July figures for Palestinian Casualites by IDF

[buffycat]

If systematic obliteration of a people is 'genocide', and Israel has not only denied the existence of a Palestinian-people, but also openly adopted a policy of ethnic-cleansing, isn't that a systematic and calculated obliteration of a people?

Hello Gravitas,

I would say it certainly, beyond a shadow of a doubt does qualify for ethnic cleansing and perhaps even genocide as well (if one include the systematic murder of all members of Palestinian villages in 48 - Dier Yassin comes to mind, yet there were many others).

The Palestinians are a resiliant peoples, the adverse conditions which they have endured now for over 60 years is unimaginable for most of us (thankfully).

If genocide means wiping out the race entirely, with no living members left - then certainly as Rue says it can't really be genocide - but then what can (outside of some groups of South Florida Natives who no longer exist - ie extinct). But genocide does not have to kill everyone, there are survivors. Perhaps a nice little definition would do for Rue:

The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:

1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and

2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide."

BTW -Welcome to the board.

[M.Dancer]

http://www.imemc.org/

Hate site. No different than Stormfront.

[buffycat]

Hate site. No different than Stormfront.

hahahahahahaahhahahahahah

YOU have got to be kidding me!

Man you are really full of it today eh? Where's your old tagline? You know the one which had the very descriptive swearword in it?

Man you really don't know what a hate site is do you?

[M.Dancer]

Man you really don't know what a hate site is do you?

Not as well as you, no. But I don't troll the net looking for the stuff. None the less, I know it when I see it.

[White Doors]

Claiming that Israel is perpetuating in GENOCIDE and still get's in a huff when she is rightly called an anti-semite?

At least have the decency to have thick skin. You are perpetuating in classic anti-semetic behaviour.

To claim otherwise is foolhardy.

At least have the courage of your convictions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#...he_21st_century

[Rue]

ACCUSATIONS OF GENOCIDE AGAINST ISRAEL

"Ethnic cleansing" has been loosely used by Buffy and Higgly in their alleged mission to tell the truth about Israel. They provide a classic example of how the term is misappropriated and subjectively used. The fact that it is continually used by people like Higgly to describe nay political action they object to shows how misused the phrase has become.

In fact the same Jewish settlers Higgly would be quick to call illegal on the West Bank feel they have been the victims of ethnic cleansing and have had their land rights in Judea and Somaria illegally seized from them. Under international law the actual land of the West Bank is yet to be defined as belonging to anyone. The term ethnic cleansing is being used when-ever someone feels they have to evacuate for any reason.

Examples of ethnic cleansing would be the holocaust, or Armenian massacre or what was done to the aboriginals of North or South America or what happened in Serbo-Croatia or Rwanda and Burundi.

The way Higgly abuses the phrase diminishes its seriousness. The most common working definition of ethnic cleansing as found in most dictionaries refers to the systemic elimination of ethnic group or groups from a region or society as by deportation, forced emigration or genocide.

Higgly and Buffy toss the word about knowing it is construed as genocide but then falls back on trying to be ambiguous to play coy. This is precisely the kind of intellectual dishonesty I question. Interestingly in 1992 during the Yugoslavia war the UN General Assembly declared ethnic cleansing to be a form of genocide.

The point is to use the term ethnic cleansing or genocide today has become interchangeable and the way it was used by Higgly and Buffy suggests Jews deliberately exterminate Palestinians and have forced them off land and target them simply because they are Palestinian.

Their use of the phrase is intellectually dishonest because it ignores the 900,000 Jews foreably kicked out of Muslim countries in the 1940’s of whom 700,000 had to move to Israel because they had no where else to go and were never compensated.

In Higgly and Buffy's worlds Palestinians displaced in the war of independence of Israel are solely the cause of Zionists. It has nothing to do with the forced policies of the Arab League which have prevented the descendants of these people from being able to live anywhere else in the Middle East. It ignores the law of return that has been in force since 1954 in Jordan which will grant automatic citizenship to any Palestinian who wishes to return there. It ignores the fact that no Jew is allowed to live anywhere in the Middle East other then Israel precisely because of racist dhimmitude laws.

[ScottSA]

Hate site. No different than Stormfront.

Clearly a hate site:

"It seems that there are plans to topple the honor of Palestinian girls in the clutches of the Israeli intelligence through blackmail at checkpoints and military crossings...

One would think from the opening sentence that leering Jews are ganging up on these girls and having their way with them as a matter of course, but it turns out, hidden further along in the bowels of the article, that these alleged abuses are nothing more than women soldiers strip searching suspected bombers.

Couple that with the language, reminiscent of the imagery of Nazi propaganda... "clutches of...Israeli secret service..." , "topple the honor..."

That is exactly the imagery used by Goebbels to cast the Jew as a fat and sinister rat preying on the honor of pure German women.

http://www.imemc.org/article/49215

And that's just the first article I read.

It's a hate site through and through.

[Rue]

I wish to address the myth perpetuated by Higgly and Buffy that today's Palestinian conflict is simply the result of Jews displacing Palestinians.

This yth is compounded when people like Buffy who clearly have no clue of the history of the Middle East lecture people to rely on people like Benny Morris exposed for his intellectual dishonesty and inaccuracy to find out what happened.

Here are the facts that repudiate Higgly and Buffy;s continued misrepresentations that Jews forced Palestinians out of Palestine.

Abu Mazen, stated in an article entitled "Madha `Alamna wa-Madha Yajib An Na`mal" [What We Have Learned and What We Should Do], published in "Falastin eth-Thawra" [Revolutionary Palestine], the official journal of the PLO, Beirut, in March 1976, and I quote,

"The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland...The Arab States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people."

Khaled al-`Azm, the Prime Minister of Syria in 1948 and 1949, wrote in his memoirs published in Beirut, 1973 that the reasons for the Arab failure to defeat Jews in 1948 was as a result of and I quote,

"the call by the Arab Governments to the inhabitants of Palestine to evacuate it and to leave for the bordering Arab countries, after having sown terror among them...Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave...We have brought destruction upon a million Arab refugees, by calling upon them and pleading with them to leave their land, their homes, their work and business..." (Part 1, pp. 386-387).

Harry C. Stebbens, a civil servant in the British Mandatory Government in Palestine in 1947-48, wrote in the London Evening Standard on Friday, 10 January, 1969 and I quote:

"Long before the end of the British mandate, between January and April, 48, practically all my Arab Palestinian staff of some 200 men and women and all of the 1800 labor force had left Haifa in spite of every possible effort to assure them of their safety if they stayed. They all left for one or more of the following reasons:

"1. The Arab terrorism engendered by the November, 1947, U.N. partition resolution frightened them to death of their imaginative souls and they feared Jewish retaliation.

