Canada's Cities & Socialism: Other People's Money

[August1991]

Toronto:

Toronto police and prosecutors have been trying to get Gregory Sappleton and Akiel Eubank off the streets for years.

G&M

Vancouver:

Municipal services in Vancouver City Hall grinded to a halt Monday, while some parents hunt for alternatives to keep their children entertained, after 3,500 inside workers joined 1,800 outside workers in a massive civic strike.

CBC

Montreal:

From aid to Canada's aerospace industry, whose biggest cluster is in Quebec, to funding for the arts, Mr. Fortier has fought hard on the city's behalf. "Since Michael Fortier's been there, there is a distinct impression that things are starting to move," says Bernard Roy, a lawyer at the minister's old firm. "He wants to deliver the merchandise and he's begun to do it."

As well as being named chairman of Montreal's Old Port, a federally owned tourist attraction for which Mr. Fortier recently announced a major funding increase...

G&M

Montreal's viaducts are collapsing and killing people, its roads impose repair costs on cars' suspensions and tires. And Fortier talks of developing, once again, Montreal's port.

----

As Margaret Thatcher said, socialist experiments always fail because they run out of other people's money.

In a market economy, the first indication of a problem is when there is no more money. Governments spend other people's money and so for governments, this first indication usually takes time. Local governments typically see first that there's no more money. Socialist politics first fail in cities.

Stephen Harper and provincial governments will be under tremendous political pressure to give money to the socialist governments of Canada's cities.

They should do as Ronald Reagan/Gerald Ford and say no. NYC is a clean pleasant place now. It wasn't in 1978. If the federal/provincial governments indulge the socialist incompetence of large fusioned/amalgamated city governments, there will be no end to the subsidies. And no end to the continuing socialist incompetence of municipal governments representing large cities.

You'll note that municipal governments of smaller cities elsewhere in Canada are a model of democracy.

For the Tories, there ain't a vote in Montreal, Toronto or Vancouver. Why give 'em a cent of government money?

Link

Edited July 24, 2007 by August1991

[B. Max]

For the Tories, there ain't a vote in Montreal, Toronto or Vancouver. Why give 'em a cent of government money?

I agree they should not get a dime, but Harper is hardly an example of fiscal responsibility. The cities are the creation and exist at the whim of the provincial governments, and are themselves examples of how to spend yourself into oblivion. All three levels are tax and spend socialists who spend like drunken sailors to see who can break the taxpayer first, and then blame it on another level of government.

[Renegade]

For the Tories, there ain't a vote in Montreal, Toronto or Vancouver. Why give 'em a cent of government money?

Toronto has for years gone with its begging bowl to provincial and federal governments. Unfortunately those govenments have constantly caved and conceded to Toronto's demands. Toronto has recently been given additional tax power to tax motor vehicle registration, alcohol, and real-estate transactions. It is amusing to me to watch the jousting for and aginst these taxes.

I have always wondered why Toronto couldn't just raise property taxes and meet its own funding needs. Afterall it has the lowest property tax rates among the surrounding communities. GTA Tax Comparison

[Technocrat]

Its good to see that someone else noticed that the Toronto property tax rates are realatively quite low.

As I am still renting (saving up for a decent downpayment on a first home) I do not pay property tax. However as this is a brand new tax that I will have to start paying soon enough I started educating myself about tax rates, and how they differ from municipality to municipality.

I think Toronto needs to re-evaluate the way it taxes properties. As the majority of the Toronto population rent, I do not see the problem of raising the property tax rates on rental properties and residential houses. If you have enough to purchase a property in Toronto proper... you should have to pay a reasonable level of property tax. Not the freakin lowest property tax rate... I don't know but it just doens't make sense for Toronto City hall to be all like... 'hey look were all cool and green we want to be all lovey dovey hippies and give lip service to how everyone needs to take public transit to save the planet.' Then when your in a budget crunch... and are too stupid to figure out how to balance the books you go and threaten to cut public transit first...wtf? Bollocks. Ok the last bit may have been a bit silly but something is seriously wrong with Toronto's city council.

