peace. I'm even beginning to think that Harper might correct Trudeau's horrendous gaffe, square the circle, and make Canada a popularly civilized society.

Where is the independent claim that Canada is more united since 1967? This is political posturing that Harper is making.

Latest poll has the Liberals tied with the Tories in Quebec as of this past week.

Even after pouring money into Quebec and the rest of Canada all summer, it has not bought Harper over 40% in the polls.

Trudeau couldn't have been so awful in Quebec. He once had 74 of 75 seats.

[Higgly]

A speech made by a party leader to an audience of party members. Yawn. Keep moving, keep moving... Nothing to see here.... keep moving....

[ScottSA]

Where is the independent claim that Canada is more united since 1967? This is political posturing that Harper is making.

Latest poll has the Liberals tied with the Tories in Quebec as of this past week.

Even after pouring money into Quebec and the rest of Canada all summer, it has not bought Harper over 40% in the polls.

Trudeau couldn't have been so awful in Quebec. He once had 74 of 75 seats.

Why does he need an independent claim? Harper's claim is self-evidently true. Like it or not, Quebec separatism is in disarray...it expected the federal - provincial tug of war to continue, and when Harper simply let go of the rope it fell on its ass in the mud. That is a direct result of Harper's policies.

[jdobbin]

Why does he need an independent claim? Harper's claim is self-evidently true. Like it or not, Quebec separatism is in disarray...it expected the federal - provincial tug of war to continue, and when Harper simply let go of the rope it fell on its ass in the mud. That is a direct result of Harper's policies.

Forgive me if I think his claim is self-serving and not self-evidently true.

It sounds to me like the same strategy as Chretien used to do with his "I love Canada" speech. It is wrapping oneself in the flag.

Harper has been doing a lot of variations on this speech but it must not be selling since they haven't budged in the polls.

[runningdog]

more united???? Hogwash. We are provinces 1st (unless it's a national team sporting event), country 2nd. It's a shame that it's this way.

[Higgly]

Why does he need an independent claim? Harper's claim is self-evidently true.

I am particularly impressed by the fact that he made the pronouncement in the Maritimes. Heh, heh... As far as Quebec goes... it's the economy...my most respected fellow member.

Edited August 6, 2007 by Higgly

[cybercoma]

We've never been so united thanks to him calling Quebec a "nation"?

Empty words and empty ideas with no tangible benefits... that's all it took to appease Quebec?

This just seems like a bunch of rhetoric to me and I support Harper.

[geoffrey]

How about how upset Albertans are about the Quebec pandering? Alberta seperatism won't be an issue as long as Harper is in office, but the day he leaves it's going to be back alot stronger than before.

Canada isn't anymore united. It never will be. It's just a collection of competing region interests. It's time to recognize this and allow the provinces to govern according to the needs of their people, regardless of what detached folks in Ottawa want to tell them to do.

[Michael Bluth]

How about how upset Albertans are about the Quebec pandering? Alberta seperatism won't be an issue as long as Harper is in office, but the day he leaves it's going to be back alot stronger than before.

How upset are they?

I live here, am active in politics and just don't see it.

There has always been a certain segment of the population in Alberta that rails against this perceived injustice, but they have never been able to be a political force here.

The WCC won a seat in a provincial by-election in 1982, but they couldn't even hold onto that seat afterwards.

They peaked at about 12% of the vote and never were a real force. A lot of that anger appeared to have been related to the terrible state of the economy coupled with very justifiable anger at the NEP.

Can't see anything on the horizon to create another perfect storm for Western separatists.

[Leafless]

We've never been so united thanks to him calling Quebec a "nation"?

Empty words and empty ideas with no tangible benefits... that's all it took to appease Quebec?

This just seems like a bunch of rhetoric to me and I support Harper.

Empty words and empty ideas with no tangible benefits...that's all it took to appease Quebec?

There are some States which have two nations, such as Canada and Belgium.

http://geography.about.com/cs/politicalgeo...statenation.htm

[Leafless]

Trudeau couldn't have been so awful in Quebec. He once had 74 of 75 seats.