"2. Propagandists promised a blood bath as soon as the mandate ended in

which the street of all the cities would run with blood.

"3. The promised invasion by the foreign Arab armies (which started on May 14, 1948, with the Arab Legion massacre of some 200 Jewish settlers at Kfar Etzion) was preceded by extensive broadcasts from Cairo, Damascus, Amman, and Beirut to the effect that any Arabs who stayed would be hanged as collaborators with the Jews.

It is true that the massacre of Deir Yassin (always quoted by the Arabs) caused some of the refugees. But the massacre of Kfar Etzion, the massacre of the hospital convoy which killed 48 Jewish doctors and nurses, the continued shelling and blasting of Jewish settlement for more than 20 years, has not caused one single Israeli to move away. They sit tight and if necessary in their shelters while across the river, where the shooting comes from, the towns and villages are deserted, last year's crops still rot on the trees and the refugees move still further away from any trouble.

Jamal Husseini, who was the head of the Palestine Higher Committee, advised the Security Council on 23 April 1948,

"we have never concealed the fact that we began the fighting."

It is public record that on September 6 1949, in the Beirut Telegraph, Emile Ghoury, Secretary of the Palestine Higher Committee, stated and I quote:

"The fact that there are these refugees (Palestinians) is the direct consequence of the act of the Arab States in opposing partition and the Jewish State."

In the The Jordan daily newspaper Falastin, dated February 19, 1949: the newspaper stated and I quote,

"The Arab States which had encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies, have failed to keep their promises to help these refugees."

As late as 12 October 1963, In the Cairo daily dated October 12, 1963, journalist Akhbar el-Yom, stated:

"15 May 1948 arrived...on that very day the Mufti of Jerusalem appealed to the Arabs of Palestine to leave the country, because the Arab armies were about to enter and fight in their stead..."

Public records show that a British police report to Jerusalem Headquarters dated April 16 1948 stated:

"Every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab population to

stay and carry on with their normal lives..."

In is a public fact that on April 17 1948, in Haifa, the Arab National Committee refused to sign a truce, and it recorded its rejection in a memorandum to the Arab League Governments which states and I quote;

"when the delegation entered the conference room it proudly refused to sign the truce and asked that the evacuation of the Arab population and their transfer to neighboring Arab countries be facilitated...The military and civil authorities and the Jewish representatives expressed their profound regret. The mayor of Haifa (Mr. Shabtai Levi) adjourned the meeting with a passionate appeal to the Arab population to reconsider its decision..."

In an editorial in the Haifa Arab newspaper Ash Sha’ab, dated January 30, 1948, it reported and I quote;

"The first group of our fifth columnists consists of those who abandon their houses and business and go to live elsewhere... At the first sign of trouble they take to their heels to escape sharing the burden of struggle."

The London Times reported in its paper on May 5, 1948;

"The Arab streets are curiously deserted and, evidently following the poor example of the more moneyed class there has been an exodus from Jerusalem too, though not to the same extent as in Jaffa and Haifa."

The Greek Catholic Bishopp, George Hakim stated in the Beirut newspaper Sada al Janub on August 16, 1948 that and I quote;

"The refugees were confident that their absence would not last long, and that they would return within a week or two. Their leaders had promised them that the Arab Armies would crush the "Zionist gangs" very quickly and that there was no need for panic or fear of a long

The Economist reported on October 2, 1948 and I quote;

"Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit... It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."

In an editorial in Falastin dated Feb.1 9, 1949, the paper stated and I quote;

"The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies."

The Near East Arabic Broadcasting Station on April 3, 1949 from Cyprus stated;

"It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa, and Jerusalem."

Kenneth Bilby an American journalist stated in his book New Star in the New East, New York, 1950 on page 30-31 and I quote;

"The Arab exodus, initially at least, was encouraged by many Arab leaders, such as Haj Amin el Husseni, the exiled pro-Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, and by the Arab Higher Committee for Palestine. They viewed the first wave of Arab setbacks as merely transitory. Let the Palestine Arabs flee into neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab peoples to greater effort, and when the Arab invasion struck, the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with the property of Jews driven into the sea."

Here are the words of Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, quoted by Nimr El Hawari, former commander of the Palestine Arab Youth Organization in Hawari’s book, “ Sir Am Nakbah ” dated 1952 and published in Nazareth;

"We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down."

Edward Atiyah, Secretary of the Arab League office stated in the 1955 text published in Londo, entitled “ The Arabs” on page 183 that and I quote;

"This wholesale exodus was due partly to the belief of the Arabs, encouraged by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab press and the irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab States and the Palestinian Arabs enabled to re-enter and retake possession of their country."

Again Emil Ghoury, Secretary of the Arab Higher Committee stated in the Daily Telegraph of Beirut on Sept. 6, 1948 and I quote;

"I do not want to impugn anybody but only to help the refugees. The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the action of the Arab States in opposing partition and the Jewish State. The Arab States agreed upon this policy unanimously and they must share in the solution of the problem."

Habib Issa in the US published Lebanese newspaper Al Hoda on June 8, 1951 stated and I quote;

"The Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade... He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean... Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes, and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down."

Here are the words of a Palestinian refugee quoted in Ad Difaa a Jordanian daily newspaper on September 6, 1954;

"The Arab governments told us: get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in."

So Higgly can slur all Israelis as psychopaths and Buffy can pretend none of the above exists and the Arab League has nothing to do with the Palestinian problem but some of us unlike Higgly and Buffy read and try learn from what we read.

[Rue]

Hereis a response to Higgly’s comments suggesting all Zionists Are European;

The fact is in the 1940’s to mid 1950’s 900,000 Jews from Middle Eastern Muslim countries were forcefully expelled and had all their property confiscated forcing 700,000 of them to have to come to Israel where today they and their descendants make up over 50% of the Israeli population.

Interestingly when Higgly accuses Israel of ethnic cleansing he ignores this actual example of how people were forced from their homes simply because of their ethnicity.

Many Israelis are from Ethiopia, North America and South America. A large group came from the Soviet Union.

More to the point Jews have lived continuously in Israel for 3,700 years including the majority of inhabitants of Jerusalem who have been Jewish and constituted the majority since the 1840’s.

The slur Higgly engages in tries to paint all Jews who came to Israel as being Europeans because this would suggest they were outsiders or foreigners and plays to the inference that Palestinians are not.