That being said... the province does need to look at how the downloading and underfunding of services to toronto has seriously F'd everything up... McDumbassGuinty has had long enough to sort this mess out... and he hasn't either.

I think we are witnessing the complete and utter failure of Governments and politicians to do their jobs.

Edited July 24, 2007 by Technocrat

[Shakeyhands]

For the Tories, there ain't a vote in Montreal, Toronto or Vancouver. Why give 'em a cent of government money?

You jest, I'm sure. Where would the country be without tax revenues from those cities?

[jdobbin]

I think Toronto needs to re-evaluate the way it taxes properties. As the majority of the Toronto population rent, I do not see the problem of raising the property tax rates on rental properties and residential houses. If you have enough to purchase a property in Toronto proper... you should have to pay a reasonable level of property tax. Not the freakin lowest property tax rate... I don't know but it just doens't make sense for Toronto City hall to be all like... 'hey look were all cool and green we want to be all lovey dovey hippies and give lip service to how everyone needs to take public transit to save the planet.' Then when your in a budget crunch... and are too stupid to figure out how to balance the books you go and threaten to cut public transit first...wtf? Bollocks. Ok the last bit may have been a bit silly but something is seriously wrong with Toronto's city council.

Do you have a citation that the majority of Torontonians rent? I would have said the majority are home owners.

[M.Dancer]

As the majority of the Toronto population rent,

Do you have a citation that the majority of Torontonians rent? I would have said the majority are home owners.

63% of households are home owners....whether this translates into the majority of the population livings as rentersI don't know but I would doubt it.

[White Doors]

I think Toronto needs to re-evaluate the way it taxes properties. As the majority of the Toronto population rent, I do not see the problem of raising the property tax rates on rental properties and residential houses. If you have enough to purchase a property in Toronto proper... you should have to pay a reasonable level of property tax. Not the freakin lowest property tax rate...

And who do you think will ultimately pay for the tax increase of landlords?

The renters. It helps to think these issues through.

But hey, they are rich so you just want their money. That's what you are really saying, right?

[Technocrat]

I got that stat from a crfb news segment... I stand corrected.

No im not out to 'steal from the rich'... Im just trying to comment on the fact that Torontonians pay very little in property taxes when compared to other Ontario municipalities. As their budget is in serious trouble, I think that this would be one way to fill the Toronto budget gap.

I would also favour the city really really doing some decent analysis on what are the core services that need to be provided to make the city work properly.

The province needs to get involved and recognize that the whole 'downloading' fad in the '90s didn't really work... it just shifted the deficit burden from one level of government to another.

[guyser]

Toronto private property taxes are low, until you get the bill and say whoa......market based assessment does this.

On the other hand, business taxes (property) are at or near the highest in all of NA. Thus the tax base is pretty good for this city.

That is the reason why Milton is attracting business , low personal and comm'l rates. But that will change, give it time.

Dont get me started on socialism and my cottage taxes...thieving p***ks.

[jdobbin]

Toronto private property taxes are low, until you get the bill and say whoa......market based assessment does this.

Are public schools part of the property tax or are they funded provincially in Ontario? I know that it is just brutal here. The city keeps city tax frozen and the school divisions increase taxes each year.

Do you think the housing bubble is adding to the misery because market values are pushed up for everyone when it comes to assessment?

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financi...9c2df03&k=82576

A house on the market for $1.295-million has sold for $605,000 over asking, sparking debate on the role of the bidding war in Toronto.

Sitting on a 50-foot wide lot on Munro Park Avenue, a leafy street that peeks out on the lake and is arguably the most desirable in the Beach, the four-bedroom home sold for 47% over asking, almost unheard of in even this city's booming real estate market.

"It was an American Idol feel out there. There were 10 agents on the stairs," says Royal LePage's Mark Butkovich, who along with Al Sinclair represented the buyers, a young childless couple who wish to remain anonymous.

[guyser]

Are public schools part of the property tax or are they funded provincially in Ontario? I know that it is just brutal here. The city keeps city tax frozen and the school divisions increase taxes each year.