Harper will never be a Quebecois cultural icon that Trudeau was in Quebec.

This is why Canadian politics is dysfunctional as it hinges on culture.

[Michael Bluth]

Harper will never be a Quebecois cultural icon that Trudeau was in Quebec.

This is why Canadian politics is dysfunctional as it hinges on culture.

Harper shouldn't have to be a Quebecois cultural icon in Quebec. By definition he never could be. He's not Quebecois.

Canadian politics isn't really dysfuntional. We've had a functioning democracy for years. The democratic process is messy and ugly. That doesn't mean it is dysfuntional.

Dysfuntional is a democracy rife with a history of military coups and arbitrary suspensions of civil liberties.

[ScottSA]

How about how upset Albertans are about the Quebec pandering? Alberta seperatism won't be an issue as long as Harper is in office, but the day he leaves it's going to be back alot stronger than before.

I agree that western separatism is out there lurking. I don't think Harper himself is holding it back...but the fact the Cons are in power certainly is. If the Libs take power because of an Ontario vote, it'll be back with a fury.

I'm all for western separatism, as long as Saskatchewan and BC are included (preferable Manitoba too). The west can't hinge itself economically on oil revenues forever...I suspect farmland will be in big demand in the not too distant future.

[Canuck E Stan]

How upset are they?

I live here, am active in politics and just don't see it.

There has always been a certain segment of the population in Alberta that rails against this perceived injustice, but they have never been able to be a political force here.

The WCC won a seat in a provincial by-election in 1982, but they couldn't even hold onto that seat afterwards.

They peaked at about 12% of the vote and never were a real force. A lot of that anger appeared to have been related to the terrible state of the economy coupled with very justifiable anger at the NEP.

Can't see anything on the horizon to create another perfect storm for Western separatists.

If the big grab for oil money occurs, especially if Dion does it,you'll see the membership for the Western separation party swell to numbers that would look just like the PQ popularity in Quebec.

[jdobbin]

This is why Canadian politics is dysfunctional as it hinges on culture.

I don't know that Trudeau's culture was what propelled him as it was his ideas.

[Leafless]

I don't know that Trudeau's culture was what propelled him as it was his ideas.

Most of his ideas were culturally based.

Official languages, biculturalism to multiculturalism, Quebec cultural legacy, bilingualism, constitutional legacy (Charter).

The point is Trudeau worked against Canada by FAILING to establish a single unified culture.

Culture was the name of the game with Mr.Trudeau and is the prime reason we currently have dysfunctional politics in Canada.

[jdobbin]

Culture was the name of the game with Mr.Trudeau and is the prime reason we currently have dysfunctional politics in Canada.

I don't know that it is dysfunctional but I respect your right to believe so.

[geoffrey]

I'm all for western separatism, as long as Saskatchewan and BC are included (preferable Manitoba too). The west can't hinge itself economically on oil revenues forever...I suspect farmland will be in big demand in the not too distant future.

Only Alberta and BC share the pro-business attitude that I speak off. You'll also notice that only BC and Alberta were rated well for investment and the only ones with above average growth.

Saskatchewan is still haunted by socialists, and Manitoba is chaulk full of them.

If we are to divide Canada amongst reasonable lines, those two provinces would not be included with Alberta and BC. The culture, both social and political, are considerably different.

The point is Trudeau worked against Canada by FAILING to establish a single unified culture.

Good luck. We don't want any Eastern Ontario culture out here. Good luck selling your culture to Quebec or the Maritimes. Canada cannot ever possibly have a culture. We need to stop trying. Just split it up and form a nice little economic co-operative.

[jawapunk]

I'm all over separating. Here in Newfoundland, we have felt we have had a raw deal for quite a while, contributing to our own economic demise. When finally there is a path to prosperity through oil revenue the Harper government wants to screw us out of it.

If Harper wanted to take back billions from Alberta based on their energy/resource revenues, the support for separation would be alot higher out there, so before anyone craps on these dumb Newfs, think about that for a second.