This is typical of the lack of intellectual integrity I question in Higgly. In fact the vast majority of Muslims who came to live in Palestine came from outside the region and they were encouraged to flood the area through a deliberate British policy that restricted immigration of Jews to Palestine while encouraging Muslims to come from outside the area to settle there.

In Higgly’s slur, he ignores that 80% of Palestine was illegally seized by the British contrary to the League of Nations mandate and turned into a Muslim state which then welcomed Muslims from outside the area but forbid Jews from living within TransJordan.

[Rue]

Here is a response to Higgly's allegations that Jews stole land from Palestinians;

In another slur Higgly uses to impugn all Jews and not just Israelis or Zionists (terms he deliberately uses interchangeably in his slurs) he repeatedly suggests Jews stole land from Palestinians.

This slur flows from the ancient anti-semitic stereotype that Jews are dishonest, can not be trusted to engage in fair business transactions and engage themselves in deliberate conspiracies to cheat people out of what rightfully is theirs.

The stereotype has been used for centuries so now its latest version used by Higgly to smeer Jews who bought land in Palestine is just yet another example of how it is used.

The public historic record which exists today in the registry system shows ,the purchase dates of deeds of land by Jews from Muslims.

What both Muslim and Jewish history books whow is that when Jews came to Palestine they first purchased land Arabs did not want, i.e., they purchased uncultivated desert or malaria infested swamps. They in fact only began purchasing cultivate land many years later.

In the Hope-Simpson Report conducted by Britain’s John Hope Simpson written based on his may 1930 observations to the British government he stated on p. 51 of that report which is now public domain and anyone can access;

"They [Jews] paid high prices for the land, and in addition they paid to certain of the occupants of those lands a considerable amount of money which they were not legally bound to pay."

It is also a fact in 1931, Lewis French on behalf of the British government, completed a survey of landlessness in Palestine and offered new land plots to ANY Arab who had been alleged to have been "dispossessed" by Jews.

Pursuant to that offer, British officials received more than 3,000 applications, and then ruled 80 percent of them were invalid on the grounds that the applications were not in fact landless just seeking to get land. According to the information which is now public domain, Britain determined there to be 600 landless Arabs, of which 100 exercised their option to get land for free.

My comments can be referenced at; Avneri, pp. 149-158; Cohen, p. 37; based on the Report on Agricultural Development and Land Settlement in Palestine by Lewis French, (December 1931, Supplementary; Report, April 1932) and material submitted to the Palestine Royal Commission.

In Higgly’s slurs, no Jew bought any land fairly. They simply engaged in dishonest conspiracies and stole the land.

Today’s revisionists like Higgly and Buffy claim that the Arabs were displaced by Jews but this does not match the actual historic facts. The historic documents now available show from the beginning of World War I, part of Palestine's land was owned by absentee landlords who lived in Cairo, Damascus and Beirut and almost 80 percent of the Palestinian Arabs were debt ridden peasants, seminomads and Bedouins.

They were unable to own anything.

There is a 1946, British Mandate Government surveyof land, ownership in Palestine which shows the following;

70% of Palestine was “owned” by the British government, in trust for a Jewish National Homeland;

8.6% was in fact owned by Jews

3.3% was in fact owned by resident Arabs

16.5% owned by non-resident Arabs.

In another misrepresentation Higgly suggests the lands of Palestine have always belonged to Muslims.

In fact Palestine which consisted of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, the West Bank and Israel was never a Muslim nation.

The vast majority of its inhabitants were poor subsistence nomads who roamed with goats.

The Ottoman Empire which administered the area was an absentee landlord .

Palestine was mostly empty and consisted of desert and malaria infested swamps. It was simply the way you went from Cairo on to Damascus or via Jerusalem to the rest of the Middle East.

What Higgly is well aware of from reading any history book, is that in the 1920s, among their final acts as victors in World War I, the British and French created the states that now define the Middle East. Britain illegally and unilaterally created Jordan and Iraq and France did the same with Lebanon and Syria.

Public historic documents indicate the British approached the League of Nations and said if it was allowed to administer the Middle East, it would carry out the League of Nations mandate to create a Jewish state in Palestine. The League of Nations Mandate was to create a Jewish state in what is today, Jordan, Israel and the West Bank and portions of Lebanon and Syria. The original League Mandate and its reference to the Jewish homeland is public record.

So is the fact thatin 1921 the British illegally seized 80 percent of the Mandate, east of the Jordan River, and created the Arab kingdom of “Transjordan.” for the Arabian monarch King Abdullah, who had been defeated in tribal warfare in the Arabian Peninsula and lacked a seat of power.

Because Abudllah’s tribe was Hashemite, they called it the Hashemite Kingdom but the coat of arms of the country makes clear reference to it being a Palestinian state and the majority of its population have always been Palestinians and since 1954 it has a law of return allowing any Palestinian descendant to become a Jordanian citizen while forbidding Jews from living in Jordan.

No Arab country allows citizenship to Jews.

In fact just before World War Two broke out, the League was about to confront Britain for having violated the League mandate and in fact dissolve TransJordan when the war intervened.

What is today Israel and the West Bank is what is left of the original Palestine Mandate – between the west bank of the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea . Jews have lived in this area continuously for 3,700 years and yes even after the Romans destroyed the kingdom of Judea in AD 70. Arabs would become the majority in the area in the 7th century AD.

If one looks at the historic records of 1878, harsh political and claimate conditions forced many groups to immigrate to Palestine including Circassians, Algerians, Egyptians, Druses, Turks, Kurds, Bosnians, and many others.

Historic records show about 141,000 sMuslims living in all of Palestine (all areas) in 1882, of which at least 25% of those Muslims being foreigner who arrived after 1831 from the Egyptian conquest. (source: Ernst Frankenstine, Justice for my people, London, Nicholson and Watson, 1943 p. 127).

In fact of 75% of the Muslims already there they would have been there less than 150 years and many of these Muslimswere not even Arabs.

The largest Arab immigrant clans, i.e., Al-Nashasheebi, Al-Khalidi, and Al-Husseni who settled in Palestine in the late 1800’s were in fact given privileged upper class statuts taking over the lands while the rest of the lower class Muslim "Falaheen" were simply exploited as cheap labour.

[Rue]

THE HIGGLY MYTH JEWS EXPLOITED PALESTINIANS

H

Historic records show the Jewish population in Palestine increased by 470,000 between World War I and World War II while the non-Jewish population rose by 588,000.

This rapid growth was a result of several factors none having to do with Jews being evil as Higgly infers.

Immigration from neighboring states by Muslims constituted 37 percent of the total immigration to pre-state

Israel and they came because the economic activities by Jews increased the standard of living which in turn attracted them seeking opportunities.

