Pope: Other Christians not true churches

[kuzadd]

gotta love that!!!

My religion is better then yours , nah, nah, nah!!

Oh yeah, it's a real "news" story.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070710/ap_on_...er_christians_4

ORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy - Pope Benedict XVI reasserted the primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says other Christian communities are either defective or not true churches and Catholicism provides the only true path to salvation.

The statement brought swift criticism from Protestant leaders. "It makes us question whether we are indeed praying together for Christian unity," said the World Alliance of Reformed Churches, a fellowship of 75 million Protestants in more than 100 countries.

"It makes us question the seriousness with which the Roman Catholic Church takes its dialogues with the reformed family and other families of the church," the group said in a letter charging that the document took ecumenical dialogue back to the era before the Second Vatican Council.

It was the second time in a week that Benedict has corrected what he says are erroneous interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, the 1962-1965 meetings that modernized the church. On Saturday, Benedict revived the old Latin Mass — a move cheered by Catholic traditionalists but criticized by more liberal ones as a step backward from Vatican II.

Wow, let's go back in time, yeah!

[ScottSA]

gotta love that!!!

My religion is better then yours , nah, nah, nah!!

Oh yeah, it's a real "news" story.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070710/ap_on_...er_christians_4

ORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy - Pope Benedict XVI reasserted the primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says other Christian communities are either defective or not true churches and Catholicism provides the only true path to salvation.

The statement brought swift criticism from Protestant leaders. "It makes us question whether we are indeed praying together for Christian unity," said the World Alliance of Reformed Churches, a fellowship of 75 million Protestants in more than 100 countries.

"It makes us question the seriousness with which the Roman Catholic Church takes its dialogues with the reformed family and other families of the church," the group said in a letter charging that the document took ecumenical dialogue back to the era before the Second Vatican Council.

It was the second time in a week that Benedict has corrected what he says are erroneous interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, the 1962-1965 meetings that modernized the church. On Saturday, Benedict revived the old Latin Mass — a move cheered by Catholic traditionalists but criticized by more liberal ones as a step backward from Vatican II.

Wow, let's go back in time, yeah!

What's it to you?

[scribblet]

What's it to you?

Who cares really, nothing to get excited about aren't all faiths 'the one true faith' -

[jefferiah]

You know even though I am not a Catholic, and I totally disagree with their views I dont see why this is such a big deal. I am Protestant but there are some vital differences between the two. And you cant really believe in one while believing in the other. So I mean what kind of Catholic would you be if you said Mary was a virgin all her life and the sinless Mother of God, but also Jesus's brothers were not immacutely conceived and Mary is a normal sinner. You can't get anywhere by trying to mish mash things all the time. For instance if the teacher asks what is 5 plus 5....one kid raises his hand and says "8", the other says "10". Should we ask both if them to soften their position and make the answer "9"?

Ah but there has to be something that is true, Scriblett. You are either a man or a woman. Yes?

[Liam]

Don't most religions claim to be the one true path to salvation? I don't see what the fuss is all about.

[jazzer]

Don't most religions claim to be the one true path to salvation? I don't see what the fuss is all about.

As a reformed Catholic that is news to me. They never used to be so forceful about it. Now I'm really glad I left that organization.

[Liam]

As a reformed Catholic that is news to me. They never used to be so forceful about it. Now I'm really glad I left that organization.

You never once recited in Mass: "the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church"? That's saying it is THE one.

[kuzadd]

Dismay and anger as Pope declares Protestants cannot have churches

http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,,2123195,00.html

Protestant churches yesterday reacted with dismay to a new declaration approved by Pope Benedict XVI insisting they were mere "ecclesial communities" and their ministers effectively phonies with no right to give communion.

Coming just four days after the reinstatement of the Latin mass, yesterday's document left no doubt about the Pope's eagerness to back traditional Roman Catholic practices and attitudes, even at the expense of causing offence.

The view that Protestants cannot have churches was first set out by Pope Benedict seven years ago when, as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, he headed the Vatican "ministry" for doctrine. A commentary attached to the latest text acknowledged that his 2000 document, Dominus Iesus, had caused "no little distress".

