Dion

[Michael Bluth]

I can't recall that being a matter of confidence or that this was propping up the government, do you?

Yet again your analysis is very selective. Failure on such a critical vote so early in the Government's term would have surely been a death warrant. As you conveniently forgot to provide. Here is support. Link

Matter of confidence? No. Propping up the Government. Aboslutely yes. The Liberals got badly outmanouvered on that one. THankfully it was a shortly lived alliance.

Edited August 6, 2007 by Michael Bluth

[jdobbin]

Yup. Yet again your memory is faulty. Convenient memory you have.

You have evidence it was a vote of confidence?

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...60517/20060517/

MPs narrowly passed a motion to extend Canada's mission in Afghanistan by two years in a 149-145 vote in the House of Commons.

However, Prime Minister Stephen Harper said Wednesday he would have continued Canada's military mission in Afghanistan for one year if opposition MPs voted down the extension.

"What we would do is proceed cautiously for a year," Harper told the House. "If we have to go further beyond that, we would seek a mandate from the Canadian people."

Harper certainly didn't think it was a confidence vote. He said that if he lost the vote, he was going to continue governing.

[Michael Bluth]

I was in the midst of editing my post. Here is what I said. Deal with the substance instead of tap dancing around the matter.

Matter of confidence? No. Propping up the Government. Aboslutely yes. The Liberals got badly outmanouvered on that one. THankfully it was a shortly lived alliance.

[Michael Bluth]

You have evidence it was a vote of confidence?

None. Were the Liberals propping up the Government? Absolutely.

[Michael Bluth]

I can't recall that being a matter of confidence or that this was propping up the government, do you?

It was absolutely propping up the Government. Got the part after the or.

[jdobbin]

It was absolutely propping up the Government. Got the part after the or.

Since Harper said he would continue regardless of the vote, it is hardly propping up the government. Propping it up is when confidence is on the line.

[Michael Bluth]

Since Harper said he would continue regardless of the vote, it is hardly propping up the government. Propping it up is when confidence is on the line.

Really? But 17 minutes ago you took pains to differentiate between the two.

I can't recall that being a matter of confidence or that this was propping up the government, do you?

Were you wrong in post 25 or post 31?

Is it really hard to be consistent over a 17 minute time span?

[jdobbin]

Really? But 17 minutes ago you took pains to differentiate between the two.

Were you wrong in post 25 or post 31?

Is it really hard to be consistent over a 17 minute time span?

Sorry you are so confused by it.

[Michael Bluth]

Sorry you are so confused by it.

There's no confusion. You go back to threads weeks and weeks ago questioning why every post somebody makes isn't 100% consistent. Yet you contradict yourself within 20 minutes.

I'm not confused at all about the apparent contradictions and double-standard. I accept it.

[jdobbin]

There's no confusion. You go back to threads weeks and weeks ago questioning why every post somebody makes isn't 100% consistent. Yet you contradict yourself within 20 minutes.

I'm not confused at all about the apparent contradictions and double-standard. I accept it.

I think double standard is criticizingly sexism in one thread and making a sexist remark in another but that just me.

[Michael Bluth]

I think double standard is criticizingly sexism in one thread and making a sexist remark in another but that just me.

You prove double standard by your actions. Good work dobbin.

-----End of dobbin's personal sparing partner for the night. -----

Dion has been an incredibly weak leader of the Liberals. He has served longer without becoming Prime Minister than any other leader since Wilfred Laurier.

The LPoC's historical advantage as the premier party in Canada in terms of organization still hasn't been returned eight months after taking power.

He has difficuilties in communicating in the primary official language of three out of every four Canadians.

He is vilified in his own province and holding back the Liberals from taking the lead in opinion polls.

[jdobbin]

You prove double standard by your actions. Good work dobbin.

I thought that might end the sparring. Still no comment on the sexist post?

[Michael Bluth]

I'm trying to make some valid points here. But somebody keeps trying to hijack the thread.

In the interest of keepoing this thread open for everybody I'll re-post.

Dion has been an incredibly weak leader of the Liberals. He has served longer without becoming Prime Minister than any other leader since Wilfred Laurier.

The LPoC's historical advantage as the premier party in Canada in terms of organization still hasn't been returned eight months after taking power.

He has difficuilties in communicating in the primary official language of three out of every four Canadians.

He is vilified in his own province and holding back the Liberals from taking the lead in opinion polls.

[jdobbin]

I'm trying to make some valid points here. But somebody keeps trying to hijack the thread.

In the interest of keepoing this thread open for everybody I'll re-post.

Think this is a diversion from answering questions on sexist posts but whatever.

[jbg]

Think this is a diversion from answering questions on sexist posts but whatever.

Why not address the merits?

[jdobbin]

Why not address the merits?