Arabs came looking for both jobs and improved living conditions created by the Jews as they drained malarial swamps and brought improved sanitation and health care to the region.

In fact te Muslim infant mortality rate fell from 201 per thousand in 1925 to 94 per thousand in 1945 and life expectancy rose from 37 years in 1926 to 49 in 1943.

Surveys and statistics show that the non-Jewish population increased the most in cities with large Jewish populations. From 1922-1947, the non-Jewish population increased 290 percent in Haifa, 131 percent in Jerusalem and 158 percent in Jaffa.

Contrast that to growth in Arab towns with no Jews where the non Jewish growth was: 42 percent in Nablus, 78 percent in Jenin and 37 percent in Bethlehem.

[Rue]

THE HIGGLY MYTH THAT ISRAEL IS PALESTINE

In Higgly’s misrepresentations the land promised to Jews never existed and Jordan, Lebanon and Syria were not created illegally, they just were always there and we should ignore how they got there.

We are to simply assume Palestine is what Israel and the West Bank is today.

In fact Israel and West Bank consist of 17% of the remaining portion of the mandate promised to Jews. In fact Israel’s 1949 to 1967 border consists of less then one sixth of one percent of the entire Middle East’s geographic area.

In 1948 the UN which inherited the League Mandate now offers Jews a homeland in three small portions of land. In this proposed plan all the rest of the land would be given to the Arabs including all of the West Bank which to Hews constitutes ancient Judea and Somaria. The three slivers of land the Jews were in fact offered were not even connected.

Under this proposal they could have access to Jerusalem but it would be cut off from the threee tiny portions of disconnected land along the Mediterranean Sea. 60% of the land given to the Jews was in fact desert on the Negev.

Despite the fact that the Jews were given less then 10% of the original land promised them by the League of Nations, the Arab League stated they would never agree to any land going to Jews for a country.

In the land designated to the Jews there were 800,000 Arabs and 1.2 million Jews.

It was the Arab League not satisfied with giving up these tiny portions of land who decided to wage a war against the Jews to drive them out. Israel did not start the war.

The Arab League did and in fact the Arab League was led by a British General and the RAF flew alongside the Egyptian Air Force shooting at Jews on the ground.

The activities of the British government to deceive the League of Nations and prevent a Jewish state at all costs is public domain and todaycan be found in the letters of Churchill, Anthony Eden and High Commissioner Samuel.

.

[buffycat]

Rue, you just can't stick to the topic can you?

The title of the thread is Palestinian casualites for the month of July.

NOT the Holocaust or expulsion of Jews from Arab lands. Start your own thread.

Instead of continually dredging up the past, why not attempt at least to talk about the current injustice?

Or is that too difficult for you?

I also find it odd that you seem so disturbed by what Higgly said that you have to continue to attack his character.

WRT Jews fleeing Arab lands, there are various takes on that part of the ordeal. Some did flee - many left due to the promises the pfledgling Israeli state made them: Jobs, housing money etc. Many SOLD their businesses in various Arab lands before they left. Others actually stayed - many of whom still live in countries like Iran who hosts the largest Jewish population outside of Israel in the Mid-East.

Traditionally speaking Jews have faired far better in Muslim lands over the last centuries than in Europe in the last.

All that aside, how does the treatment of Jews have anything to do with the current treatment of the native Palestinian Arabs (both Christian and Muslim alike) which is taking place NOW in Israel?

Care to answer that and stay on topic?

(not holding my breath).

[Rue]

THE REPEATED COMMENT BY HIGGLY THAT ISRAEL IS RACIST AND ZIONISM IS RACIST

Another one of Higgly’s misrepresentations and favourite comments is that Israel is racist.

In fact the Jewish religion’s concept of Jews being a chosen people has nothing to do with racial superiority.

It refers to a responsibility to God, to honour God through forming a nation and worshipping God through the apparatus of the nation and that this nation was to be in Judea and Somaria. That notion is one where one worships through a nation to God. It is no different to Jews needing a nation to worship God, then it is for Christians to need to worship God through Jesus. There being chosen is not seen as a

racial notion but a spiritual obligation..

It is an ancient anti-semitic slur to suggest the word chosen people means Jews think they are more holy or better. Nothing in Judaism teaches its followers they are superior to non Jews and in fact unlike Christians or Muslims, Jews do not force people to convert or define them as going to hell (as Christians do) or infidel (as Muslims do) if people do not worship through Judaism.

Further to this anti-semitic concept which then has been transferred to slur the concept of Zionism as being the imposition of a Jewish race on Muslims and only allowing Jews certain rights Muslims can’t have in Israel, this is completely false.

In fact it is Sharia Law or Dhimmitude which Higgly giggles at repeatedly in his comments , which states Jews and Christians are infidel, are not accepted as being able to tell the truth in court, can not own land, must pay a tax on land unlike Muslims if they do not wish to be attacked, are not allowed the same legal or citizenship rights as Muslims and have to make sure they keep their houses of worship distinct and shorter in height and not discuss their religion with Muslims. Judaism does not have such laws.

What Higgly skips over is that all Palestinians in Israel in 1949 were granted full citizenship but Jews in Muslim countries after 1949 were all expelled with all their property confiscated forcing 700,000 to flee to Israel without compensation while another 200,000 had to flee to their relatives mostly in the US and some in Canada, Australia, South America and Europe.

It is a fact that Arabs in Israel are allowed to own land, vote, elect members to Parliament, have equal access to schools, hospitals, government services, complete and absolute freedom of religion, are not required to serve in the Israeli armed forces,

have Muslim Judges and lawyers in the Israeli legal system and are guaranteed all government services in Arabic.

In reverse, no Jew has any such rights in an Arab state.

It is a fact that Arab states define citizenship solely by native parentage. So this means it is impossible to become a naturalized citizen in most Arab states.

When Higgly slurs Israel and suggests it is racist because becayse it has a law of return for Jews which would grant them automatic citizenship in Israel, he forgets no Jew is allowed to be a citizen of a Muslim country or the above and the fact that Jordan has in fact had a "law of return" since 1950 (it became official in 1954), which guarantees citizenship to all former Muslim-Arab residents of Palestine, EXCEPT for Jews.

Higgly like many anti-semites who pretend they only criticize Zionists when they make their comments in fact slur all Jews when they comment on Zionism being a concept of Jewish superiority, single out Jewish self-determination. This is absolutely false and it blurs what Zionism is with ancient anti-semitic slurs about what Judaism is.