But it added: "It is nevertheless difficult to see how the title of 'Church' could possibly be attributed to [Protestant communities], given that they do not accept the theological notion of the Church in the Catholic sense and that they lack elements considered essential to the Catholic Church."

Edited July 12, 2007 by kuzadd

[kuzadd]

What's it to you?

I like it!

It's funny.

It reminds me of the posters who sit around on this forum and spout the, my religion is better then everyone else's attitude.

Guess what , according to his holiness.

All other christian religions are really "ecclesial communities" and there ministers phonies.

In essence, it's the same crap as here, and it's humourous to see the finger pointed in that direction!

[fcgv]

You know even though I am not a Catholic, and I totally disagree with their views I dont see why this is such a big deal. I am Protestant but there are some vital differences between the two. And you cant really believe in one while believing in the other. So I mean what kind of Catholic would you be if you said Mary was a virgin all her life and the sinless Mother of God, but also Jesus's brothers were not immacutely conceived and Mary is a normal sinner. You can't get anywhere by trying to mish mash things all the time. For instance if the teacher asks what is 5 plus 5....one kid raises his hand and says "8", the other says "10". Should we ask both if them to soften their position and make the answer "9"?

Ah but there has to be something that is true, Scriblett. You are either a man or a woman. Yes?

This, I think, is another move by the Pope to make it clear that the Church recognizes problems that have risen out of the misinterpretation of VII.

Pope JPII issued an apology for errors and injustices that occured in the past. That surprised some, and was a sigh of relief for others.

Moving forward.....

Now BXVI is moving to bolster the doctrine and tradition of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Ecumenism is a way to engage in dialogue with other denominations, instead of ignoring them. Hopefully, the result will be conversion to the Church.

VII didn't intend to give the impression that the Church now sees all Christian denominations as being as valid as the Church.

What I see in this Pope is a man who is going to leave behind a Church with it's faithful reverting to the devotion seen before the crazy changes in society during the 50's and 60's. Perhaps that is what happened with VII.

The timing.

[White Doors]

A rather amateur political move by the pope in my estimation.

Not very smart.

[Xman]

Reality is what you believe it to be.

[jefferiah]

You know even though I am not a Catholic, and I totally disagree with their views I dont see why this is such a big deal. I am Protestant but there are some vital differences between the two. And you cant really believe in one while believing in the other. So I mean what kind of Catholic would you be if you said Mary was a virgin all her life and the sinless Mother of God, but also Jesus's brothers were not immacutely conceived and Mary is a normal sinner. You can't get anywhere by trying to mish mash things all the time. For instance if the teacher asks what is 5 plus 5....one kid raises his hand and says "8", the other says "10". Should we ask both if them to soften their position and make the answer "9"?

Ah but there has to be something that is true, Scriblett. You are either a man or a woman. Yes?

This, I think, is another move by the Pope to make it clear that the Church recognizes problems that have risen out of the misinterpretation of VII.

Pope JPII issued an apology for errors and injustices that occured in the past. That surprised some, and was a sigh of relief for others.

Moving forward.....

Now BXVI is moving to bolster the doctrine and tradition of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Ecumenism is a way to engage in dialogue with other denominations, instead of ignoring them. Hopefully, the result will be conversion to the Church.

VII didn't intend to give the impression that the Church now sees all Christian denominations as being as valid as the Church.

What I see in this Pope is a man who is going to leave behind a Church with it's faithful reverting to the devotion seen before the crazy changes in society during the 50's and 60's. Perhaps that is what happened with VII.

The timing.

I wont convert to Catholicism I can tell you that. But at the same time it wouldnt be much of a faith if it didnt say its tenants were the right ones. Thats what having a position is about. The conversion from Catholicism occured when people were actually allowed to read the Bible and interpret it for themselves. Peter (the first Pope) was married. Mary is not mentioned in the Bible as a person to be prayed to or adored. Nor the so-called saints. The original church (i.e. Paul and the apostles never made mention of Mary). The use of Mary was probably a way for Roman culture to keep it's Diana. The "Queen of Heaven" is even warned about in the Old Testament. Where Jesus asked that the ceremony of eating bread and drinking wine be done in his memory he never dictated that it had to be done once a year by an ordained priest (the Priest has the power to put the Holy Spirit in the bread once a year???? yep its there in Catholic canon---i guess it like getting an oil change) of the Catholic church or else damnation.