I think it is irrelevant about how long Dion has to wait to be prime minister in regards to the Laurier remark. And if that is the standard by which comparisons are made, then Dion is in good company. He should be so lucky.

The Liberal organization still needs work. By mid-spring, however, they had the Tories on the defensive. So much so that Harper is thinking of proroguing Parliament rather than picking up where he left off. The organizational make-over is probably no less time than when Harper was in Opposition.

As far as language skills go, he is much better than he was even back in January. Harper, as many have pointed out, took a while to be able to speak in public so that he didn't sound like an academic.

The unpopularity that is mentioned in regards to Quebec can't be that bad: The Liberals are second place in the polls there.

Now, having answered that, I still think this is a diversion in regards to someone who has avoided answering the question of a sexist post over various threads.

[Michael Bluth]

I think it is irrelevant about how long Dion has to wait to be prime minister in regards to the Laurier remark. And if that is the standard by which comparisons are made, then Dion is in good company. He should be so lucky.

The Liberal organization still needs work. By mid-spring, however, they had the Tories on the defensive. So much so that Harper is thinking of proroguing Parliament rather than picking up where he left off. The organizational make-over is probably no less time than when Harper was in Opposition.

As far as language skills go, he is much better than he was even back in January. Harper, as many have pointed out, took a while to be able to speak in public so that he didn't sound like an academic.

The unpopularity that is mentioned in regards to Quebec can't be that bad: The Liberals are second place in the polls there.

Dion won't get the 8 plus years as leader without becoming PM that Laurier got. He won't be so lucky.

The Tories proroguing Parliament is an expected move of a Government presenting a new agenda to Canadians.

The comment about Harper needs to be clarified a little. Are you referring to Harper speaking English or French? As an MP? As CA leader? As PM?

Again with a mischaracterization of polls? Here are the results from the last three National polls that were released with regional breakdowns.

Ipsos-Reid July 27th Liberals and CPC *tied* for second at 23% Link

Angus Reid Strategies July 12th. CPC second at 27% Liberals 3rd at 16%. Link

Environics July 10th. CPC second at 28% and Liberals 3rd at 17%. Link.

So don't see any polls with the Liberals in second in Quebec. One outlier.

But I thank you for the mischaracterization. I would have missed that Environics poll otherwise. Which is surprisingly good news for the Conservatives in Quebec.

[jdobbin]

Dion won't get the 8 plus years as leader without becoming PM that Laurier got. He won't be so lucky.

The Tories proroguing Parliament is an expected move of a Government presenting a new agenda to Canadians.

The comment about Harper needs to be clarified a little. Are you referring to Harper speaking English or French? As an MP? As CA leader? As PM?

Again with a mischaracterization of polls? Here are the results from the last three National polls that were released with regional breakdowns.

Ipsos-Reid July 27th Liberals and CPC *tied* for second at 23% Link

Angus Reid Strategies July 12th. CPC second at 27% Liberals 3rd at 16%. Link

Environics July 10th. CPC second at 28% and Liberals 3rd at 17%. Link.

So don't see any polls with the Liberals in second in Quebec. One outlier.

But I thank you for the mischaracterization. I would have missed that Environics poll otherwise. Which is surprisingly good news for the Conservatives in Quebec.

I stand corrected. The Liberals are tied with the Tories in Quebec as of this past week.

http://www.ipsos-na.com/news/pressrelease.cfm?id=3588

The Bloc Quebecois has dropped 2% points nationally, receiving the support of 8% of Canadians, or 33% of Quebecers, which represents a decline of 4% points within that province. However, the Liberals and the Conservatives still trail the Bloc in Quebec, but are tied at 23% support—a 5% point gain for the Liberals, and a modest rebound of 2% for the Tories.

The last Decima poll in mid-June had the Liberals ahead nationally and in Quebec.

http://www.decima.com/en/pdf/news_releases/070613E.pdf

Not too bad after all the spending announcements made by the Tories in Quebec.

As far as speaking style, Harper was still struggling in 2005 in both languages when it came to public speaking.

Still no answer on your sexist post?

Edited August 6, 2007 by jdobbin

[Michael Bluth]

The last Decima poll in mid-June had the Liberals ahead nationally and in Quebec.

As far as speaking style, Harper was still struggling in 2005 in both languages when it came to public speaking.

So what exactly is the value of a poll older from mid-June that contradicts the four other polls we posted collectively? It all proves that Dion is pretty unpopular in Quebec despite being a native son. I can't remember the last time a Liberal or Tory leader came from Quebec and his party didn't command a strong lead in the province for at least some point during the leader's tenure. Even PM PM did that.

Your claim of Harper struggling in 2005 is based on the implicit understanding that he no longer struggles if I am reading you correctly. So Dion's only chance to win requires a gift from the Gods a la the Troops in our Streets-Beer and Popcorn-Income Trust cluster f*ck that was the Liberal campaign in 2006? Do your really think Stephen Harper will allow that many mistakes in the next campaign?