This is why Martin Luther King stated; "When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. you're talking anti-Semitism." People like Higgly are the first to cry victim and claim they can’t criticize Israel without being called anti-semitic, but when they criticize Israel do so using anti-semitic stereotypes about the Jewish religion and try present it as criticism of Zionism.

In Higgly’s responses on this forum he has shown his subjective concepts as to what he thinks Zionism stands for is blurred it with false precepts as to the Jewish religion and this is why I accuse him of anti-semitism, not because he is anti-Zionist, but because he uses false seterotypes and assumptions of Judaism and then presents them as Zionism.

Israel in fact provides the exact same rights to Muslims as it does Jews and Christians born in its country unlike Muslim countries with their non Muslims or in the past and to this day in many Christian countries.

Higgly also simply ignores that for centuries across Europe no Jew was allowed citizenship or if they were, it was not full citizenship and in particular Jews were not allowed to own land, vote or engage in certain practices or businesses. He would also completely ignores the system of apartheid known as dhimmitude which today still has both Jews and Christians living in ghettoes as second class citizens in Muslim countries.

In Higgly’s world there is of course a selective double standard as to who can have a nation and who is racist.

Israel contains about 6.7 million people of which ,1.3 million or 20 percent of the population are non-Jews consisting of 1.1 million Muslims, 130,000 Christians and 100,000 Druze.

Arab Israerlis have equal voting rights. I am waiting for Higgly to tell me which Muslim countries in the Middle East allow its Jews to vote, let alone own land.

There are currently 8 Muslims elected to the 120-seat Isaeli parliament of Knesset.

Interestingly Higgly refers to former Israeli Prime Minister Sharon as a psychopath. This psychopath appointed Salah Tarif a Druze to cabinet and a Muslim to the Supreme Court of Justice of Israel.

There are more than 300,000 Arab children attend Israeli schools.

It is a public fact that in 2002, the Israeli Supreme Court ruled that the government cannot allocate land based on religion or ethnicity, and may not prevent Arab citizens from living wherever they choose.

Since Arab Israelis are not forced to serve serving in the military if they choose not to they do not get military benefits and from a practical point of view they can not get security clearance to work in job sectors that deal with security information.

However in cases where Arabs can not get security clearance for not serving in the military they do end up obtaining the jobs Israelis can’t pursue when on their compulsory call up so it balances out and this is why in industries like construction and trucking in Israel, they are dominated by Israeli Arabs.

This myth Higgly tries to pass off that Zionism is racism was not even shared by the Muslim world when it began to manifest itself in the early 1900’s in the Middle East.

In fact, Emir Faisal the forefather of today’s Saudi Arabian Royal family and father of Prince Abdullah given Transjordan by the British (as well this man’s other son was given Iraq by the British) regarded Zionism as a companion to the Arab nationalist movement, and saw Zionists as a natural ally to fight against imperialism.

This is why he wrote in a letter to Harvard law professor and future Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter on March 3, 1919, one day after Chaim Weizmann presented the Zionist case to the Paris conference that;

“The Arabs, especially the educated among us, look with deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement....We will wish the Jews a hearty welcome home....We are working together for a reformed and revised Near East and our two movements complete one another. The Jewish movement is nationalist and not imperialist. And there is room in Syria for us both. Indeed, I think that neither can be a real success without the other”.

Reference to all of the above can be found inl Samuel Katz, Battleground-Fact and Fantasy in Palestine, (NY: Bantam Books, 1977), p. 55.

So this b.s. Higgly tries to promote that Zionism is anti-Arab or anti-Palestinian is pure b.s.

Zionism is not one simple concept. It can refer to the spiritual concept of believing Jews are obliged to honour God by worshipping him through a state organ called Israel as defined by the Bible as Judea and Somaria, or it can be a socialist one that has nothing to do with religion and simply believed Jews needed a state of their own to escape persecution. In either concept, there is no reference to racial superiority or having more rights then anyone else or being more pure.

Judaism does not define non believers as infidels as Islam does. Judaism does not have a Sharia law system that condifies apartheid and treats non believers as second class citizens as does Islam. Judaism unlike Christianity or Islam does not believe in conversion or telling anyone their religion is wrong or treating them as inferiors.

Islam preaches non Muslims are infidel. Christianity preaches if you do not believe in Jesus you go to hell. Judaism does not. Yet in Higgly’s world, Jews are evil for wanting a state and that is automatically inferred as racist but when Muslims and Christians in fact codify discrimination and intolerance in their religious doctrine it is ignored.

In Higgly’s world we just assume it is normal for states to have Christian or Muslim connections but there can be none with Jews.

Ultra-orthodox Jews do not believe Israel can be created until the Messiah returns and does it. Christian Zionists believe Israel must be created so that Jesus can then return and there will then be an appocolyptic war and then we all turn Christian or die.

Muslims believe the entire world is infidel unless Muslim and do not differentiate state from Islam.

The point is there are many religions with people who interperate these religions in many ways.

In Higgly’s world we ignore that.

[Rue]

BUFFY AND HIGGLY:S ACCUSATIONS OF ISRAEL OCCUPYING GAZA AND THE WEST BANK, USING CHILDEN AS SHIELDS, etc.

In Buffy’s world the Israeli Defence Force is an agent of evil that kills children and innocent Palestinian civilians. She feels they use children as shields. She is backed up by Higgly who provides a story of a Palestinian cowering in his arms.

So I will now carefully respond to the myths they have raised.

1. Israel occupies The West Bank

Under international law a state must first exist and be sovereign to then be occupied.

The West Bank in fact is disputed territory that has never been defined as part of a state so it can not be legally occupied. Layman not understanding international law, simply use the word occupied such as Higgly and Buffy. They remain oblivious to the fact that each time they use such a word they simply reflect their legal ignorance of the concept of occupation.

Now let us talk about the notion Israel is illegally occupying the West Bank in violation of the Geneva Convention. Again that is a myth. It doesn’t violate the Geneva Convention because it is present on the West Bank.

In fact under the Geneva Convention if Israel chooses to have civilians live on the West Bank and administer them with its civilian government, it must then offer all Muslims of the West Bank citizenship of Israel.

If Israel does not wish to give citizenship to the Muslims of the West Bank, then it must administer its citizens through the Israeli military until the dispute as to who owns the West Bank can be resolved.

Israel is in violation of the convention not because it occupies, but because it administers its civilians with its civilian government and not its military.

Israel contends this is a technicality since no Muslim on the West Bank wants to live in Israel anyways.

The practical reality works like this. Since 1949, terrorists have continually operated from the West Bank and Gaza attacking Israel. Buffy lives in Canada and has no clue of the small distance between the West Bank and Gaza and Israel.