[Michael Bluth]

I'm all over separating. Here in Newfoundland, we have felt we have had a raw deal for quite a while, contributing to our own economic demise. When finally there is a path to prosperity through oil revenue the Harper government wants to screw us out of it.

If Harper wanted to take back billions from Alberta based on their energy/resource revenues, the support for separation would be alot higher out there, so before anyone craps on these dumb Newfs, think about that for a second.

Alberta pays into equalization, Newfoundland takes money out of it. There is nothing to 'take back' from our equalization payments because we don't get any.

Equalization payments are not a right. Alberta doesn't receive it and hasn't for over 35 years.

Danny is crying that he is being 'screwed' because he expects to collect energy/resource revenues while still receiving money from equalization.

If Newfoundland really thinks it's getting such a raw deal then seriously put an offer on the table for separation.

Edited August 7, 2007 by Michael Bluth

[jawapunk]

My total point was that if we were allowed to keep oil/resource revenues now, then like Alberta we would not have to take out equalization payments within 10-15 years. That was the plan, we had hoped after getting resource revenues and then the new lower churchill falls project in Labrador, that the billions in revenue would move us out of a have not province to one that can be self sufficient.

One of the main reasons Alberta does not take out as you say, but pays in, is because of its rich oil/resource reserves and the fact that the province keeps all of its revenues from that. I doubt seriously that the agricultural sector that would have been the mainstay of Alberta's economy before Oil would make it the province the economic power that it is today.

I find it hilarious that there have been comments of Alberta or the west separating and that is not a problem, but when I bring up Newfoundland, the first comment has some sting to it. I'm not sure what there is to put on the table as it were, but I suppose we would leave Canada with what we brought with us in entering, The grandbanks fishery/oil reserves and all of labrador. The only forseeable problems I would have seen is patroling the waters to make sure overfishing wasn't happening, but since the maritime fishery has been destroyed in the last 50 years, it doesn't matter anyways.

Edited August 7, 2007 by jawapunk

[Michael Bluth]

My total point was that if we were allowed to keep oil/resource revenues now, then like Alberta we would not have to take out equalization payments within 10-15 years. That was the plan, we had hoped after getting resource revenues and then the new lower churchill falls project in Labrador, that the billions in revenue would move us out of a have not province to one that can be self sufficient.

One of the main reasons Alberta does not take out as you say, but pays in, is because of its rich oil/resource reserves and the fact that the province keeps all of its revenues from that. I doubt seriously that the agricultural sector that would have been the mainstay of Alberta's economy before Oil would make it the province the economic power that it is today.

I find it hilarious that there have been comments of Alberta or the west separating and that is not a problem, but when I bring up Newfoundland, the first comment has some sting to it. I'm not sure what there is to put on the table as it were, but I suppose we would leave Canada with what we brought with us in entering, The grandbanks fishery/oil reserves and all of labrador. The only forseeable problems I would have seen is patroling the waters to make sure overfishing wasn't happening, but since the maritime fishery has been destroyed in the last 50 years, it doesn't matter anyways.

Is there any sort of guarantee that you won't need equalization in 10 to 15 years? A plan of action?

Alberta doesn't keep all of its energy revenues anymore. The same buget Williams is whining about is the one that hurt Alberta on that front.

Uhhh, take a look a little earlier in this thread. I challenged Geoffrey when he talked about the west separating just like I challenged you.

Just leave a cheque to pay for the Government buildings, military installations and have a good time of it.

[flaquisimo]

We all know that whatever harper says is a lie, so it is not worth to answer to such nonsense. As an argument against the Conservative dicatatorship, I have suggested to the three leader of democratic parties in the House of Commos what in publish below, hoping that my fellow members will critisize my opinion to death:

Hello. I am a forum moderator.

It looks to me like you mistakenly sent this message as a Report instead of as a Reply. I am forwarding the text back to you so that you may cut and paste it into a reply to the appropriate thread.

Ch. A.

QUOTE

Charles Anthony,

You have been sent this communication from flaquisimo via the "Report this post to a moderator" link.