Do you think the housing bubble is adding to the misery because market values are pushed up for everyone when it comes to assessment?

Delegated on your tax form , public or catholic. Your pick

A house on the market for $1.295-million has sold for $605,000 over asking, sparking debate on the role of the bidding war in Toronto.

Sitting on a 50-foot wide lot on Munro Park Avenue, a leafy street that peeks out on the lake and is arguably the most desirable in the Beach, the four-bedroom home sold for 47% over asking, almost unheard of in even this city's booming real estate market.

"It was an American Idol feel out there. There were 10 agents on the stairs," says Royal LePage's Mark Butkovich, who along with Al Sinclair represented the buyers, a young childless couple who wish to remain anonymous

Ouch !! I had not heard that one. I guess money and no brains (although it takes "some"brains to get $1.9M house)

Their neighbours are not pleased I assure. It will now be the benchmark in the Beaches for the rest of the houses.

I had the same thing with my cottage neighbour. She sold her place for $1.4M (IIRC) and that included her furniture and bedsheets and linens ($2000 per BDRM) , when in fact that place should have sold for about $1m . I gently tried to convince her to do a side deal on the contents but she was a stubborn old single Italian lady , and the finest baker I knew. Something strange arguing with her whilst dowing Cannoli's and other goodstuff. Now with the new assessment coming in, taxes will go up for our lane. Damn her....for leaving without more Cannoli.

Edited July 25, 2007 by guyser

[Renegade]

63% of households are home owners....whether this translates into the majority of the population livings as rentersI don't know but I would doubt it.

Not sure this is exactly correct.

There are slightly more than 900,000 households living in the city and approximately 475,000 are renter households

Toronto’s renter households – key facts

I agree though that by population there are a larger number of people who are homeowners as many renter householder are singles and many homeowners are families.

[jdobbin]

Delegated on your tax form , public or catholic. Your pick

Ouch !! I had not heard that one. I guess money and no brains (although it takes "some"brains to get $1.9M house)

Their neighbours are not pleased I assure. It will now be the benchmark in the Beaches for the rest of the houses.

I had the same thing with my cottage neighbour. She sold her place for $1.4M (IIRC) and that included her furniture and bedsheets and linens ($2000 per BDRM) , when in fact that place should have sold for about $1m . I gently tried to convince her to do a side deal on the contents but she was a stubborn old single Italian lady , and the finest baker I knew. Something strange arguing with her whilst dowing Cannoli's and other goodstuff. Now with the new assessment coming in, taxes will go up for our lane. Damn her....for leaving without more Cannoli.

So it is property tax based and goes to where you decide?

I was discussing earlier with someone else about whether the housing crunch and people needing two jobs to pay for it was the result of a housing bubble. It looks to me that across Canada, we are starting to see that type of bubble emerging.

The U.S. is experiencing a housing slump. Things there were a little crazy for a while. Could Canada be in in for it next?

http://www.forbes.com/markets/2007/07/24/c...4markets23.html

Cracks in the credit industry and the ongoing slump in the housing sector have contributed to the volatility of the U.S. financial markets this year, as nervous investors have periodically fretted about whether those problems would influence other areas of the economy.

On Tuesday, those jitters were heightened by fresh reports from two companies indicating that the rebound in the housing sector might not be coming any time too soon.

[Renegade]

Are public schools part of the property tax or are they funded provincially in Ontario?

It is funded provincially however, it is collected municipally on behalf of the Province of Ontario.

[jdobbin]

It is funded provincially however, it is collected municipally on behalf of the Province of Ontario.

How does that work? Does the province set the rate for the school divisions? Is it based on your property rather than your income?

[Renegade]

How does that work? Does the province set the rate for the school divisions? Is it based on your property rather than your income?

There is supposed to be some funding formula which determines how much each school board gets, though I don't know the details.

It is based upon property value, just as property taxes are.

Edit: this may provide what you are looking for: Student-Focused Funding

Edited July 25, 2007 by Renegade