She has no idea what that means and how easy that makes it for terrorists to infiltrate into Israel and kill people and continually shoot missiles at Israelis making it impossible for them to live.

Israel in return unable to be left alone within its 1967 borders, then sends its army onto the West Bank and into Gaza to try stop the terrorists and missile attacks-each terrorist act gets retaliated against and a cycle of tit for tat begins with civilians on both sides caught in between dying.

Israel made a huge error in this way. When it sent settlers on to the West Bank it had no satellite technology. Its only way to monitor and keep track of Palestinian terrorists was either through patrols (highly inefficient) or by settlement posts serving as early warning posts. So it set up these settlements like frontier posts.

Instead of deterring terrorists, it infuriated ordinary West Bank Palestinians causing drive by shootings and trapping the IDF between Israeli settlers and Palestinian West Bankers trying to prevent them from fighting each other.

Israel said repeatedly to Arafat to control the terror and they would get out.

Israel thought they had a deal in the Oslo Accord. They in fact began pulling settlers out, but Arafat then told the world he never had any intention of making any kind of peace settlement with Israel and as Israel began pulling out its settlers ordered full scale terror attacks on Israel from Fatah, Islamic Jihad, etc.

As much as people like Higgly want to portray Sharon as a psychopath he inherited a country whose Premier before him offered Arafat 97% of all the land Arafat asked for only to be told by Arafat he was only posturing and Arafat would now not stop until Israel was wiped off the map.

Sharon inherited a country made a fool of by Arafat. It is public domain how Arafat violated the Oslo accord. It is public domain for anyone to read his speeches and his comments and the comments of the former Israeli Premier before Sharon and Bill Clinton.

Arafat was clear the Oslo Accord to him was a joke. Some said it was a flawed accord in the sense that economically the West Bank could not survive on its own, but those detractors also conceded the Oslo Accord could work, if there was a common market between Israel, Jordan and the Palestine nation of the West Bank.

The problem with that was both Arafat and Hamas made it clear they did not want a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. In their vision all of Israel and Jordan, the Gaza and West Bank must be a Muslim state.

All you have to do is read what Arafat said.

Arafat became a multi-billionaire stealing aid money from his people and peddling heroin.

He had an opportunity to create a nation. Israel signed an accord saying they would help him build a Palestinian state and he laughed off Clinton.

In fact, most other disputed territories around the world are not referred to as being occupied by the party that controls them. This is true, for example, of tof Kashmir.

Occupation typically refers to foreign control of an area that was under the previous sovereignty of another state. In the case of the West Bank, there was no legitimate sovereign because the territory had been illegally occupied by Jordan from 1948 to 1967.

Only two countries — Britain and Pakistan — recognized Jordan's action. The Palestinians never demanded an end to Jordanian occupation and the creation of a Palestinian state.

It is also important to distinguish the acquisition of territory in a war of conquest as opposed to a war of self-defense.

A nation that attacks another and then retains the territory it conquers is an occupier. One that gains territory in the course of defending itself is not in the same category. And this is the situation with Israel, which specifically told King Hussein that if Jordan stayed out of the 1967 war, Israel would not fight against him. Hussein ignored the warning and attacked Israel. While fending off the assault and driving out the invading Jordanian troops, Israel came to control the West Bank.

By rejecting Arab demands that Israel be required to withdraw from all the territories won in 1967, the UN Security Council, in Resolution 242, acknowledged that Israel was entitled to claim at least part of these lands for new defensible borders.

Since Oslo, the case for tagging Israel as an occupying power has been further weakened by the fact that Israel transferred virtually all civilian authority to the Palestinian Authority.

Israel retained the power to control its own external security and that of its citizens, but 98 percent of the Palestinian population in the West Bank and Gaza came under the PA's authority.

The extent to which Israel has been forced to maintain a military presence in the territories has been governed by the Palestinians' unwillingness to end violence against Israel and that is precisely what the Arab League, Egypt, Jordan and now Mr. Abbas have said.

[buffycat]

Rue, can you please stop spamming this thread?

Or is it your intention to completely derail the topic?

[Rue]

I have taken great care to clearly respond to a plethora of misrepresentations of Higgly and Buffy.

I regret it took so long but they have engaged in countless misrepresentations thinking no one will take the time to challenge them.

I will now conclude by addressing the following myths and misrepresentations they have engaged in;

1-only Palestinians were displaced by the conflict

As I stated above and documented, Palestinians left their homes in 1947-49 for a variety of reasons and Higgly's attempts to try revise history or Buffy's attempt to refer to a discredited writer Benny Morris who got caught lying and misrepresenting facts to try distort historic fact will not change the facts.

It is a fact admitted by the Muslim world, that thousands of wealthy Arabs left in anticipation of a war, and thousands more responded to Arab leaders' calls to get out of the way of the advancing armies, a handful were expelled, but most simply fled to avoid being caught in the cross fire of a battle.

Buffy can look for revisionists to try change this, but I deliberately quoted people who are anti-Israel or not pro-Israel to show trying to suggest it was all a ploy by Jews to get Palestinians out is absolute bull shit.

Today many people like Buffy and Higgly who are not interested in actual historic fact will make subjective claims that 800,000 to 1,000,000 Palestinians became refugees in 1947-49.

In fact the last census was taken by the British in 1945 and it is public doman and found approximately 1.2 million permanent Arab residents in all of Palestine.

A 1949 Government of Israel census counted 160,000 Arabs living in the country after the war.

In 1947, a total of 809,100 Arabs lived in the same area according to British surveys.

This means no more than 650,000 Palestinian Arabs could have become refugees.

In fact a report by the UN Mediator on Palestine provided an even lower figure — 472,000, and calculated that only about 360,000 Arab refugees required aid.

All of the above can be referenced as follows;

Arieh Avneri, The Claim of Dispossession, (NJ: Transaction Books, 1984), p. 272;

Kedar, Benjamin. The Changing Land Between the Jordan and the Sea. (Israel: Yad Izhak Ben-Zvi Press, 1999), p. 206;

Paul Johnson, A History of the Jews, (NY: Harper & Row, 1987), p. 529.

Progress Report of the United Nations Mediator on Palestine, Submitted to the Secretary-General for Transmission to the Members of the United Nations, General Assembly Official Records: Third Session, Supplement No.11 (A\648), Paris, 1948, p. 47 and Supplement No. 11A (A\689, and A\689\Add.1, p. 5; and "Conclusions From Progress Report of the United Nations Mediator on Palestine," (September 16, 1948), U.N. doc. A/648 (part one, p. 29; part two, p. 23 and part three, p. 11), (September 18, 1948).