------------------------------------------------

Topic: Federal/Provincial Relations

------------------------------------------------

Link to post: http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....=0entry241865

------------------------------------------------

Report:

I believe that the next election will make or break Canada. The opposition parties must be responsible to all electors and asure us that they will wipe out the regime of Harper, owned by G.W. Bush who is a puppet of the multinationals that created global warming and polution that is poisoning the planet. To that effect, I have sent a suggestion to the three leaders of the national democratic parties which I paste here for all members comments:

Secretariat of Mr. Dion, with pertinent copies.

Respected Leaders of the Liberal, NDP and Green Parties,

Mr. Danny Williams, Hon NL Premier, has been eloquent in persuading most Canadian electors that in the next election the conservatives must be expelled from Parliament, because of their betrayal of Canada and of the rights of all Canadians. The majority favorable to contain the present conservative fraud is evident in every community, even if the corporate press hides the polls that demonstrate that the conservatives are around 10 points below the Liberals on the grass roots of the electorate.

The adoption of a Democratic electoral system of proportional representation will facilitate the objectives to:

1) Elect Mr. Dion as the Prime Minister because he is honest, has solutions for the problems and is capable to act and take decisions,

2) Give proportional representation in Parliament to the other democratic parties, the NDP and the Green, as members of the governing coalition, and

3) Give the Conservatives the Opposition with the number of MPs that corresponds exactly to the lowest percentage that they will receive in the next election.

The Opposition today which is presently a majority not counting the Bloc could pass a reform to the electoral system of Canada and achieve proportional representation in the House of Commons. There are many formulas existing in advanced democracies and the coalition of Liberals, NDPs and Greens could adopt the simplest which is the national percentage must be reflected in the final structure of the House.

For instance, in the next election nationally the Liberals may obtain 35%, the conservatives 30%, the NDP 25% and the Green 10% (I ignore the bloc for simplicity of numbers). If the House has 305 MPs, the Liberals would sit 107, the Conservatives 92, the NDP 77 and the Green would sit 30, which give 306 because there are no fractioned MPs. Well, the next Parliament will have 306 members. The leaders must now make a formal honorable agreement to go to the elections as a democratic coalition that would represent all Canadians. One week before the election, in every riding the three presidents must evaluate the status of the campaign, and withdraw the two candidates that are rated 2nd and 3rd in the coalition. The Conservatives who are destined to be the Opposition can do whatever they wish with their members. It will not affect the results and, in the example, will fatally get 92 MPs, probably none of them ex ministers, but new comers of the progressive wing of the party that today does not exist.

The coalition is an emergency in the present political circus. It must be a temporary, disciplined association of responsible political entities that go to the House to represent the Canadian people and to honor their electoral commitments by implementing the solutions that deserved the attention and the vote of the electorate. In that coalition the Liberals would have overall responsibility in Foreign Affairs, Trade, Defense, in ensuring the fiscal equality among provinces and territories, and would manage the standards of excellence of Medicare, Social Services and Education. The members in the Coalition are: 107 + 77 +30 = 214, and their percentages at the interior of the group are 50% liberal ministers, 36% NDP Ministers and 14% Green Ministers. The coalition must remain united and bonded until all the electoral promises have been implemented. After that, the parties may recover their independence if they so wish because the Coalition was temporary necessary to rescue the Nation from the catastrophe of Harper.

I am sure that the three political parties of this mythical coalition may think that I am dreaming in Technicolor. Those politicians in the three parties that could be considered statespersons may appreciate that either the political parties discipline themselves in a democratic coalition accountable to the electorate, or they will ruin the future by allowing the fraud of Harper to continue as cynically as is being paraded today. This is the only solution that will sustain the proposals of Mr. Danny Williams. Politicians must cut themselves to size: Global Warming demands statespersons. The demagogues of all the political parties in Canada (that are too many) are now a vanishing species.

You must all retain that the catastrophic political emergency is real as long as Harper is permitted to expand the fraud of his Government and that there is still time to approve in the House an electoral law that will give Canada proportional representation.

Respectfully,

Jorge Torrealba,

Halifax, NS.

Cc: The Three Leaders,

Mr. Danny Williams, NL Premier,

Presidents of the three political parties.