[jefferiah]

Reality is what you believe it to be.

**Hits Xman across the head with a baseball bat.

Real enough for ya.

[Mad_Michael]

ORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy - Pope Benedict XVI reasserted the primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says other Christian communities are either defective or not true churches and Catholicism provides the only true path to salvation.

And someone thinks this is news?

Gosh, tomorrow someone will post something saying the sky is blue!

[Mad_Michael]

Reality is what you believe it to be.

Posting identical nonsense in multiple threads is the very definition of SPAM.

[Xman]

Reality is what you believe it to be.

Edited July 12, 2007 by Xman

[jazzer]

As a reformed Catholic that is news to me. They never used to be so forceful about it. Now I'm really glad I left that organization.

You never once recited in Mass: "the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church"? That's saying it is THE one.

Yeah, but where I came from the concept wasn't bashed over the head. It was more lip service than anything else, something you said by rote Sunday after Sunday. I took it to mean that Catholic meant universal, a part of the whole Chrisitian experience. But now with the Pope making this proclamation, it drives the church back a few years, if not decades.

[Xman]

The statement is part of the Liturgy fo St. John Chrysystom and is recited in Orthodox Christian churches as well. The catholic part is small "c".

[fcgv]

I wont convert to Catholicism I can tell you that. But at the same time it wouldnt be much of a faith if it didnt say its tenants were the right ones. Thats what having a position is about. The conversion from Catholicism occured when people were actually allowed to read the Bible and interpret it for themselves. Peter (the first Pope) was married. Mary is not mentioned in the Bible as a person to be prayed to or adored. Nor the so-called saints. The original church (i.e. Paul and the apostles never made mention of Mary). The use of Mary was probably a way for Roman culture to keep it's Diana. The "Queen of Heaven" is even warned about in the Old Testament. Where Jesus asked that the ceremony of eating bread and drinking wine be done in his memory he never dictated that it had to be done once a year by an ordained priest (the Priest has the power to put the Holy Spirit in the bread once a year???? yep its there in Catholic canon---i guess it like getting an oil change) of the Catholic church or else damnation.

Phew, your historical inaccuracies alone could give me hours of work to rebut! Suffice it to say you are incorrect. The early church revered the Blessed Mother, and this was affirmed in the early Church Councils. The reformation did not come at a time when people were "allowed" to read the Scriptures. At the time of the Reformation, the majority of people were still illiterate. In fact, universal literacy in the West was not achieved until early in the last century. Nowhere in the Doctrines of Holy Mother church are there instructions or dogmas to pray to the Saints. The Mass is celebrated every single day, not once a year. The priest dosen't have the "power" to do anything. He has the faculties to act as the conduit between God and the people, as per Scripture and the Traditions of the Faith. The Bible is the book of the Church, and it was the Church which existed first. There is much more you are incorrect on, but those are the major ones.

Edited July 12, 2007 by fcgv

[jefferiah]

I wont convert to Catholicism I can tell you that. But at the same time it wouldnt be much of a faith if it didnt say its tenants were the right ones. Thats what having a position is about. The conversion from Catholicism occured when people were actually allowed to read the Bible and interpret it for themselves. Peter (the first Pope) was married. Mary is not mentioned in the Bible as a person to be prayed to or adored. Nor the so-called saints. The original church (i.e. Paul and the apostles never made mention of Mary). The use of Mary was probably a way for Roman culture to keep it's Diana. The "Queen of Heaven" is even warned about in the Old Testament. Where Jesus asked that the ceremony of eating bread and drinking wine be done in his memory he never dictated that it had to be done once a year by an ordained priest (the Priest has the power to put the Holy Spirit in the bread once a year???? yep its there in Catholic canon---i guess it like getting an oil change) of the Catholic church or else damnation.