IN FACT 900,000 Jews far more then the actual number of displaced Palestinians were also displaced.

The difference is Israel absorbed 700,000 of them.

What has the Arab League nations done?

They deliberately placed the Palestinians in refugee camps and told the world they would stay there as a reminder to the world that the land must be given back to them.

The Arab League nations and the Muslim world of the Middle East consists of 99.6% of its geographic area and all of its oil reserves which have garnered it billions and ter since 1949 it has never allowed Palestinians to settle in its countries NOR HAS IT PAID ONE PENNY IN AID TO PALESTINIANS and limited its financial support only to terrorist cells.

Since world war two ove 100 million people have been displaced including all the Jews from Europe in the holocaust and 900,000 Jews of the Middle East and yet only when it comes to Palestinians do we hear this notion that the descendants of Palestinians displaced from the conflict are refugees and entitled to return to Israel and full compensation.

No descendant of any refugee under international law has been entitled to compensation but the Arab world would have us believe Palestinian descendants are different.

We are to believe although Jordan has had a law of return guaranteeing all Palestinians automatic citizenship in Jordan that this is not good enough. We are to believe no Arab country particularly the ones that started the war against Israel and caused the problem in the first place, should be absolved of any responsibility and everything be blamed on Israel.

Israel is racist for wanting a Jewish state, but its not racist for Muslims to have Muslim states. Israel is racist for having a law of return for Jews, but Jordan's law of retturn is not.

The fact that Jews are not allowed and were never allowed to own land or have citizenship in the Arab world to this day is not racist, but Israel which affords its Muslims the exact same rights as Jews is.

Israel we are told engages in genocide and yet within its borders, the Muslim population has grown 24 times the rate of Jews and outside Israel the Palestinian population has exploded at a 100 to 1 rate compared to Jews.

Jews are involved in genocide of Palestinians but provide 300,000 schooling in Israel and provide hospitalization to any Palestinian who requests it.

The IDF mass exterminates Palestinians and then risks its lives to save them from Hamas and terrorists and rush them to hospitals.

How is it Israel engages in genocide and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians but;

1-in Gaza, for example, the population increased from 731,000 in July 1994 to 1,324,991 in 2004, an increase of 81 percent

2-the growth rate was 3.8 percent, one of the highest in the world

3- according to the UN, the total Palestinian population in all the disputed territories (they include Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem) was 1,006,000 in 1950, and rose to 1,094,000 in 1970, and exploded to 2,152,000 in 1990.

How is it if Israel is engaged in genocide and hates Palestinians- it offered to withdraw from 97 percent of the West Bank and 100 percent of Gaza only to have Arafat tell the world he could care less and never had any intention of making peace with Israel and Oslo was just a stepping stone on the way to recovering all of Israel and Jordan?

How is it Arafat and his Fatah terrorist cells and Hamas all had charters expressly stating along with Hezbollah that Israel must be wiped out and all Jews around the world were considered the enemy and yet Israel is the one portrayed as the racist evil perpetrator of genocide?

Finally we saw Higgly try suggest he was in the Gaza and held a cowering woman in his arms and we have heard arm-chair expert Buffy advise us all of how evil the IDF is.

So then given the IDF is evil why would they ensure that humanitarian assistance is provided to Palestinians in need?

Here, let us have Buffy explain why Palestinians stated that during just one 48-hour period (January 5-6, 2003), the IDF:

1-coordinated the movement of Palestinians seeking medical care, assisting 40 to go to hospitals, including four patients from Gaza who were transferred to Israel for medical treatment

2-Coordinated the movement of 284 Palestinians in the West Bank who were transferred by ambulance

3-Coordinated the passage of building materials for the construction of a hospital in Kalkilya

4-Coordinated the passage of humanitarian goods to Bethlehem

5-Coordinated entry of ration cards sent by an international aid organization to the residents of Azoun

6-Enabled the distribution of ration cards by the Red Cross in Salfit

7-Coordinated the passage of agricultural produce and food between Muassi and Khan Yunis

8-Coordinated the passage of an UNRWA team in Gaza to aid in the disposal of rubbish

9-Arranged entry into Kalkilya for an Israeli Arab family from East Jerusalem to attend their son’s wedding.

Ah yes But Buffy is an expert and Higgly knows all Israelis are psychopaths. They are all evil. Higgly has met them all.

[M.Dancer]

I think Rue has done good work here. I wouldn't expect anyone to formulate such a detailed response to accusations from a hate site and its supporters. But he did.

[Bonam]

Indeed, good work Rue.

[White Doors]

Great posts Rue!

Yet the anti-semites accuse you of spamming. haha

I have never seen such intentional obtuseness except in regards to anti-semites and the topic of Israel.

Kind of scary that anti-semitism is on the rise again. It is a barometer. We should all take note as this affects everybody, not just the Jews.

[Rue]

Thank you to Bon, White and Dance.

Please note all my responses were in direct response to what

Buffy and Higgly raised and not one response I made initiated any

discussion it simply responded to their comments or the information

they presented as "truth".

As for my responses to Higgly's comments, Buffy may want to portray

him as a victim but I personally find his comments anti-semitic and

deeply offensive to Jews and so I take great care to explain why.

Who and what Higgly is as a person is

not my concern, what he states is.

I respond to the words he places on this forum whether

they be a sarcastiuc reference to New York being the homeland of Jews,

throwing the holocaust in with inappropriate references that have nothing

to do with the issues raised theyeby ridiculing it's signifigance and insulting

holocaust survivors, or when he makes deliberate hate inciting comments

suggesting all Israelis as psychopaths.

His negative slurs and generalizations need to be confronted and exposed

for what they are-hatre mongering against Jews and no

trying to pretend these comments only go to criticizing Israrel policies

is a crock. Higgly's comments slurred ALL Israelis as psychopaths

and his comments deliberately define Zionism, Judaism, Jews and Israelis

in one lump categoiry.

You want to discuss Israel and criticize its policies do so and expect a debate.

Throw in slurs that denigrate the holocaust and Jews as a people or

misrepresent Judaism and blur the difference between whether you

refer to Jews or Israelis, and any of us have the right to challenge

such things as being anti-semitic and bigoted.

I have yet to see Higgly refrain from making slurs that attack Judaism,a ll Israelis,

and all Jews when he discusses Israel.

As for you Buffy no you can't cut and paste or present simply one side of the stiory

then name call (its propaganda, its spam) when people respond and debate you

amd show you there is more then one side to the issues you raise.