[flaquisimo]

I believe that the next election will make or break Canada. The opposition parties must be responsible to all electors and asure us that they will wipe out the regime of Harper, owned by G.W. Bush who is a puppet of the multinationals that created global warming and polution that is poisoning the planet. To that effect, I have sent a suggestion to the three leaders of the national democratic parties which I paste here for all members comments:

Secretariat of Mr. Dion, with pertinent copies.

Respected Leaders of the Liberal, NDP and Green Parties,

Mr. Danny Williams, Hon NL Premier, has been eloquent in persuading most Canadian electors that in the next election the conservatives must be expelled from Parliament, because of their betrayal of Canada and of the rights of all Canadians. The majority favorable to contain the present conservative fraud is evident in every community, even if the corporate press hides the polls that demonstrate that the conservatives are around 10 points below the Liberals on the grass roots of the electorate.

The adoption of a Democratic electoral system of proportional representation will facilitate the objectives to:

1) Elect Mr. Dion as the Prime Minister because he is honest, has solutions for the problems and is capable to act and take decisions,

2) Give proportional representation in Parliament to the other democratic parties, the NDP and the Green, as members of the governing coalition, and

3) Give the Conservatives the Opposition with the number of MPs that corresponds exactly to the lowest percentage that they will receive in the next election.

The Opposition today which is presently a majority not counting the Bloc could pass a reform to the electoral system of Canada and achieve proportional representation in the House of Commons. There are many formulas existing in advanced democracies and the coalition of Liberals, NDPs and Greens could adopt the simplest which is the national percentage must be reflected in the final structure of the House.

For instance, in the next election nationally the Liberals may obtain 35%, the conservatives 30%, the NDP 25% and the Green 10% (I ignore the bloc for simplicity of numbers). If the House has 305 MPs, the Liberals would sit 107, the Conservatives 92, the NDP 77 and the Green would sit 30, which give 306 because there are no fractioned MPs. Well, the next Parliament will have 306 members. The leaders must now make a formal honorable agreement to go to the elections as a democratic coalition that would represent all Canadians. One week before the election, in every riding the three presidents must evaluate the status of the campaign, and withdraw the two candidates that are rated 2nd and 3rd in the coalition. The Conservatives who are destined to be the Opposition can do whatever they wish with their members. It will not affect the results and, in the example, will fatally get 92 MPs, probably none of them ex ministers, but new comers of the progressive wing of the party that today does not exist.

The coalition is an emergency in the present political circus. It must be a temporary, disciplined association of responsible political entities that go to the House to represent the Canadian people and to honor their electoral commitments by implementing the solutions that deserved the attention and the vote of the electorate. In that coalition the Liberals would have overall responsibility in Foreign Affairs, Trade, Defense, in ensuring the fiscal equality among provinces and territories, and would manage the standards of excellence of Medicare, Social Services and Education. The members in the Coalition are: 107 + 77 +30 = 214, and their percentages at the interior of the group are 50% liberal ministers, 36% NDP Ministers and 14% Green Ministers. The coalition must remain united and bonded until all the electoral promises have been implemented. After that, the parties may recover their independence if they so wish because the Coalition was temporary necessary to rescue the Nation from the catastrophe of Harper.

I am sure that the three political parties of this mythical coalition may think that I am dreaming in Technicolor. Those politicians in the three parties that could be considered statespersons may appreciate that either the political parties discipline themselves in a democratic coalition accountable to the electorate, or they will ruin the future by allowing the fraud of Harper to continue as cynically as is being paraded today. This is the only solution that will sustain the proposals of Mr. Danny Williams. Politicians must cut themselves to size: Global Warming demands statespersons. The demagogues of all the political parties in Canada (that are too many) are now a vanishing species.

You must all retain that the catastrophic political emergency is real as long as Harper is permitted to expand the fraud of his Government and that there is still time to approve in the House an electoral law that will give Canada proportional representation.

Respectfully,

Jorge Torrealba,

Halifax, NS.

Cc: The Three Leaders,

Mr. Danny Williams, NL Premier,

Presidents of the three political parties.