Dion is still leading the weakest Liberal Party of Canada in terms of organization for the last 50 years. It seems as if they have no ability to react to the new realities of campaign finacing as introduced by Jean Chretien.

As for prorogation. It's a perfectly logical move by the Conservatives. And actually using the parliamentary move as it is constitutionally intended.

[jdobbin]

So what exactly is the value of a poll older from mid-June that contradicts the four other polls we posted collectively? It all proves that Dion is pretty unpopular in Quebec despite being a native son. I can't remember the last time a Liberal or Tory leader came from Quebec and his party didn't command a strong lead in the province for at least some point during the leader's tenure. Even PM PM did that.

Your claim of Harper struggling in 2005 is based on the implicit understanding that he no longer struggles if I am reading you correctly. So Dion's only chance to win requires a gift from the Gods a la the Troops in our Streets-Beer and Popcorn-Income Trust cluster f*ck that was the Liberal campaign in 2006? Do your really think Stephen Harper will allow that many mistakes in the next campaign?

Dion is still leading the weakest Liberal Party of Canada in terms of organization for the last 50 years. It seems as if they have no ability to react to the new realities of campaign finacing as introduced by Jean Chretien.

As for prorogation. It's a perfectly logical move by the Conservatives. And actually using the parliamentary move as it is constitutionally intended.

Your Environics poll came in the same timeframe as the Decima one.

The very latest poll says the Liberals are tied for the first time in an Ipsos Poll for the first time since Dion became leader. It would appear that the Liberals are making headway.

They probably could have adjusted to the Chretien proposal on financing. They are having a tougher time on further Tory reductions to a thousand dollars per person.

Still no answer on your sexist post?

[Michael Bluth]

Your Environics poll came in the same timeframe as the Decima one.

The very latest poll says the Liberals are tied for the first time in an Ipsos Poll for the first time since Dion became leader. It would appear that the Liberals are making headway.

They probably could have adjusted to the Chretien proposal on financing. They are having a tougher time on further Tory reductions to a thousand dollars per person.

The Environics poll is dated 2 plus weeks later than the Decima one.

One poll says the Liberals are tied, but you said polls earlier. A tacit admission of your mischaracerization methinks.

A personal limit of $1,000 in politcal contributions to a party in a year is reasonable in the eyes of most Canadians. If the party can't adapt something has to change. The leader would be as logical a place as any.

[jdobbin]

The Environics poll is dated 2 plus weeks later than the Decima one.

One poll says the Liberals are tied, but you said polls earlier. A tacit admission of your mischaracerization methinks.

A personal limit of $1,000 in politcal contributions to a party in a year is reasonable in the eyes of most Canadians. If the party can't adapt something has to change. The leader would be as logical a place as any.

The Environics poll was taken from June 5 to 30. The Decima poll was taken in the middle of that. Look it up if you like.

The National Post and Globe and Mail think the lower limit opens itself up to abuse. The Tories refuse to close a loophole that allows people to donate an amount of money to each candidate breaking the spirit of the law. Seems the Tories have found a way to circumvent the law since they are the only ones found to have done this.

You didn't even mention the Decima poll so what does that say about your mischaracterization.

No thoughts on your sexist post?

Edited August 6, 2007 by jdobbin

[Michael Bluth]

The Environics poll was taken from June 5 to 30. The Decima poll was taken in the middle of that. Look it up if you like.

The National Post and Globe and Mail think the lower limit opens itself up to abuse. The Tories refuse to close a loophole that allows people to donate an amount of money to each candidate breaking the spirit of the law. Seems the Tories have found a way to circumvent the law since they are the only ones found to have done this.

Still makes the Environics poll more recent.

How does the lower limit open itself up to abuse? How does this justify Dion's inability to guide the LPoC to raise money or organize itself?

[jdobbin]

Still makes the Environics poll more recent.

How does the lower limit open itself up to abuse? How does this justify Dion's inability to guide the LPoC to raise money or organize itself?

No, it makes the Environics poll earlier and later.

The lower limit opens itself to abuse because certain people try to violate the maximum they can give by spreading it around to various candidates. The Tories refuse to close that loophole. The Globe and Mail called the lower limit unreasonable and leaves itself open to this type of abuse.

Dion has to reform a party that has depended on larger donations. We'll have to see if he succeeds with the various planned events that are scheduled to take place.

Still no word on your sexist post?

[August1991]

Dion won't get the 8 plus years as leader without becoming PM that Laurier got. He won't be so lucky.

I agree, and that's a telling point of modern federal Liberals.

Harper and Dion ressemble each other, and many criticisms of both show this. Harper lost an election and yet he got another chance. I hope the federal Liberals let Dion have a second chance too.