You Buffy chose to portray yourself as an expert who can lecture this forum

on who they should read and what they should consider. As such I have the right

to challenge what I think is your lack of intellectual integrity.

I specifically state to you Buffy that for you to come on this post and lecture people

to read Benny Morris and then respond when you are provided clear evidence he

is a charlatan that people should read him anyways-shows exactly why I question

whether you have any intellectual integrity.

Eithe take what I or Bonham presented to you and debate it with information to challenge

it or refrain from the accusations of spam or proganda. When you engage in such

name calling all you evidence is that you are in an intellectual panic.

Try reading something other then the hate sites you go to and you might find a way

to debate people like me or Bonham meaningfully.

[scribblet]

Great posts Rue, keep them coming.

[Rue]

Thanks Scrib. One last one.

Damn these Rube apologists. Zionist infidel!!!!

Now that I have responded to all the historic misrepresentations I will be pleased to respond to the original post.

Buffy posted information with the specific intent to showcase that Israel is killing children. She then stated Israel uses children as human shields. Its interesting she has no concerns about Hamas using children as shields, just Israel.

In Buffy’s exercise, she asks us simply to assume Israel is evil and has no justification for what it does. The posts are designed to inflame hatred against Israelis and portray them as child-killers and like a moth to a flame Higgly was soon there telling us that ALL Israelis are psychopaths.

If someone is interested in the other side of the accusations they can go to the following web-site which provides analysis of how Hamas deliberately uses civilians as shields;

http://www.ajcongress.org/site/PageServer?pagename=secret2

They can also go to the following site to see with pictures how Hamas uses children as shields. http://www.geocities.com/palestiniansareli...manShields.html

The human shield stories Buffy made reference to in fact originated from the statements of 15 year old Amid Omeira and his 24 year old cousin Samah. There was a further eport from an 11 year old Jihan Dadush. In those testimonies, these individuals claimed when the IDF went door to door in search of Palestinian terrorists they used them as shields.

It is true when the IDF went door to door, looking for terrorists who hide in civilian homes and build their bombs and pile up their weapons in civilian homes and hide behind civilians rather then fight in the open, they have used children as “shields” so the IDF started using the same children as shields as well. Of course Buffy completely ignores the context as to why the IDF did this. The IDF has a military code that does not allow this, but they have done it in the past in an effort to avoid having to throw grenades or kill other civilians while searching for Hamas or terrorists. It slowed things down just enough to prevent instant fire killing anyone caught in between.

The Supreme Court of Israel made this practice illegal . It happened as a natural response to terrorists using children and humans as shields and it in fact saved lives as morally repugnant as Buffy finds it.

I personally believe as I would think any pro or anti Israeli person does that no child for any reason should be used by terrorists or the IDF in any way. Unlike Buffy I do not simply infer only one side did it or that Israel initiated it and simply did so because they are evil child killers as Buffy would have us believe. It was done to save lives not terrorize children. As cruel as it may seem it makes sense if you are in close quarters and you are desperate not to kill anyone else and neutralize the exercise of Hamas using civilians as shields.

I also state that Buffy’s inference that Israel for no reason goes into the Gaza and West Bank and arbitrarily kills people simply because it is evil is a deliberate mirepresentation of the terror the IDF tries to defend its people from.

In Buffy’s world, when Israeli civilians die from terror, when Israeli children and citizens are siubjected to terror attacks and constant missile attacks, she pretends this does not exist. If Hamas uses children and humans as shields she remain silent. If Hamas has a deliberate policy of placing its civilians in the line of fire to kill them to augment sympathetic reaction to its agenda to eradicate Israel, that’s o.k.. If Hamas calls on its people to exterminate all Jews not just Israelis, and to terrorize and murder as many Israeli civilians as is possible, that is o.k. because in Buffy’s world, we only speak when it is to criticize Israel.

What makes Buffy’s one sided selected exercise of demonizing Israel for trying to defend itself against terror and portray it as cold blinded child killers despicable, is aside from the obvious-inciting hate against Israelis, it deliberately ignores why Israelis must defend itself against terror.

It is a fact that 1 of 5 Israeli Jews has lost a loved one to the cyrrent Palestinian terrorist campaign. That is the equivalent of 60 million Americans being killed by terror.

Over 14% of the Israeli Jewish population has witnessed a terrorist attack or seen dead bodies from a terrorist attack.

The above percentage of a country’s population murdered and terrorized by such attacks is unprecedented in human history.

The above information was obtained in a survey conducted by Professor Gavriel Ben Dor and Dr. Daphna Kanti-Nissim at Haifa University and you can get it by going to the university’s web site or googling their names. They randomly surveyed 1,630 Israelis by phone.

Based on their survey it would appear of five million Israeli Jews, more than one million registered the loss of a loved one to terror in the past four years.

Israelis die and suffer as much as Palestinians. Why doesn’t Buffy tell people when considering the innocent people dying in the Middle East to also go to;

http://www.all4israel.org/index.cfm?fuseac...ry&catId=69 OR

http://info.jpost.com/C002/Supplements/CasualtiesOfWar/.

Oh I forgot, if we point out with these sites show which Israelis have died from terror that doesn't offer context, it according to Buffy changes the subject and is spam and propaganda.

It is also probably according to Buffy spam and propaganda to point out that between Sept. 29/00 and May 1, 2006, the Magen David Odom reported treating a total of 7,844 causualties in Israeli including 999 killed, 642 severeky injured, 9540 moderately injured and 5.263 lightly injured including 11 medics. (watch it now these statistics include 18 Israelis jilled abroad and 3 American diplomats in Gaza)

Never mind 1 of every 26,392 Israelis has been getting killed in terror attacks. That in Buffy’s world is spam and propaganda.

It is truly unfortunate any Palestinian child or civilian dies or is caught in the cross fire of the terrorist wars and has to live in violence.

It is equally as unfortunate Israel chidlren and civilians must die from terrorism or be faced with it as a constant threat,

What is even more unfortunate is that sheltered safe protected people like Buffy fuel the hatred by engaging in comments that inflame hatred and incitement against Israelis for wanting to defend themselves against terror.

It not only denigrates Israelis, but it patronizes Palestinians.

[Rue]

In some of my responses I may have crossed the line and

instead of criticizing the comments of Buffy or Higgly gone

too far and criticized them as people.

If I did I apologize. My intent was to forcefully debate

their comments NOTHING else.

Edited August 9, 2007 by Rue

[White Doors]

When the comments are consistent and demonstrate their viewpoints quite clearly, I have no problem calling them what they are.

No sense in tip toeing around the truth.

I will apologize when their view on the ME becomes balanced, until then - they are what they are.