Phew, your historical inaccuracies alone could give me hours of work to rebut! Suffice it to say you are incorrect. The early church revered the Blessed Mother, and this was affirmed in the early Church Councils. The reformation did not come at a time when people were "allowed" to read the Scriptures. At the time of the Reformation, the majority of people were still illiterate. In fact, universal literacy in the West was not achieved until early in the last century. Nowhere in the Doctrines of Holy Mother church are there instructions or dogmas to pray to the Saints. The Mass is celebrated every single day, not once a year. The priest dosen't have the "power" to do anything. He has the faculties to act as the conduit between God and the people, as per Scripture and the Traditions of the Faith. The Bible is the book of the Church, and it was the Church which existed first. There is much more you are incorrect on, but those are the major ones.

When were the Early church councils? And when were the Epistles written? Which one reveres Mary? Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus' brothers were immacutely conceived?

When Jesus was told that his mother and brothers were here----what did he say? Why did he call Mary "woman"?

The bread (which must be wheaten, and which is unleavened in the Latin, Armenian and Ethiopic Rites, but is leavened in most Eastern Rites) and wine (which must be from grapes) used in the Eucharistic rite are, in Catholic faith, transformed in all but appearance into the Body and Blood of Christ, a change that is called transubstantiation. Only a bishop or priest is enabled to be a minister of the Eucharist, acting in the person of Christ himself. -----Wikipedia

"Only a priest can consecrate bread and wine so they become the body and blood of Christ."

http://www.osv.com/OSV4MeNav/MyCatholicFai...19/Default.aspx

"The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation." Pg. 347, #1376.

[Xman]

The Bible is the book of the Church, and it was the Church which existed first. There is much more you are incorrect on, but those are the major ones.

This is where you lost me. To which church do you refer? Not the Catholic church. It was schismed into existence during the 11th century. The birth of Constantine's church was the 4th century. James' church existed in Jerusalem just after the crucifixion.

[fcgv]

CAPITOLS MY REPLY..

When were the Early church councils? And when were the Epistles written? Which one reveres Mary? Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus' brothers were immacutely conceived?

JESUS DID NOT HAVE BROTHERS.

When Jesus was told that his mother and brothers were here----what did he say? Why did he call Mary "woman"?

IT WOULD TAKE TOO LONG TO DO AN EXEGESIS FOR YOU, BUT I ASSURE YOU YOUR ALREADY DISPLAY A LACK OF KNOWLEDGE ON BIBLICAL AND HISTORICAL TEXTS.

"Only a priest can consecrate bread and wine so they become the body and blood of Christ."

http://www.osv.com/OSV4MeNav/MyCatholicFai...19/Default.aspx

"The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation." Pg. 347, #1376.

WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. I AM VERY FAMILIAR WITH CATHOLIC THEOLOGY AND THE ROLE OF THE SACERDOTAL MINISTRY, TRUST ME. WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING YOU, I CAN I ASSURE I KNOW MORE ABOUT THE CHURCH AND THE PRIESTHOOD THAN YOU DO, SINCE IT IS, IN EFFECT, MY EMPLOYER.

[jefferiah]

CAPITOLS MY REPLY..

When were the Early church councils? And when were the Epistles written? Which one reveres Mary? Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus' brothers were immacutely conceived?

JESUS DID NOT HAVE BROTHERS.

When Jesus was told that his mother and brothers were here----what did he say? Why did he call Mary "woman"?

IT WOULD TAKE TOO LONG TO DO AN EXEGESIS FOR YOU, BUT I ASSURE YOU YOUR ALREADY DISPLAY A LACK OF KNOWLEDGE ON BIBLICAL AND HISTORICAL TEXTS.

"Only a priest can consecrate bread and wine so they become the body and blood of Christ."

http://www.osv.com/OSV4MeNav/MyCatholicFai...19/Default.aspx

"The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation." Pg. 347, #1376.

WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID. I AM VERY FAMILIAR WITH CATHOLIC THEOLOGY AND THE ROLE OF THE SACERDOTAL MINISTRY, TRUST ME. WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING YOU, I CAN I ASSURE I KNOW MORE ABOUT THE CHURCH AND THE PRIESTHOOD THAN YOU DO, SINCE IT IS, IN EFFECT, MY EMPLOYER.

So basically you agree that a Priest and only a priest can in effect transform bread and wine into the actual body and blood of Jesus?

[fcgv]

So basically you agree that a Priest and only a priest can in effect transform bread and wine into the actual body and blood of Jesus?

Basically, yes. Of course I do.